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Talking of Right Speech ...

2

Comments

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Tee hee!
    Words are what we use here but ...
    Giggerish (a form of intentional gibberish) gets beyond the conscious mind, as do stories, pictures, poetry ...

    Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    I may not agree with what a person says to me, but I do gain understanding of their perspective if they are good at communicating. What they think is true might not match up to what I think is true, but I can respect someone who puts some thought into their beliefs and knows how to talk about them. True, no matter how you say something doesn't mean the receiver will truly listen. But at least then you are putting forth your words out of a good intention. You can't control how they are received, but the better job you do of forming your words well, the better the chances they are considered.

    lobster
  • when it comes to speech, i encourage everyone to read john ralston saul's book "unconscious civilization". in the anglo world it is increasingly difficult to communicate effectively because many no longer understand the natural meaning of words, people have word triggers for memes in the heads, or themes, but rarely think about what is said or written in a direct way. he discusses how this has been created by our mainstream civilization and how it is part of why things are going awry.if you are brave go on and read his book "voltaire's bastards" he is more insightfull than most buddhists.

    anyway i personally am tied of being told you can't ask questions by buddhists. of course i used to be a trial lawyer--so i was used to asking detailed and difficult questions.

  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited April 22

    @federica said:
    We don't do 'sombre' and 'anally retentive' around here.... everything presented has an undercurrent of joy and mirth.

    Except Godwin's law it appears :angry:

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited April 22

    @ollaimh said:

    anyway i personally am tied of being told you can't ask questions by buddhists. of course i used to be a trial lawyer--so i was used to asking detailed and difficult questions.

    I have an easy question for you. Will you be able to ask a question with Right Speech? Look forward to difficult questions. B) Do you have all the answers 'we Buddhists' require? Hope so ... :)

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    This Buddhist has never told anyone to not ask questions. Fire away. I'm tired of being lumped in with so many negative experience of other Buddhists. Especially when most of that is probably happening online which complicates that communication we are supposed to be reading books about to comprehend. :surprised:

    lobsterdhammachick
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @ollaimh said:...anyway i personally am tied of being told you can't ask questions by buddhists. of course i used to be a trial lawyer--so i was used to asking detailed and difficult questions.

    yes, but forget your manners, and this court will eject you.
    Please be so good as to NOT lump all Buddhists under the banner of being uncooperative.
    As a lawyer, I would expect you to choose your terminology more precisely.
    My husband, who has a 1st Class Honours in Law, has certainly learnt the art of both tact and diplomacy.
    Might I suggest, my learned friend, you apply the same exacting standards?
    There appears to be a distinct lack of same, in the above.
    One rests one's case.

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    Not being allowed to ask questions, really? Must have been a particularly quiet temple or something, or perhaps you asked one of the questions which the Buddha refused to answer (there are only a few, and you can still ask them, you just won't get an answer from the Canon).

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited April 23

    Many thaks everyone,

    As part of my 'right listening' Right Speech, I am looking for news sources offering me a different bubble. I removed the BBC News app - yep it had no ads but was very partial to pseudo independence. Lately tried the Apple News app - too American/Consumerist. Just found 'Upworthy' which has a 'being well' section ...
    https://www.upworthy.com/being-well

    Of course I am still in a news aggregate loop but it may work out ... B)

  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    @ollaimh said:
    anyway i personally am tied of being told you can't ask questions by buddhists. of course i used to be a trial lawyer--so i was used to asking detailed and difficult questions.

    I'm not sure what you're referring to here; what kind of questions? I always ask lots of questions when receiving a teaching. Some of the teachings are framed very simplistically, while life is much more complex than that, so I ask probing questions to clarify the principles being presented. The teachers usually have ready responses, which indicates that questions such as mine have arisen before, and are anticipated.

    Something tells me you have in mind questions about other aspects of life in the sangha...

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Recidivist Samsarist Veteran

    @ollaimh said:
    anyway i personally am tied of being told you can't ask questions by buddhists. of course i used to be a trial lawyer--so i was used to asking detailed and difficult questions.

    Buddhism lays a strong emphasis on the use of reason and self-inquiry.
    I have never come across a Buddhist teacher who discouraged questioning, except when the question was self-evident or superfluous.

