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Every time you pay attention to your breath, you are making good karma.

jlljll Veteran
edited May 2011 in Buddhism Basics
Do you agree?
«1

Comments

  • Do you agree?
    What about if you're mindfully robbing a bank while watching your breath? ;-)

    Spiny
  • jlljll Veteran
    Can you talk & listen at the same time?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Yes, when you pay attention to your breath you are developing a mental habit which is also a type of karma. In the Tibetan tradition at least, they stress repeatedly the importance of setting a proper motivation before starting your meditation and a proper dedication of the merit afterwards so that your session can have the best possible karma.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Walk and chew gum at the same time ... not as easy as it sounds. :)
  • Can you talk & listen at the same time?
    Eh? ;-)

    Spiny
  • Yes. The idea is the "focus" on a single object, and the cultivation of awareness. Though it is difficult, we can start by sitting on a chair, standing, walking, and then gradually work our way to more movements of the body.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    No I dont agree developing positive karma would entail performing a positive mental or physical action, Just concentrating on breathing is a neutral action so it only would create neutral karmic potentials :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    My thoughts exactly.
    Paying attention to the breath might mean that you are lacking attention elsewhere.

    Breathing in awareness, is quite a different thing.
    You open your mind in a state of relaxed attentiveness, or attentive relaxation.
    You are still, but conscious of what is.
  • jlljll Veteran
    I am confused. Isnt meditation focusing totally on your breath? My teacher says meditation is doing good karma.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    No, meditation is not focussing totally on your breath. Focussing on the breath is merely a tool to still and calm the Monkey mind.
    By watching the body breathing, you divert your attention form the endless chatter of your thoughts, to merely being still, and staying centred.

    Meditation is doing you good.
    Therefore, meditation is beneficial to your Mind and body's well-being. Therefore meditation is good for you.
    Therefore you are creating a peaceful, centred stillness for you, which is beneficial kamma for yourself, but only perhaps in the most subtle sense.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Breath doesn't exist in isolation. It is always connected to your deepest yearnings nobility and courage. Therefore it creates good karma as much so as it connects to your good heart.
  • Breath doesn't exist in isolation. It is always connected to your deepest yearnings nobility and courage. Therefore it creates good karma as much so as it connects to your good heart.
    But presumably the breath could also be connected to deep feelings of anger, jealousy, etc?

    Spiny
  • edited June 2011
    I am confused. Isnt meditation focusing totally on your breath?


    Yes, that's one type of meditation ( shamata ). However once the mind is calm and concentrated awareness can become more expansive ( vipassana ).

    Spiny
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Anger and jealousy are adventitious stains. They are not real. That is how we can let them go as false.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    So are nobility and courage.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2011
    depends what you mean. If they are ungraspable buddha qualities then no. The distortions of them and grasping can be let go of. But we are stuck with nobility and courage. Which stem from the wish to be happy. The wish to be happy comes from qualities of clarity openness and sensitivity. We sense another possiblity than delusion and we have a feeling response to that.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited June 2011
    Good karma, bad karma ... please keep on breathing. To do otherwise would be to drop dead and Buddhism would be sunk without you.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    I am confused. Isnt meditation focusing totally on your breath? My teacher says meditation is doing good karma.

    Meditation in the Buddhist sense is used to move the mind from negative states to positive states. Breathing meditation helps calm and focus the mind, By focusing the mind on the breath we are gaining an experience of training in concentration but the breath is neither a positive or negative phenomena in this sense of meditation and the only karma ( cause and effect ) we create will be neutral karmic potential.
    Generally breathing meditation and mindfullness meditation are used as preliminarys to train the mind the real meditation starts when we meditate and try to single pointedly focus on minds that lead toward liberation and enlightenment, For example by meditating on the Lower path of our precious human life, rebirth, our kind mothers...etc or the Intermediate path of Renunciation or even the higher path of training in the 7 fold cause and effect method of bodhichitta or the exchanging self with others method of generating bodhichitta or training in meditation upon emptiness...etc This is where the real change begins because we move our mind toward these objects and their function is to transform the way we operate and think so we can eventually eliminate all suffering. :)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited June 2011
    I agree with the OP.

    It's not a major thing, but when you direct your mind to the breath you're observing the give-and-take interplay of life, the required exchange to continue living a bit longer, the want/need and the act following each other... if you're really paying attention. Some day it might all of the sudden make you see things in a different way. If you can remain mindful of the breath for long periods of time (even all day long), that is also conducive to calm, concentration and a foundation for insight (like seated meditation).

    It's not just the breath though, but it's certainly good karma to be mindful of the breath. It's where it leads that's important, and every little bit of mindfulness helps!
  • I like at it like this , when I am working I am not spending money - ergo I am saving money.

