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I think the only reason I felt strongly about it is because I (only more recently) have seen first hand how these things work (ie a bit more now) so and hence... but your points are well made and I understand them completely and do not agree out of hand, but just balancing it with my own views/experience (as we all do here)
And as always, at least for moi, when it comes to the situation in real life, I would evaluate based on individual cases/circumstances so my own theory is not set in stone per se - but here on forums I think mainly we can only speak on a generic level and thus talk principles.
Anyway, no offence intended, and thankyou for being so gracious. And as always for your thoughtful, and open presence on these Boards.
I am aware that in many Asian countries it is a custom to visit temples on special holidays and occasion to visit temples and offer donations to support people in the holy life . But in the West most people go to Church instead of Monasteries. Only meditators or practitioners go. At the moment it can be difficult for the monastics. But since many of us prefer the system of donation and making dhamma freely available to anyone, it is a good idea to let the monastics and committee that is managing the temple know. This way we start off on the right foot and develop from there. Otherwise, once the paying system takes root and the donation system ignored, it will be difficult to get it back later on.
Personally, when there is a set price people pay just that and no more. Sometimes it gives rise to a scornful feeling.
When it is based on generosity, people give and feel happy when they contribute. Sometimes they give even more than the service require.
Of course, there are times when people don't give as much as they can.
Examples of places that remain true to the donation system is Goenka retreats. They seem to be doing fine.
In some temples, the committee have a restaurant and tea shop where visitors can have vegetarian meals or go to the tea shop to have snacks & drinks , discuss dharma or read books. These services can be base on the pay system. It makes the visitors experience more pleasant and the funds raised can contribute to the running cost of the temple and monastic. It offers a great opportunity for lay people to volunteer and do good deeds as an expression of metta.
Personally, I wanted the monasteries in the west to start out with the donation system ( when it comes to dhamma) and continue to develop from there . It is also in accordance with the early vinaya.
I think they (the centres and monasteries) are the ones with the actual experience whereas we (no offence intended) are kind of like an affable Peanut Gallery. (at least I am in it) So despite our preferences and ideas, perhaps for those whom feel so strongly about it, can discuss this with their local centres - but at least also with a view to listening with an open mind.
Also, the models discussed in this thread are actually in operation all around the world so it seems cool (at least to me ) that the centres are free to run it the way they want. But each center may have a different objective, way of training (or no training), circumstances, donors etc so I do not believe this one belief formula, is feasible nor fair to any center.
I think the only reason I felt strongly about it is because I (only more recently) have seen first hand how these things work (ie a bit more now) so and hence... but your points are well made and I understand them completely and do not agree out of hand, but just balancing it with my own views/experience (as we all do here)
And as always, at least for moi, when it comes to the situation in real life, I would evaluate based on individual cases/circumstances so my own theory is not set in stone per se - but here on forums I think mainly we can only speak on a generic level and thus talk principles.
Anyway, no offence intended, and thankyou for being so gracious. And as always for your thoughtful, and open presence on these Boards.
_/\_
Abu
And I do understand the problem. I was a school principal for years, and there were always shortages of funds. Fortunately, we had public financing for the basics. But sometimes for the nice things we wanted to add we had to either get our PTA to fund-raise or just not do them.
It's unfortunate that a group of individuals practicing the path of renunciation laid down by the Buddha should engage in the pursuit of worldly gain in such a way. If you really feel that you must go to these people and pay them $150 to take the precepts then by all means you should do it. However, it might be worth telling you that you absolutely do not have to go to a temple and undergo a ceremony to retain the precepts especially if it costs $150. If you want to take the precepts, all you have to do is, before you get out of bed in the morning, make the determination that you are going to refrain from committing certain acts, say it aloud if you have to, and then throughout the day maintain the mindfulness necessary to prevent you from performing those actions. There are no rituals or ceremonies needed. Taking the precepts is simply an act of recognition of what is unwholesome, and what is wholesome, and the determination to abandon what is unwholesome, and cultivate what is wholesome. It is not meant to be heavy, dreary, or serious. It is meant to be lighthearted, and uplifting. Please remember that the practice of Buddhism is fun. It's about learning to be happy.