    HozanTraveller
  • @federica said:

    @ollaimh said:...anyway i personally am tied of being told you can't ask questions by buddhists. of course i used to be a trial lawyer--so i was used to asking detailed and difficult questions.

    yes, but forget your manners, and this court will eject you.
    Please be so good as to NOT lump all Buddhists under the banner of being uncooperative.
    As a lawyer, I would expect you to choose your terminology more precisely.
    My husband, who has a 1st Class Honours in Law, has certainly learnt the art of both tact and diplomacy.
    Might I suggest, my learned friend, you apply the same exacting standards?
    There appears to be a distinct lack of same, in the above.
    One rests one's case.

    i am not tactfull in anglo culture terms, and also tired of that demand.and likely will never be tactful. demanding tact is a large part of anglo privledge, frankly. i grew up with frano gaels. we say what we mean. openly and spend little time being pissed of at other people's foibles. lots of talk about everybodies business and almost no nastiness or criticism. not class bigoted cultures, not much racism(both of which are defining characteristics of anglo culture).i have to say. spend some time in montreal or north nova scotia and you'll see.

    but without putting in the usual time at the feet of teachers i get invited to go to senior teachings. been told by several great teachers i don't have the multiple layers of personality that most of their north american students have. that kind of tact is largely an ego defence.

    that tact is what makes terrible trial lawyers. as to buddhists that's for others to decide.

    it may be obvious i have decided. it took me years to realize that many anglos spend a lot of thought time on minutia of what people had said. i spend lots of thought time on poems, musical instruments and how to re jig a harp. never understood not having hands on creative activities. it must be incredibly boring.

    i think you are protesting too much

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Do you like when others lump you into broad categories with assigned stereotypes? Because that is what you are doing. There is a big difference between speaking intelligently while saying what you think, and using "I say what I think" as an excuse to be rude. Things such as tact serve a purpose, and if you want anyone to hear your point, it's good to exercise some of those things. Or at least look at what Right Speech is and see whether what you say actually follows along with that theme.

    DhammaDragonVastmindHozanlobster
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Recidivist Samsarist Veteran

    The world is broader than your stereotypes, @ollaimh.
    Buddhism is beyond stereotypes, and so is this forum.
    We go by behaviour here, not by biases and prejudices.

    VastmindHozan
  • well my point is that i am disagreeing. it is my repeat experience that almost everything in anglo culture(and germanics btw) is about establishing status and power over others and that those who do this then project that attempt onto those they are trying to establish their status over(with talk like sterotypes--i hasten to point out that all sociology social history psychology and philosophy can be attacked as using sterotypes--but that's a deeply flawed critique of those disciplines). i repeat that john ralston saul's book "unconscious civilization" is more insightfull than most buddhist writtings. five hundred years of anglo military capitalism have robbed most people including most buddhists, the ability to see the shallowness of their understanding, even robbed them of the language necessary to understand this.

    which comes back to wrong speech as being used as a tool to stop insightfull critical awareness. although i am not a fan of foucault's conclusions, a trip into his deconstuctionism is helpfull to start to see the process as well.

    deep intellectual understanding is very helpfull in developing real insight. then ya gotta forget it for direct awareness.

    we don't need buddhist chruches.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited April 27

    Deleted.

    I can't even....

    DhammaDragonkarasti
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited April 27

    @ollaimh then I am curious why you are here. This is, after all, a Buddhist page that focuses on Buddhist teachings, not intellectualism and non-Buddhist teachings. If you are here to "school" us you are in the wrong place I'm afraid.

    dhammachickHozan
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Recidivist Samsarist Veteran

    Oh my Buddha...
    I'm holding my dragons here... O.o

  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @ollaimh said:

    @federica said:

    @ollaimh said:...anyway i personally am tied of being told you can't ask questions by buddhists. of course i used to be a trial lawyer--so i was used to asking detailed and difficult questions.

    yes, but forget your manners, and this court will eject you.
    Please be so good as to NOT lump all Buddhists under the banner of being uncooperative.
    As a lawyer, I would expect you to choose your terminology more precisely.
    My husband, who has a 1st Class Honours in Law, has certainly learnt the art of both tact and diplomacy.
    Might I suggest, my learned friend, you apply the same exacting standards?
    There appears to be a distinct lack of same, in the above.
    One rests one's case.