  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited June 2011
    Yes. Meditation is sitting (standing/walking/breathing) out bad karma.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Yes. Meditation is sitting (standing/walking/breathing) out bad karma.
    As a matter of curiosity, would we be sitting/standing/walking/breathing without the assistance of this "bad karma?"
  • It's not a major thing, but when you direct your mind to the breath you're observing the give-and-take interplay of life, the required exchange to continue living a bit longer, the want/need and the act following each other... if you're really paying attention.
    When we watch the breath we're just watching the breath. Hopefully that leads our mind to be calm and concentrated. But it seems to me that the concentration we develop in meditation is actually a neutral quality, it's how we use it that is significant. We could use it to observe the mind or we could use it to plan a bank robbery. So I don't agree with the OP.

    Spiny
  • Which stem from the wish to be happy.
    All sorts of negative emotions can stem from the wish to be happy.

    Spiny
  • I like at it like this , when I am working I am not spending money - ergo I am saving money.

    But a hired assassin could say that. ;-)

    Spiny
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited June 2011
    Hi Jll,

    I believe it is possible to make either dark kamma, bright kamma, mixed (i.e. dark-and-bright) kamma or neither-dark-nor-bright kamma depending on our intention and attitude while meditating.

    Dark kamma may occur if we are trying to force our body or mind to sit still and watch the breath.

    Bright kamma may occur if we are being kind and mindful towards our breath and allowing it to evolve into something beautiful.

    Mixed (i.e. dark-and-bright) kamma occurs when we have mixed intentions. Maybe we are using a bit of force but we use it with the intention to overcome sloth-and-torpor. We may get rid of the sloth-and-torpor (which is a "bright" result) but also now, as a result of a forceful approach, our mind is restless (which is a "dark" result).

    We may also be making neither-dark-nor-bright kamma while we meditate, which is the "highest" kamma because it leads to Nibbana.

    I don't know if there is a Sutta to support this, but, I believe that neither-dark-nor-bright kamma is the kamma (which literally means "action" - but more specifically "intentional action") of stopping all intentional action. How do we do this? By "letting be" and "letting go".

    So...it is not what you are doing (e.g. watching the breath) which is important, it is HOW you are doing it - what is your attitude/intention?

    Also, in my experience, as much as I want to go straight for the "highest" kamma of "neither-dark-nor-bright" - it is often more skilful to, at the beginning of the meditation, focus on generating some bright kamma. When the mind is starting from a happy state it can more easily become mindful of the "neutral" objects. Whereas if the mind is not sufficiently "bright" then the "neutral" objects may appear dull and boring and mindfulness will not stick.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited June 2011
    Do you agree?
    No. Definitely not.

    If the mind has right concentration (samma samadhi), it has ended karma.

    The Buddha taught the noble eightfold path is the karma that ends karma.

    The Buddha taught right concentration has relinquishment as its sole object.

    The Buddha taught right concentration has right view as its leader or forerunner.

    :om:
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    "All sorts of negative emotions can stem from the wish to be happy."

    Thats because the basic longing and sensitity is distorted by looking 'outside'. Looking in the wrong places. Its always distorted until we are a buddha.
  • Isnt meditation focusing totally on your breath? My teacher says meditation is doing good karma.
    When developing just concentration (without insight), watching our breathing is good karma because the mind dwells in non-harming and dwells in a way that brings good health to the body & mind.

    :)



  • Isnt meditation focusing totally on your breath? My teacher says meditation is doing good karma.
    When developing just concentration (without insight), watching our breathing is good karma because the mind dwells in non-harming and dwells in a way that brings good health to the body & mind.

    :)
    I'm not convinced. It seems to me that a non-harming attitude is a product of insight and ethics, not just concentration. I'm sure a sniper has excellent concentration while taking the shot.

    Spiny
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited June 2011
    Hi Spiny,
    I'm not convinced. It seems to me that a non-harming attitude is a product of insight and ethics, not just concentration. I'm sure a sniper has excellent concentration while taking the shot.
    As I mentioned in my post above, intention is a key component in kamma. If our mind is concentrated with an unwholesome intention then we're making bad kamma. If our mind is concentrated on a wholesome object with a wholesome intention then we're making good kamma.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Isnt meditation focusing totally on your breath? My teacher says meditation is doing good karma.
    When developing just concentration (without insight), watching our breathing is good karma because the mind dwells in non-harming and dwells in a way that brings good health to the body & mind.

    :)
    I'm not convinced. It seems to me that a non-harming attitude is a product of insight and ethics, not just concentration. I'm sure a sniper has excellent concentration while taking the shot.

    Spiny
    That may be true but there is a difference between "concentration" and "right concentration". Sometimes a huge difference.


    :)
  • Hi Spiny,
    I'm not convinced. It seems to me that a non-harming attitude is a product of insight and ethics, not just concentration. I'm sure a sniper has excellent concentration while taking the shot.
    As I mentioned in my post above, intention is a key component in kamma. If our mind is concentrated with an unwholesome intention then we're making bad kamma. If our mind is concentrated on a wholesome object with a wholesome intention then we're making good kamma.