I am about to take my precepts soon. I am attending to a Zen Buddhist Temple in Canada... They charge fee for precept cerenomy. I wonder if this is normal. Sure I understand they need money to operate but everything should be based on donations. Especially, a special occasion like "precept taking ceremony" should be charge-free in my opinion. Now I have a well paying full time job, so to me it doesn't matter, but a lot of students/unemployed people cannot afford it ($150)...So it kind of bothers me...PS: I know that they still charge unemployed/students but with a discount ($120)... I really like my teacher, her style resinated with me and I am comfortable with her but this fee issue is bugging me... Anybody who wants to become a Buddhist and wants to take the precepts should do so without a fee charge... What do you guys think?
Being predominately Theravadin, none of the sitting groups I belonged to or monasteries that I visited ever charged for teachings or refuge ceremonies; although they always accepted donations and some lay-groups did charge fees for retreats (mainly to cover for room and board). This is mostly due to the tradition in Theravada that the Dhamma should be given as a gift for free, which is also the reasons why most books written by monastics are given away for free, the cost of printing being paid via donations by generous lay-followers.
That doesn't mean I think it's necessarily wrong for a group to charge a fee to help with the upkeep of their centre or to compensate a teacher for their time, however. These things can be quite expensive, and sometimes donations might not be enough to keep the lights on. But I do think think that charging for a simply refuge taking ceremony, and charging more than $100 no less, is extremely odd, and I personally wouldn't shell out that much money for something so simple and that's normally done for free elsewhere.
Moreover, as others have already pointed out, one can practice Buddhism without going through some ritual conversion; one just has to mainly focus on three things: (1) observing the precepts, (2) practicing meditation and (3) developing insight. You can go through all the external motions if you want (i.e., going to a temple and formally taking refuge and receiving the precepts or doing it in front of a Buddha statue at home), but it's not really a requirement. I'm sure that there are some Buddhists who consider taking refuge to be a prerequisite for calling oneself a Buddhist, but you probably won't find too many of those around here.
I've attended special ceremonies, one or two-day affairs. In TB sanghas, it's not unusual to have a lama flown in from India to perform a specialized ceremony. This, obviously, incurs a major expense for the sangha management--the international airfare, visa fees, etc. So there's usually a stiff fee. On one occasion, I wasn't able to pay the full fee, and I said so, but there was no pressure. They said to pay what you can. But there have also been occasions when the lama performing the ceremony was local, and it seemed that the management was using the occasion to make money, they were assuming everyone was affluent, and could afford to drop $150 or $200 for a day or two. I'm really uncomfortable with this assumption that Westerners are all rolling in more money than they know what to do with, and can be used as cash cows. The right thing to do is to allow those of modest means to pay a modest fee upon request.
That said, I think it's unjustifiable to charge anything, let alone $150, just for someone to take refuge. I agree with vinlyn; temples should sustain themselves by cultivating sponsors, and from donations from the membership. Offering classes for a fee also is valid, if the fee is reasonable.
I asked a Zen monk friend about this and he hadn't heard about precept ceremony fees at the Zen centre/monastery he attends though I know there are other fees and special ceremony costs.
Nevertheless again I just think it really is up to the Center and I would be wary to pass judgement without knowing and seeing the place/setup/fees etc I think the best we can do on internet forums is casual chat and judgements but to take them too seriously without knowing the place/people/circumstances etc might be a bit too much.
I'm confused at the complaint about freedom of opinion. :-/ I think it is far more educational when different view points are expressed. I don't see that as attacking anyone.
@vinlyn I don't see it as attacking someone's views for being different. I see it more as exchanging experiences. Some of us here have no experience with the problems faced by the temple administration, and some of us do. Those who have experienced these problems see the logic and rationale of having fixed fees on certain ceremonies or functions. Therefore we share so we let one another in on the pitfalls.
