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mind readers
genkaku
Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
I think it is par for the course for relative new-comers to imagine that one Buddhist teacher or another could read their minds. Teachers old and new address issues that are sometimes so compellingly close-to-home that anyone might imagine their minds were being read.
For example, death, disease, drugs, divorce or delight (to pick some issues that begin with 'D') are common matters of deep concern, so, when someone enmeshed in one or another of those problems hears a speaker address the issue from a Buddhist perspective ... well, hey -- it can feel like magic ... spooky and delightful all at once. And there can be the thought, "Wow! S/he can read my mind! I am an open book to this person!"
Well maybe so or maybe not, but I personally hope people will not lay too much emphasis on such a notion. Aside from anything else, most people, even woo-hoo speakers, have enough stuff of their own to cope with without carrying around anyone else's baggage ... even if they could. And the fact is, they can't.
Yes, there are common human issues that weave into a Buddhist tapestry -- examples of confusion or uncertainty or sorrow or joy. But let's not get swept up in the fanciful idea that addressing an issue is the same as mind-reading. It's just life-reading.
Buddhist practice does not require any Magical Mystery Tour additions in my opinion. It just requires constant and determined effort.
Or anyway, that's my thought. What's yours?
For example, death, disease, drugs, divorce or delight (to pick some issues that begin with 'D') are common matters of deep concern, so, when someone enmeshed in one or another of those problems hears a speaker address the issue from a Buddhist perspective ... well, hey -- it can feel like magic ... spooky and delightful all at once. And there can be the thought, "Wow! S/he can read my mind! I am an open book to this person!"
Well maybe so or maybe not, but I personally hope people will not lay too much emphasis on such a notion. Aside from anything else, most people, even woo-hoo speakers, have enough stuff of their own to cope with without carrying around anyone else's baggage ... even if they could. And the fact is, they can't.
Yes, there are common human issues that weave into a Buddhist tapestry -- examples of confusion or uncertainty or sorrow or joy. But let's not get swept up in the fanciful idea that addressing an issue is the same as mind-reading. It's just life-reading.
Buddhist practice does not require any Magical Mystery Tour additions in my opinion. It just requires constant and determined effort.
Or anyway, that's my thought. What's yours?
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Comments
I agree with the gist of what you are saying...but... How do you know?
Metta,
Guy
If you would like to believe someone (Gautama or any other) can read minds, I hope you will exercise some care: Such a supposition tends to impede serious practice.
If someone could read your mind or mine -- so what? If someone couldn't read your mind or mind -- so what? Wouldn't we still be stuck with the same mind, the same uncertainties, and the same necessity to clean up our own act? Imagining that someone else could read our minds is an imaginative way of camouflaging or avoiding the unavoidable work no one else can do for us.
I can sort of see synchronicity or coincidence, but I get your point, Genkaku. Buddhists should not place any credence or invest any energy in supposed mind-reading. I agree that it's a way that people try to avoid doing their own necessary work.
I can imagine someone suggesting that mind-reading runs counter to common, verifiable sense ... and I happen to think of Buddhism as very common-sensical.
With this thread, I am not trying to denigrate or dismiss those things which are outside the ordinary intellectual and emotional realms. I am only trying to suggest that Magical-Mystery-Tour thinking is just that ... thinking or imagining that can't really advance any serious Buddhist practice.
People have tried this on me, but my thought patterns are erratic enough, no one has ever gotten a single thing right.
on the contrary, it is one of the phala.
I admit I'm a little irritable here this morning, but IMO I see hair-splitting going on here, and hair-splitting that does not even address the central point, which is the magical thinking genkaku is addressing.
Sheesh, guys.
it is possible to read minds, overall. you said that was "wrong livelihood"... it isn't.
That doesn't sound quite like mind reading as we know it in the current day. It's almost like mind discerning ("He discerns a mind..."). Knowing what kind of mind you have, not what your mind is doing. At least that's how it came across to me.
Although it is said that Mental Telepathy (ceto-pariya-ñána) IS, indeed, a phala of the contemplative life. Just that this quote doesn't seem to represent mental telepathy, but discernment of kind of mind.
Did the Buddha really believe in telepathy ?
You also must realize that this is a phala, and as such, once purified, there is no reason to know the details of the thoughts of another. Also, think, does the common person recognize each of their thoughts or do they typically observe the state of their mind? Only in contemplative meditation do we examine each thought.
I'm trying to think this through in my head out loud.
1. The Buddha-range of the Buddhas (i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha)...
2. The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana (i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana)....
What the Buddha accomplished is imponderable to ordinary people.
And IMO, looking at the list in the quotation above (which doesn't have a source-link, while we're splitting hairs):
a mind with passion
a mind with aversion
a mind with delusion
a restricted mind
a scattered mind
an enlarged mind
an excelled mind
a concentrated mind
a released mind
...an experienced psychiatrist or psychologist would be able to pick up on this "perceptual Gestalt of non-verbal cues" pretty easily too.