    Metta,

    Guy
    Yes, intention is crucial, but does it actually make a type of difference to the type of concentration we develop?

    Spiny
  • That may be true but there is a difference between "concentration" and "right concentration". Sometimes a huge difference.

    It would be interesting to look at what the difference actually is. Any ideas?

    Spiny
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    That may be true but there is a difference between "concentration" and "right concentration". Sometimes a huge difference.

    It would be interesting to look at what the difference actually is. Any ideas?

    Spiny
    "The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

    For many people, it's quite easy to concentrate on the porno movie you are watching, but it's certainly not "right", as doing so would lead to more suffering, not less. :lol:

  • "The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html
    Thanks for the extract. This seems to be saying that concentration is only right concentration when practiced with the rest of the 8-fold. Which in turn seems to imply that the type of concentration we establish by watching the breath is directly affected by other parts of our practice - but how does this work?

    Spiny
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Concentration in the 8 fold path means renoucing that which is unreliable and resting in that which is wholesome and real.
  • Wasn't, the ? If someone was noticing their BREATH,not sniping assassinating etc. If the breath is where your one pointed focus is, is,doesn't that presume these other activites are not being carried out.?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited June 2011
    That may be true but there is a difference between "concentration" and "right concentration". Sometimes a huge difference.

    It would be interesting to look at what the difference actually is. Any ideas?

    Spiny
    Interesting question. During the yearly meeting of the Mind and Life Institute and the Dalai Lama they spent 10 minutes or so debating this point with a Therevada pali scholar. The Therevada position is that mindfullness is inherently positive the Tibetans thought it was neutral. Here's the whole session, the first 45 minutes are a presentation by Rupert Gethin about some definitions of mental processes according to the pali cannon. The specific discussion takes place after that (I think?). It's been a while since I watched it so can't remember exactly but somewhere in the middle, anyway the whole thing is a good watch. Its day 2 afternoon, for some reason you can't use embed code here.

    http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/63-mind-and-life-xviii---attention-memory-and-mind/2669

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    So I decided to watch the video again. At 1:08:48 Rupert begins his example of a tightrope walker using mindfulness. At 1:11:58 Alan Wallace asks the question about mindfulness being intrisically positive. Then at 1:51:45 Mattieu Ricard brings it up again and they discuss it for 10 minutes or so until the end.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2011
    From my understanding mindfulness is a quality in awareness that allows you to distinguish what is good to cultivate and what is to give up. Therefore from an intuitive perspective it is a good thing. For the tightrope walker he is balancing so that he doesn't fall down which (falling) wouldn't be a good thing. My teacher has stated this and she is a Tibetan buddhist therefore I conclude that the Da lai lama does not speak for the whole of Tibetan buddhism.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Its not actually HHDL that does most of the arguing for the importance of intention, its Alan Wallace and Mattieu Ricard. Anyway its not a simple black and white discussion, I've highlighted the important areas if you want to listen to the differing points.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2011
    I'll try to participate in the discussion though I am not sure I will get to the portions of the video. Thanks.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited June 2011
    The point Mattieu makes in the end at 2:03:01, that I agree with, is that yes indeed mindfulness allows you to distinguish between differing states of mind but in itself doesn't know the consequences of those mental states. After that Alan Wallace makes an important point about the quality of guarding in the Therevada definition.
  • santhisouksanthisouk Veteran
    edited June 2011
    citta [citta]: Mind; heart; state of consciousness

    I don't think we can base citta with consciousness alone like they were mistakenly doing.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#c
  • I'm not convinced. It seems to me that a non-harming attitude is a product of insight and ethics, not just concentration. I'm sure a sniper has excellent concentration while taking the shot.
    Spiny

    I am referring to concentration on breathing. :wow:
  • Wasn't, the ? If someone was noticing their BREATH,not sniping assassinating etc. If the breath is where your one pointed focus is, is,doesn't that presume these other activites are not being carried out.?
    A sniper will use the breath to develop calm / concentration. A Buddhist will use the breath to develop calm / concentration. The calm is obviously being used in different ways, but I'm still not convinced they're qualitatively all that different.

    Spiny
  • I'm not convinced. It seems to me that a non-harming attitude is a product of insight and ethics, not just concentration. I'm sure a sniper has excellent concentration while taking the shot.
    Spiny

    I am referring to concentration on breathing. :wow:
    See my previous post - a sniper also concentrates on breathing.

    Spiny
  • The Therevada position is that mindfullness is inherently positive the Tibetans thought it was neutral.
    From a practical point of view being mindful means paying attention so it appears to be inherently neutral in much the same way that being concentrated seems inherently neutral. I'm talking here about basic mindfulness and basic concentration.

    Spiny
  • Concentration in the 8 fold path means renoucing that which is unreliable and resting in that which is wholesome and real.
    Which presumably depends on developing Right View, among other factors?

    Spiny
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