    i am not tactfull in anglo culture terms, and also tired of that demand.and likely will never be tactful. demanding tact is a large part of anglo privledge, frankly. i grew up with frano gaels. we say what we mean. openly and spend little time being pissed of at other people's foibles. lots of talk about everybodies business and almost no nastiness or criticism. not class bigoted cultures, not much racism(both of which are defining characteristics of anglo culture).i have to say. spend some time in montreal or north nova scotia and you'll see.

    but without putting in the usual time at the feet of teachers i get invited to go to senior teachings. been told by several great teachers i don't have the multiple layers of personality that most of their north american students have. that kind of tact is largely an ego defence.

    that tact is what makes terrible trial lawyers. as to buddhists that's for others to decide.

    it may be obvious i have decided. it took me years to realize that many anglos spend a lot of thought time on minutia of what people had said. i spend lots of thought time on poems, musical instruments and how to re jig a harp. never understood not having hands on creative activities. it must be incredibly boring.

    i think you are protesting too much

    Oh FFS :dizzy:

    lobsterDhammaDragonkarasti
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @ollaimh said:
    well my point is that i am disagreeing. it is my repeat experience that almost everything in anglo culture(and germanics btw) is about establishing status and power over others and that those who do this then project that attempt onto those they are trying to establish their status over(with talk like sterotypes--i hasten to point out that all sociology social history psychology and philosophy can be attacked as using sterotypes--but that's a deeply flawed critique of those disciplines). i repeat that john ralston saul's book "unconscious civilization" is more insightfull than most buddhist writtings. five hundred years of anglo military capitalism have robbed most people including most buddhists, the ability to see the shallowness of their understanding, even robbed them of the language necessary to understand this.

    which comes back to wrong speech as being used as a tool to stop insightfull critical awareness. although i am not a fan of foucault's conclusions, a trip into his deconstuctionism is helpfull to start to see the process as well.

    deep intellectual understanding is very helpfull in developing real insight. then ya gotta forget it for direct awareness.

    we don't need buddhist chruches.

    I'm not even. I can see this going downhill pretty rapidly, so I'm going to put a halt to any further nonsense.

    Goodbye and thanks (so much) for all the fish.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited April 28

    Dragons can barbecue fish. Troll cooked in own juices by @federica. Popcorn all around. Yum. o:)

    dhammachickDhammaDragonkarastiVastmind
  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    That popcorn image really Is testing my attachment to popcorn!

    dhammachickHozanlobster
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @lobster said:

    It is not what we say but how it is heard.

    what we hear/read is our own perceptions
    and
    we response to our own perceptions

    check again what we have written and why we have written it in this thread

    that would become the mirror to see our own reflection
    and
    to know whether we used right speech (written response)

    ShoshinmosquitoDhammaDragonFosdick
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Recidivist Samsarist Veteran

    @lobster said:
    It is not what we say but how it is heard.

    upekka
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Part of our capacity is mis-hearing (similar to the euphemism used by politicians for lying) ...

    Mis-hearing, is listening out for what someone only minimally intended but is more fruitful to hear. In a similar way if skilful, we can mis-speak in such a way it potentially draws out the Truth from others (throw your good reputation out the window Bodhisattvas) ...
    http://somathread.ning.com/groups/sufi/forum/the-path-of-blame

    Fosdick
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @lobster said:
    Part of our capacity is mis-hearing (similar to the euphemism used by politicians for lying) ...

    No, The political euphemism for lying is 'being economical with the Truth'.... One of the wonderful lines that will go down in History. As, similarly, will -

    "The wrong kind of snow" and

    (On hearing that there was a hurricane on the way) ..."Don't worry, there isn't..." (LFW category)

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    The euphemism is the misuse of the word misspoke ...
    https://peskytruth.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/i-misspoke-and-other-lies/

    I must be unmistaken ;)

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    I also think it is true that most of us don't listen for the sake of listening but rather solely for the chance to respond. This has been really hard to start working away from, for me. There are times I am reading something and the itch to respond before I even finish reading is awful. When it happens, now I pause, slow my mind down, finish reading and then take a bit to determine if I am going to respond at all. We tend to jump on anything we disagree with as a chance to hold up what we think/believe but with little attempt at actual engaged listening. It happens a lot in person, too. When I am out and about I constantly hear people interrupt each other, because what they have to say is clearly more important than the other person. I see parents do this to children constantly.

