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How serious are you about Buddhism?
jll
Veteran
On a scale of 1 to 10. 10 means going to Thailand to ordain.
1 means reading Buddhist books and coming to this forum.
Please describe what you intend to do or are doing.
1 means reading Buddhist books and coming to this forum.
Please describe what you intend to do or are doing.
0
Comments
You can be serious about self-study, meditation, and a local sangha.
Almost like saying you aren't a serious Christian unless you go to seminary school or become a monastic XD
The person who reads books, applies what he learns from those books, never entertaining ideas of becoming a monk in Thailand, is a far more serious practitioner than the person who thinks "when I go to Thailand to ordain THEN I'll be a serious practitioner".
There is nothing wrong with wanting to ordain, but (as genkaku pointed), if we fall into the trap of thinking that only as a monk or a nun we can REALLY practice then we are missing the point. Sure, make the necessary plans and arrangements to ordain, if that's what you want to do, but, don't forget that the REAL practice has been and always will be in the present moment.
Metta,
Guy
As for the rest, I agree with Guy. The criteria in the OP do not reflect the subjective reality. It's the internal intention that counts, no matter what the external reality. It's the sense of commitment. I think it's un-Buddhist to set up such arbitrary criteria.
How about this scale ? From 1 to 7 which one do people practice:
Physical
1. Morality (Abandoning unskillful words, and action)
2. Morality & Metta ( Not doing bad deeds and doing good deeds)
Abandoning unskillful words, and action
Doing good deeds as an expression of compassion
3. Some daily meditation in addition to 1 & 2 above.
Mental
4. Abandoning the 5 hindrances to deep meditation while moving about in daily life ( in addition to 1 - 3 above)
Mindful of the Unwholesome mental qualities ( 5 hindrances) that enter the mind and let them go whenever they do.
5. Restraint of the Faculties ( 6 senses) in addition to 1-5 above)
"On seeing a form with the eye, one does not grasp at its signs and features . Since, if one left the eye faculty unguarded, unwholesome states of grasping and displeasure might invade the mind. One practices the way of restraint, one guards the eye faculty, one undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty."
The same goes with the other senses :
"On hearing a sound with the ear…On cognizing a smell with the nose…On cognizing a taste with the tongue…..On cognizing touches with the body…"
"On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, one does not grasp at its signs and features. Since, if one left the mind faculty unguarded, unwholesome states of covetousness and displeasure might invade the mind. One practices the way of restraint, one guards the mind faculty, one undertakes the restraint of the mind faculty."
"Possessing this noble restraint of the faculties, one experiences within oneself an untouched pleasure of the mental faculties."
"One becomes someone who acts in full awareness when going forward or returning ; who acts in full awareness when looking on, or looking aside; who acts in full awareness when bending or stretching ; who acts in full awareness when bearing the bowl and three robes ; who acts in full awareness when tasting, drinking, eating and enjoying ; who acts in full awareness when going, standing, sitting, lying, if awake, and keeping silence ." (MN 51)
6. Deepening Meditation to develop deeper Serenity & Insight ( in addition to 1 - 5 above)
7. Penetrating the 3 Characteristics or Dependent Origination or Four Noble Truths (after having developed 1-6 above) .
In my view your question has a heavy authoritarian bias which suggests that being ordained is in some sense a status symbol of Dharma. This is a very common bias!:)
Lest we not forget, there were no ordinations in the Buddha's time, and perhaps most profoundly, the Buddha himself didn't really change his ways much once enlightened.
So, with this said I would say I am utterly serious in how I strive for Dharma theory and practice. I have no intention of becoming a monk as that seems to me to be very much a move away from ones own light and into that of a very well established orthodoxy that has little tolerance for questioning and exploration of The Dharma.
That's my take on your question,
Namaste
As for me, I'm following this thread only because I'm bored. And slightly irritated by the question and the criteria the OP sets.
While comparing degrees of seriousness may be about as useful as comparing one sorrow or one love to another, still I think it is a human pastime, one that people outgrow as experience gains a foothold. Comparisons are like toys ... children play with one set of toys, adults play with another.
Check one:
Yes.
While you can be totally committed as a lawyer with a family in New York, meditating 3 hours a day on your lunch break and on the subway, you have to admire to the 23yr old from Finland who flew to Thailand and ordained. Sure, he may disrobe after a couple of months. But it sure takes courage and conviction to drop everything and travel halfway round the planet to be a monk.
Do the people you designate as holy or accomplished think of themselves that way? Not unless they are cruisin' for a bruisin'. Do the people you consider ignorant or unwise see themselves that way? For good, bad or indifferent reasons, probably not.
Shall we base commitment upon action? Shall we base it on something as nebulous as love? Shall we wave the flag of sincerity ... or does that flag tend to get hauled down by a lack of competence? Some people take risks in one direction (Thailand maybe), some in another (pick your poison).
"Commitment" sounds as if it ought to mean something important and serious, but when you look closely, when you try to get an honest handle on it, what happens?
I once flew from Albuquerque to Los Angeles to talk to a Geshe about a solution for my panic disorder and when we were done talking he chided me a little bit for spending that time and money for something I could have found within myself. Maybe the masters in Thailand would think the 23 year old was nuts to do something he could have done in Europe.
It's all relative.
when it comes to meditation you need to be like a sportsmen or
dancer, you will screw up if you are too concerned about the results.
