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On the other hand, I attended the teachings of a visiting Rinpoche. I asked a question about practicing the Dharma in the west. I was in the process of planning a pilgrimage to India and Nepal, his answer was that taking a pilgrimage is a helpful way to generate merit for your practice. Since he had only been in town a few days and I'm not really close with the people who managed his accomodations I don't feel like its likely that he knew of my plans. This seems like a legitimate instance of knowing anothers mind.
I feel that this is a "stock" answer and actually illustrates the OP's point. You think this is a legitimate answer of knowing another's mind. Actually, pilgrimage is a centuries-old tradition in TB (and many other world religions) and is just naturally thought to bring a lot of merit. And you think he somehow was "knowing your mind".
In the OP, genkaku addresses the question: "Teachers old and new address issues that are sometimes so compellingly close-to-home that anyone might imagine their minds were being read."
And you did.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited July 2011
On the other hand, I attended the teachings of a visiting Rinpoche. I asked a question about practicing the Dharma in the west. I was in the process of planning a pilgrimage to India and Nepal, his answer was that taking a pilgrimage is a helpful way to generate merit for your practice. Since he had only been in town a few days and I'm not really close with the people who managed his accomodations I don't feel like its likely that he knew of my plans. This seems like a legitimate instance of knowing anothers mind.
I feel that this is a "stock" answer and actually illustrates the OP's point. You think this is a legitimate answer of knowing another's mind. Actually, pilgrimage is a centuries-old tradition in TB (and many other world religions) and is just naturally thought to bring a lot of merit. And you think he somehow was "knowing your mind".
In the OP, genkaku addresses the question: "Teachers old and new address issues that are sometimes so compellingly close-to-home that anyone might imagine their minds were being read."
And you did.
Well maybe, but in my years of listening to teachings I've never heard anyone else answer pilgrimage to a question and trying to rack my memory I can't come up with any instance of it being taught as just a part of the teaching either. I acknowledge that we can project our feelings onto the teachings, but does that mean thats always the case?
Mind reading exists, but it is mostly psychology. It's a state of consciousness and awareness of being able to look at a person completely and observe their body language. Through this awareness and level of observation often you can tell what someone is thinking. I've seen it done many times, by psychologists, martial artists, cops, yogi's, monks, etc all people who all train their level of awareness. Plenty of ordinary people can do it, it's a matter of training your awareness and observation, and maybe even taking psychology classes.
hehe --- some bhuddists! two pages of argument and nobody thinks to actually just test it? you can do better than that, here - this is a basic protocol:
1. get together two people 2. ensure that there is no way there can be physical communication between them - for example in two different houses. this should be easy to arrange via the internet .. 3. choose (by lot or something if you want to be very rigorous) one person to be the "sender" the other to be the "receiver". 4. sender sits, calms down a little (you don't have to get uptight about it, just calm down and focus on the task) - think a bit about the receiver and then draw a simple image on some paper trying to keep the attention on the image. 5. receiver also calms down and then, pen and paper in hand, attempts to receive and image in mind and sketch it. 6. compare the images ... use your judgement about if they are similar or for better rigor use a third (preferable disinterested) party to judge. 7. repeat as desired.
you can argue all day and it is merely second hand information, not likely to be resolved - just try it out a few times. the similar drawings (called "hits") rather consistently occur at greater than chance frequency with sincere participants. this applies to average people with no previous experience or known ability ... except for extremely skeptical people who typically achieve _below_ chance scores ..
that said - many claim psychic ability that are charlatans, frauds. with that in mind i would agree with the cautionary approach; while it may not be impossible it is also not very likely .. so i would not assume that your teacher can read your mind but it would be delusional to dismiss the possibility out of hand. eh, seems this might be kinda like adherence to a view?
mmm - actually the picture drawing has given better results - various theories have been proposed as to why but none are agreed upon. some speculate that it is because it draws on more global, gestalt and/or right brain reasoning rather that the usual linear and "logical" left brain and/or linguistic processes. a rich area for investigation in my opinion.