    lobsterShoshinFosdick
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Exactly @karasti

    We live increasingly in societies that seem love and attention starved. It is the capacity to give attention rather than demand it, that results in some of the 'spooky powers' of the Bodhisattva.
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jun/21/attention-factor-oliver-burkeman-this-column-change-your-life

    karastiShoshinDhammaDragon
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Recidivist Samsarist Veteran

    This meme pretty much sums up my attitude concerning Right Speech, lol :p

    lobsterHozanShoshin
  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    @lobster. There are many lonely and unheard people in our human family. Sometimes I wonder how many have yet to be heard. Despairing of that hearing ever happening. I try to take time to listen.

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Thanks @grackle

    I feel some of us are starting to listen and appreciate this alternative perceptual stream. During meditation we start listening to our myriad/monkey selves. Our doubts, our noise and eventually our calm. It is that calm that can be unfolded into our daily life and listening ...

    Iz plan.

    Shoshin
  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    @lobster. From that calm flows the deepest metta. To fold all who suffer into our thought stream.

    DhammaDragonShoshinlobster
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Recidivist Samsarist Veteran

    @grackle said:
    @lobster. There are many lonely and unheard people in our human family. Sometimes I wonder how many have yet to be heard. Despairing of that hearing ever happening. I try to take time to listen.

    I see that all the time: in public transports, at the supermarket, in shops...
    So many people strike up conversation, especially aged people, with any silly excuse.
    I can feel they are starved for affection, for someone to listen... anyone.
    Honestly, how hard can it be to simply stop for five or ten minutes and simply listen to them, smile, chit chat?

    lobster
  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    @DhammaDragon said:

    @grackle said:
    @lobster. There are many lonely and unheard people in our human family. Sometimes I wonder how many have yet to be heard. Despairing of that hearing ever happening. I try to take time to listen.

    I see that all the time: in public transports, at the supermarket, in shops...
    So many people strike up conversation, especially aged people, with any silly excuse.

    I can feel they are starved for affection, for someone to listen... anyone.
    Honestly, how hard can it be to simply stop for five or ten minutes and simply listen to them, smile, chit chat?

    Does one need an excuse? I've done that all my life. Where I'm from, it's considered just being neighborly. It's normal. I think it would be a rather sad world without it.

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Recidivist Samsarist Veteran

    In Switzerland people are cold, individualistic and do not usually welcome contact.
    It is not really normal, @Dakini

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited May 20

    Living in a small town, that is just a normal part of life. You know all your neighbors and most of their family history and almost everyone else in town, too. You check on each other and you help them (for no cost) if you have the ability and skills to do so. Sometime I admit I get irritated when I am in a hurry and the cashier and customer spend 5 minutes talking about Mimi's gastric disturbances. But I try to remember that we are lucky to have so many people who know and care, and the uniqueness of it makes me smile even if I am impatient. It is entirely normal to see cars stopped in the middle of the road, windows rolled down, the drivers chatting away, lol. There are pros and cons to small town living, but having connections to almost everyone is a major benefit. We watch each other's house when we are gone, we keep an eye on each other's kids and pets, we look out for each other and we depend on each other. When you live in an out-of-the way place, you have no choice. Some times each other is all you have and you keep everyone close because of that. Because everyone runs into tough times, and you have to trust each other and it's much easier to trust people who aren't strangers. So you never let it come to that.

    The down side to that is outsiders/newcomers take a very long time to earn that level of trust. Generations.

    Edited to add that despite all the neighborliness, it is more out of obligation and duty rather than warmth. There are a lot of Hatfield and MacCoy "who wronged who" types of feuds and a lot of passive-agggressiveness. But when it comes down to it, people will help you and look out for you, even if mostly to give themselves credit for doing so, lol.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited May 20

    @DhammaDragon said:
    In Switzerland people are cold, individualistic and do not usually welcome contact.
    It is not really normal, @Dakini

    I was saying that where I'm from, it's normal. It definitely was not normal in Seattle, for example. In the South of the US, it very much is. It really depends on regional or national culture. And yes, I've heard that about Switzerland, and also--Scandinavia.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Dana =Generosity = Thoughts Words & Deeds = Time = Patience :)

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    Here in the Netherlands sometimes people will just call out to you on the street and call you darling. Loosely translated of course. Chit chat at bus stops and in public places is kind of uncommon but it happens, and cafe's if you go regularly become an open forum.