You need to lighten up. But when it comes to keeping the precepts, I believe in being a disciplinarian on myself.
when it comes to meditation you need to be like a sportsmen or
dancer, you will screw up if you are too concerned about the results.
You need to lighten up. But when it comes to keeping the precepts, I believe in being a disciplinarian on myself."
I like that jll very nice.
Was he afraid? If he wasn't afraid it wasn't courageous. And as is noted above, going to Thailand was completely unnecessary.
But when it comes to fearing rebirth, this sounds from a distance more imaginative than fruitful. Are you afraid of breathing? Breathe in, breathe out. Birth and death. Over and over again. Being afraid of such things ... how realistic is this?
I do realize that shame is necessary for change. I appreciate your concern. I must have been distressed at the time when I wrote it or perhaps I wanted to sound poetic. I dunno. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :nyah:
I believe maybe I have a different view of rebirth than others. The term I should have used instead of fear is "worry". I do worry about rebirth because it is the unknown. Although I put forth 100% effort to follow the 5 precepts during this part of my life, yet there is little I can do to predict the future or to undo the karma of the past, and even this bothers me a little. Whether its just a small percentage of worry or whether it will grow into fear, I can not deny that it arises when I think about my past karma or the karma of others. To me rebirth is a bit of the unknown.
Rebirth is considered unknown to me because there are quite a number of those that have taken human life, there are many who believe in taking what is not theirs, there are those that believe that sex with different people is something to indulge in, there are those that engage in false speech for personal gain, and there are those that need to intoxicate themselves for pleasure or to relieve their suffering. For these people who can not see living their life otherwise, worrying about rebirth is the last thing on their mind. Whatever birth or realm satisfies our karmic actions, it can not really be known or determined because is based on our actions. So whether anyone decides to worry or not, I will share this worry for them. As a being in this human realm I share all the good/bad physical/mental qualities/unsatisfactoriness of others, so it is likewise that I share the same feelings.
Peace and metta be with you:)
SS
very serious (8 or 9)
career, family and friendships have to help in the path or at least not be an obstacle.
thanks, interesting concept (Sadhu)... specially as "not entagled".
________________________________
@ santhisouk -- Gautama is said to have said, "All fear dying. All fear death." It sounds to me as if it is not so much rebirth that worries you as it is death. What happens after we die? Where do we go? How can we just disappear? And perhaps coincidentally, is it possible that we might somehow return as an aardvark or an arhat?
No one can talk a worry to death. People worry until they stop worrying ... and worrying is one of the hardest habits to surrender or clarify. Philosophy, religion, belief and hope -- none of them offer more than half-baked clues when it comes to worry.
But one of the clues is this: A strong and constant meditation practice puts both worry and rebirth in a more sensible perspective. This is easy to say and not always easy to do -- to actually take up a practice and stick with it, day after day, week after week, year after year.
There is a story (sorry I can't cite where it occurs) of a monk whose understanding was confirmed by his teacher. Word spread around the monastery that the monk had attained enlightenment. All his brother monks gathered around to congratulate the fortunate monk. One of the fellow monks asked him, "So how is it to be enlightened? Are all your problems resolved?" And the fortunate monk replied, "Nope. Same old problems."
Practice changes nothing. It only changes everything. The problems don't disappear but the light in which they are seen becomes easy and bright. Things are OK the way they are ... aardvark or arhat ... things are OK.
With metta
The truth and the depth of it are not to be found in the measurable appearance of it.
A person who’s been a monk or a teacher for half a lifetime can still be an idiot.
A beginner on the path can be a jewel of dharma.
Serious meditators can be utter fools.
Without formal meditation we can attain complete liberation.
Some people are good at keeping the precepts on a detailed level, while on a large level they’re completely blind to them.
I think the way to go is to practice the best we can; without evaluating, without comparing and without judging.
if you were to holiday in Alaska you'd have to take a huge amount of appropriately insulating, warm clothing. Yet one Christmas I was walking down Oxford Street, and there was a man in shorts and t-shirt.
Wasn't he cold? No, he was Alaskan. Our Christmas was his summer......
Nobody can answer this to your satisfaction, or theirs for that matter.
And frankly, to be honest, why should they? I find the question unsettling. Slightly insulting, even. I'll have to think about why that is....
Metta,
Guy
One reference to Enlightenment without formal meditation is to be found in the life and the writings attributed to Hui Neng.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huineng
I think I know what JLL was asking, but it's kind of hard to answer. I've never felt the burning desire to be a monk, for instance, but then again in many Buddhist cultures, neither have many of the monks, probably. It's just something available to young men as a career.
How about secular versus non-secular? Formal versus informal? Or those who make the effort to join a local sangha, or community of Buddhists instead of going it alone? I don't know if one is more serious than another.
Let's try this. When I first started many years ago, finding a sangha to help me with my practice and being part of a community was very important to me. More important than living close to my family or moving to where there was a good paying job. Over the years my practice became much more private and my life revolves around being a good husband and grandfather and providing for a family. I moved far away from old Teachers or any temple I'd be interested in joining without a hesitation because it was needed to provide for my family.
So I still meditate and follow the 8-fold path, but to look at me, I'd rate a "zero" on the scale right now. On the scale of trying to help all beings, I remain pegged at 11. And who knows? Maybe in the future I'll be the oldest monk ever ordained in Kwan Um.