But this is all really off-topic related to the OP, which I understand to be saying that if someone makes a big deal out of mind-reading in Buddhism, those who notice it should quietly walk in the other direction.
when you are really centered in being either after a meditation or when you are concentrating...you can feel more and your intuition becomes keen.
also when the emphasis is on being in the moment, you tend to not focus on the monkey mind so much (well thats my experience). so in that sense i pay more attention to body language and non-verbal cues. a lot of what people feel and think truly show in their body. whether they are relaxed or stressed, etc. though people can hide their emotions via language, they cannot in their body, unless they are trained in that aspect.
so really all mind reading is being more open to a holistic approach to communication. opening our minds, hearts and being. from there we keep a clear mind and because we keep a clear mind there is space for the "other" to come in. if we only have our baggage like our thinking, feelings, desires, etc we will only interpret and project our conditionality onto the other.
lol
the link is in the word phala...
_________________________
@taiyaki -- My feeling is that is a keen intuition, whatever its source, is not something to be too keen on.
I may know, for example, that a man who is standing in front of me quaking is in the throes of being afraid and I may do my best to ease his fears. But to imagine I know what he is thinking, feeling or going through -- that I can somehow read his mind and heart -- is probably as foolish as it is presumptuous.
this is where right view and the rest of the 8 fold path interact.
either you do something about it or you don't.
and it's not even about imagining because it isn't conceptual.
to be highly mindful of the situation at hand is a tool. and yes it can be abused but it can also have great benefit in being compassionate.
if you know that the person next to you is having a bad day and you can feel their negative vibes then if they direct their anger towards you, you won't take it personal because you have the wisdom/mindfulness to know what really is going on.
if you don't know what i am talking about then i am sorry.
but for those who practice mindfulness meditation and are in their whole being in the moment there is more than meets the eye. intuition is merely a tool and byproduct of meditation.
and again like all things empty of inherent existence, thus it is up to you what you do with it and most of the time just being
with the person at hand it more than enough.
mindfulness is something i use everyday in the classroom. it is not to project a label or feeling onto my students. the purpose is to be present and full engaged in the moment. and from there i can objectively see what is going on. if a student is down or if there is something else going on in the students life. all of these things are quite apparent if you just pay attention.
i also see my thoughts and feelings that pop up, which interact with everything else. so i am quite aware of both my mental projections and my intuition of what is going on in the classroom.
after years of mindfulness meditation i've developed a keen awareness of what is going on in the moment. i feel it and embrace it and this helps with my practice and work place.
try it out.
So it's impossible by it's very nature. You would actually have to BE that person in order to read his mind. And you can't be him because you're you. :P
And I can go along with what taiyaki is saying, though I wouldn't call it intuition. The first time I saw the Impressionist area at the Smithsonian art collection it was just like "Bam!" there they were and I had to sit down because they were just so strong. I was, as we might say, "impressed" with the Impressionists.
(One of those Monet cathedrals- wow.)
Metta,
Guy
Does anyone think that a person could read a book by rubbing their self against it?
Actual esp or telepathy does not exist.
I have two experiences that contradict your statement... and since it is telepathy there were third parties (one of the experiences was confirmed... it was a test).
So it is best to start to read one`s own mind first.
I am now 12 years into my schizophrenia and it started just like this... asking questions like these and attempting to bend and open my mind in incredible ways.
Believe you me... it is a living nightmare not being able to put your mind back together after one of these full blown incidents... where YES everything you say does become possible!
Now I have to take medication to close my mind. Opening the faucet to reveal more of what is supposedly blocked out by our ordinary mind, uh, is not a good idea unless you want to end up in the hospital. Just some sage advice... :P
peace.
Have you been to a teacher? Vajra or zen would be well suited in my opinion.
Yea... I'm still of the opinion that some doors should not be opened. Once you witness certain things there is no erasing them from memory.
So, can experienced meditators read minds? Sure. The way you do it is to quiet the mind with a mantra or whatever, think of a person, say h/her name and ask a question and wait for the answer, hopefully in your own thoughts. if you are hearing voices or if it feels like it isn't coming from you, then you could be channeling, which is dangerous.
On the other hand, I have had moments of being able to read a mind. I am not sure if it is just a trait of hyper sensitive people who notice more detail and nuance than average and make conclusions without realizing it or if it is some magical quality. And it isn't always the best. It takes great maturity IMHO to handle getting information about people and their minds knowing that sometimes they are not aware of it for themselves. So i do a lot of 'leading questions' to get where I think we need to be, use information about others comfort or distress level to guide and then NEVER tell them things like 'well of course you are gay, we have known for years', LOL
I want you to think of a number between 1 and 50. Both numbers should be odd, neither the first digit or the last digit should be the same. Got it?
You are thinking of the number 37.
Did I guess right? This is a common magic trick. It seems like its a 1 in 50 chance if you don't think to deeply but if you eliminate all the numbers with even digits, all the numbers with the same digits and all the numbers with only one digit then there are only 8 left. The psychology of how a person picks a number further influences the choice so that 37 is the most likely choice.
On the other hand, I attended the teachings of a visiting Rinpoche. I asked a question about practicing the Dharma in the west. I was in the process of planning a pilgrimage to India and Nepal, his answer was that taking a pilgrimage is a helpful way to generate merit for your practice. Since he had only been in town a few days and I'm not really close with the people who managed his accomodations I don't feel like its likely that he knew of my plans. This seems like a legitimate instance of knowing anothers mind.