  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @grackle said:
    @DhammaDragon. The world is our way place. An old Chinese monk once told me that if your heart/mind is open you can hear the world crying. I was doubtful. But some years later early in the morning on a bitterly cold day with an inky black sky filled with bright stars I heard the cries of the world. It shook me to my core. From that point forward I ceased to doubt the legitimacy of the Bodhisattva vows.

    @grackle please say more if you can. Your post really struck a chord with me. Thank you so much for sharing. Why is the world crying? Because of what we do to it?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited May 21

    I have sensed that as well. It is an interesting thing. Just like our brains are huge networks, so is, I think, consciousness. More things than we have tended to believe have consciousness of some sort. I found this article intriguing
    http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2011/09/06/9-11-and-global-consciousness/

    HozanFosdick
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Hozan said:

    @grackle said:
    @DhammaDragon. The world is our way place. An old Chinese monk once told me that if your heart/mind is open you can hear the world crying. I was doubtful. But some years later early in the morning on a bitterly cold day with an inky black sky filled with bright stars I heard the cries of the world. It shook me to my core. From that point forward I ceased to doubt the legitimacy of the Bodhisattva vows.

    @grackle please say more if you can. Your post really struck a chord with me. Thank you so much for sharing. Why is the world crying? Because of what we do to it?

    The world is crying because it has not been free of any war for thousands of years...
    Of the past 3,400 years, humans have been entirely at peace for only 268 of them, or just 8 percent of recorded history. At least 108 million people were killed in wars in the twentieth century alone. (Source, NY Times, 2003. So even this data is - outdated...)

    Couple that with the number of murders, assaults domestic violences, crimes against humanity, crimes and abuse against women, crimes and abuse against children, people trafficking, drug trafficking, corruption in high and low places, extortion, theft, fraud and just downright not seeing eye to eye with your neighbour.

    This makes for sobering - not to say utterly depressing - reading...

    Hozan
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    I always loved this poem. It gives me goosebumps!

    what they did yesterday afternoon

    by warsan shire

    they set my aunts house on fire
    i cried the way women on tv do
    folding at the middle
    like a five pound note.
    i called the boy who use to love me
    tried to ‘okay’ my voice
    i said hello
    he said warsan, what’s wrong, what’s happened?

    i’ve been praying,
    and these are what my prayers look like;
    dear god
    i come from two countries
    one is thirsty
    the other is on fire
    both need water.

    later that night
    i held an atlas in my lap
    ran my fingers across the whole world
    and whispered
    where does it hurt?

    it answered
    everywhere
    everywhere
    everywhere.

    federicaFosdick
  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    @Hozan. What we do to the world we do to ourselves. When jungle trees are harvested the life they supported no longer has a home. When unknown peoples can no longer hide from fortune seekers they are enslaved. Precious life is traded and sold. We are a family of beings who communicate in so many ways but that of the heart. In the state where I reside animals are held to be without a spirit so when animals are set on fire or dropped off in the desert to die simply because they became an inconvenience who speaks for the voiceless? Certainly not those who wield the levers of power. I didn't made to get on a soapbox but I did.

  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @grackle said:
    @Hozan. What we do to the world we do to ourselves. When jungle trees are harvested the life they supported no longer has a home. When unknown peoples can no longer hide from fortune seekers they are enslaved. Precious life is traded and sold. We are a family of beings who communicate in so many ways but that of the heart. In the state where I reside animals are held to be without a spirit so when animals are set on fire or dropped off in the desert to die simply because they became an inconvenience who speaks for the voiceless? Certainly not those who wield the levers of power. I didn't made to get on a soapbox but I did.

    What humans do to the world is awful. No other species causes as much death, pollution or suffering as our species does. We would do well to remember that humans need the world. The world does not need humans.

    Fosdick
  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    What we do to each other is equally horrible. Perhaps in some part because as we become hardened to the suffering of those without with a voice our good hearts die yet another death. Until a reverence for life winds up as an antique view.

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