I'll use myself as an example. I used to be of the mind that all temple functions are to be offered free as a service to the community by the temple, and I firmly held the belief that the temple has to be sustained on the donations of the participants of the temple. Until one year I was voted into the temple administration committee. I voluntarily agreed to taking up the post of the committee member, because I felt that volunteering my time and effort would be more beneficial than just my donations.
During that time I finally realized the importance of fixing a price on many things. We had quite a huge overhead. The rental and utilities alone took up 70% of our overheads, because where I come from temples are not charged residential rates for utilities and rental. We were charged industrial rates, which were at least 150% of the residential rates. Then there were costs of food and drink to the nuns, the general living logistics like detergent and soap and so on. My temple had classes, so we had to worry about printing, and so on. And since we were a temple, we had to think about the altar and the offerings, like lamp oil, fruits, incense, etc. It was a huge amount.
It was then that I finally saw the logic of having subscribing members and yearly renewal memberships. At the very least there was a steady yearly income where we can budget out for the year. And it was out of necessity we charged for the classes, because it took the cost of the teaching materials and other miscellaneous expenditure out of our books. Not to forget that we also had a group of 4 or 5 sponsors who helped the temple pay for stuff and got the logistics we needed when there was not enough to go around. At the end of the financial year any profit from the collections of donations and so on the temple would spend it on the elderly, the needy and the homeless. As a result of the positive feedback of our programs, we try to earn more and more profit so we can help more people with the profit we earn. The temple administration takes nothing from the profits. Not even a single cent.
So yes I can empathize with your ideals, because I had those ideals too. But when you get to see the troubles first hand, you'll understand why fees are a necessity.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Christian churches depend on donations, they have an offering portion of the service though where they pass the hat around. Putting the offering bowl right in someones face would probably generate more donations. I wonder if that would be feasible in a Buddhist temple, or if it'd just be tacky?
Homeboys don't take sheet seriously, and may even take things for granted if everything is free!
Paying the temple a fee, you get merits by practicing giving, you support da temple so the monastics can live, sheet get maintained and more $ available for Dharma propagation!
Stop being selfish know wat im sayin?
If the practice is dat important to you homeboys, you don't wanna part ya $ foe it?! dammmm
A Buddhist temple shouldnt charge a set fee. They would ask for 'any' donation that you could spare...(if you couldnt then they should understand)
Anyone that asks for money upfront or fees etc etc stay CLEAR.
Best wishes on your path.
(ps, for anyone who wishes to address a comment to myself. PM me, becuase i only comment once on questions and never look back on threads. Im not into debates, arguements etc etc..I just try and answer the question as honest and helpful as i can)
Comments
I think the only reason I felt strongly about it is because I (only more recently) have seen first hand how these things work (ie a bit more now) so and hence... but your points are well made and I understand them completely and do not agree out of hand, but just balancing it with my own views/experience (as we all do here)
And as always, at least for moi, when it comes to the situation in real life, I would evaluate based on individual cases/circumstances so my own theory is not set in stone per se - but here on forums I think mainly we can only speak on a generic level and thus talk principles.
Anyway, no offence intended, and thankyou for being so gracious. And as always for your thoughtful, and open presence on these Boards.
_/\_
Abu
Personally, when there is a set price people pay just that and no more. Sometimes it gives rise to a scornful feeling.
When it is based on generosity, people give and feel happy when they contribute. Sometimes they give even more than the service require.
Of course, there are times when people don't give as much as they can.
Examples of places that remain true to the donation system is Goenka retreats. They seem to be doing fine.
In some temples, the committee have a restaurant and tea shop where visitors can have vegetarian meals or go to the tea shop to have snacks & drinks , discuss dharma or read books. These services can be base on the pay system. It makes the visitors experience more pleasant and the funds raised can contribute to the running cost of the temple and monastic. It offers a great opportunity for lay people to volunteer and do good deeds as an expression of metta.
Personally, I wanted the monasteries in the west to start out with the donation system ( when it comes to dhamma) and continue to develop from there . It is also in accordance with the early vinaya.