i should add that there is some evidence to suggest that individuals develop a preference for using particular sensory modalities for certain tasks and that a larger percentage of the population tends to emphasize visual processing (in our culture) as primary in communication - much fewer use auditory as primary (which might explain why many do not seem to hear what others say .. but can sometimes be shown their point of view ..). _my_ own thoughts are that this may be a factor and that with some people a word exchange might be more successful (musicians, for instance) - although the linguistic processing might interfere so ... ach, so much to investigate, so little time!
agreed, and these things ought not be taken too lightly - however, as i think about it, the question "can my teacher really read my mind" is actually a good question - with the commercialization of a "spiritual marketplace" and a growing industry around it there are increasing pressures to "provide a show" to attract customers and thus a lot of, eh, convenient vagueness (not to mention outright fraud). i think it is good to approach the question in a reasonable and balanced way encouraging open mindedness without gullibility ... so, maybe it actually _is_ appropriate to the section. thoughts?
interesting point .. pondering. one might mention as well that in general these things are considered distractions and even a bit dangerous and not the goal of dhamma, merely occasional byproducts. nor do they in and of themselves prove that a person is spiritual - probably why gotama forbade the monks from displaying them in public.
hmmm, i think strict vinaya actually says that you are correct - it ought to have been dismissed as a distracting topic immediately (which was actually my first response ..) but this being a neo-buddhist forum i am inclined to hold my peace on strictness .. pondering ..
very few do - its the sort of practice that works for a certain kind of individual and appropriately so; all walks of life are necessary for dhamma to thrive in the world monks, nuns, upasaka, upasika, lay supporters, etc. however, it is not necessary to follow vinaya strictly to benefit from it as a frame of reference when considering difficult ethical questions.
Basically it is very painful to read mind lest you "read" a buddha mind that is most supreme. And if a buddha would to purely on buddha mind without "matter of choice", there will not be any expediency for liberating living beings, and it is a pain in the us, for that living beings continue to suffer, and Buddha never would lack of metta.... :thumbsup:
Comments
In the OP, genkaku addresses the question: "Teachers old and new address issues that are sometimes so compellingly close-to-home that anyone might imagine their minds were being read."
And you did.
1. get together two people
2. ensure that there is no way there can be physical communication between them - for example in two different houses. this should be easy to arrange via the internet ..
3. choose (by lot or something if you want to be very rigorous) one person to be the "sender" the other to be the "receiver".
4. sender sits, calms down a little (you don't have to get uptight about it, just calm down and focus on the task) - think a bit about the receiver and then draw a simple image on some paper trying to keep the attention on the image.
5. receiver also calms down and then, pen and paper in hand, attempts to receive and image in mind and sketch it.
6. compare the images ... use your judgement about if they are similar or for better rigor use a third (preferable disinterested) party to judge.
7. repeat as desired.
you can argue all day and it is merely second hand information, not likely to be resolved - just try it out a few times. the similar drawings (called "hits") rather consistently occur at greater than chance frequency with sincere participants. this applies to average people with no previous experience or known ability ... except for extremely skeptical people who typically achieve _below_ chance scores ..
there is plenty of laboratory experimental data that supports "paranormal" abilities even in average people - see for instance this study on remote viewing from the Journal of Scientific Exploration , a series of experiments from the 1970s - it is quite interesting.
that said - many claim psychic ability that are charlatans, frauds. with that in mind i would agree with the cautionary approach; while it may not be impossible it is also not very likely .. so i would not assume that your teacher can read your mind but it would be delusional to dismiss the possibility out of hand. eh, seems this might be kinda like adherence to a view?
cheer.
isn't it easier to just think of a word at a specific time?
...it worked for me once (the only trial).
I mean the thread... it is one of the phala, which if encountered by a beginner it ceases to be a beginner.
the best use will be in a silent way... and it is much better to just "read a mind overall" (it is more respectful).
...I don't follow the Vinaya.
peace.