With metta,
Also, the models discussed in this thread are actually in operation all around the world so it seems cool (at least to me
Best wishes,
Abu
I see the dilemma.
And you're a great poster!
:wave:
That doesn't mean I think it's necessarily wrong for a group to charge a fee to help with the upkeep of their centre or to compensate a teacher for their time, however. These things can be quite expensive, and sometimes donations might not be enough to keep the lights on. But I do think think that charging for a simply refuge taking ceremony, and charging more than $100 no less, is extremely odd, and I personally wouldn't shell out that much money for something so simple and that's normally done for free elsewhere.
Moreover, as others have already pointed out, one can practice Buddhism without going through some ritual conversion; one just has to mainly focus on three things: (1) observing the precepts, (2) practicing meditation and (3) developing insight. You can go through all the external motions if you want (i.e., going to a temple and formally taking refuge and receiving the precepts or doing it in front of a Buddha statue at home), but it's not really a requirement. I'm sure that there are some Buddhists who consider taking refuge to be a prerequisite for calling oneself a Buddhist, but you probably won't find too many of those around here.
That said, I think it's unjustifiable to charge anything, let alone $150, just for someone to take refuge. I agree with vinlyn; temples should sustain themselves by cultivating sponsors, and from donations from the membership. Offering classes for a fee also is valid, if the fee is reasonable.
Nevertheless again I just think it really is up to the Center and I would be wary to pass judgement without knowing and seeing the place/setup/fees etc I think the best we can do on internet forums is casual chat and judgements
Many thanks.
Well wishes,
Abu
I think it is far more educational when different view points are expressed. I don't see that as attacking anyone.
I'll use myself as an example. I used to be of the mind that all temple functions are to be offered free as a service to the community by the temple, and I firmly held the belief that the temple has to be sustained on the donations of the participants of the temple. Until one year I was voted into the temple administration committee. I voluntarily agreed to taking up the post of the committee member, because I felt that volunteering my time and effort would be more beneficial than just my donations.
During that time I finally realized the importance of fixing a price on many things. We had quite a huge overhead. The rental and utilities alone took up 70% of our overheads, because where I come from temples are not charged residential rates for utilities and rental. We were charged industrial rates, which were at least 150% of the residential rates. Then there were costs of food and drink to the nuns, the general living logistics like detergent and soap and so on. My temple had classes, so we had to worry about printing, and so on. And since we were a temple, we had to think about the altar and the offerings, like lamp oil, fruits, incense, etc. It was a huge amount.
It was then that I finally saw the logic of having subscribing members and yearly renewal memberships. At the very least there was a steady yearly income where we can budget out for the year. And it was out of necessity we charged for the classes, because it took the cost of the teaching materials and other miscellaneous expenditure out of our books. Not to forget that we also had a group of 4 or 5 sponsors who helped the temple pay for stuff and got the logistics we needed when there was not enough to go around. At the end of the financial year any profit from the collections of donations and so on the temple would spend it on the elderly, the needy and the homeless. As a result of the positive feedback of our programs, we try to earn more and more profit so we can help more people with the profit we earn. The temple administration takes nothing from the profits. Not even a single cent.
So yes I can empathize with your ideals, because I had those ideals too. But when you get to see the troubles first hand, you'll understand why fees are a necessity.
Paying the temple a fee, you get merits by practicing giving, you support da temple so the monastics can live, sheet get maintained and more $ available for Dharma propagation!
Stop being selfish know wat im sayin?
If the practice is dat important to you homeboys, you don't wanna part ya $ foe it?! dammmm
A Buddhist temple shouldnt charge a set fee. They would ask for 'any' donation that you could spare...(if you couldnt then they should understand)
Anyone that asks for money upfront or fees etc etc stay CLEAR.
Best wishes on your path.
(ps, for anyone who wishes to address a comment to myself. PM me, becuase i only comment once on questions and never look back on threads. Im not into debates, arguements etc etc..I just try and answer the question as honest and helpful as i can)
cheers, bless x
:thumbup: