Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
.............. So would it even matter at that point how one acts around the dead? If they can't pick up on it, it wouldn't cause any negative karma. What's your thoughts?
I wonder whether the 'health' of a society may not be able to be assessed from looking at the way they treat their dead. It is by burials that we are able to date the beginnings of human society and its growth. Rituals for death and dying are matters of study for archaeologists and anthropologists. I wonder what future researchers will deduce from our remains.
Oh this is an interesting direction we've taken, Simon and Jer.
My own experience with the fundamentalists I grew up around is that they have very specific beliefs about how the body they have now will be new and improved when it is "raised" on the day Christ returns. And they tend to take pains to be sure their dead are presented nicely at a viewing. My mother's people would have the wake at the home of the deceased person. The family members would usually spend one night with their dead relative in the house while they slept and/or mourned over him/her.
There is a hairdresser at my parent's church who considers it her ministry or gift to deceased Christians to arrange their hair nicely for the funeral. I myself have given no thought to the presentation of my dead body. And would probably favor cremation.
A neighbor of ours died at the young age of 38 and was cremated just before Christmas. His remains were thrown into our lake. For some reason, I liked the idea of his remains being there. I think of him when I sit at the end of my dock.
I liked him. If I hadn't, I think perhaps it would trouble me that his ashes were floating around in the lake. I know he isn't in them, though. But, I often take a shortcut through a swampy area on his property when I'm walking over with my dog to visit my parents. This area is home to some beautiful big piliated woodpeckers and they call to each other. I always think of him now when I hear the woodpeckers calling each other.
I myself have no association with the condition of dead. That goes for myself also. I believe that once the body is gone - it is nothing more than lifeless flesh.
I would favor cremation.
I would favor my family have fond memories and peace at my passing than weeping for the loss of things we were never able to share.
Death is a part of life. It has been so far removed from us that most of us don't know how to cope with it - myself included. At least that's what I believe.
I also believe that most of us mourn the passing of a loved one mostly because of our loss and not the actual "death". They don't care if they ever see us again - because they're dead. It's actually the livings "loss".
Wickwoman - I think your way of rememberance means so much more than someone lying in a grave that no one visits.
As for what the future thinks of us? I think they'll think "WTF!?!?!? What did these people do to the Earth and each other in such a short amount of time!?!?!?! Barbarians!!!!!"
My partner and I plan on cremation for the both of us. Why dig another 2 holes in the ground? Aren't they going to run out of room some time?
BF, you're right about the grieving process. My mother nor sister were anymore. So it was left to those of us left here to grieve. I actually had a thought of something funny my sister said to me almost 20 years ago and laughed out loud about it. I'm sure she would have laughed too if she were still alive. But she isn't and that's okay. I've been able to move on since then.
WickWoman, I know that some women who are hairdressers will do a deceased person's hair. My mom's hairdresser went over and did her body's hair to prepare for the service. We were touched by it. I wasn't touched by the minister saying "If you don't believe in Jesus like Alita believed in Jesus, you'll never see her again". Not the time nor the place. My AA buddies thought I was going to go for the man.
I know these are things most people don't think about. I have to think about them to respect the wishes of a patient's family and their wishes. I usually have multiple lines to deal with and thoughts of autopsy to boot. What I find strange is when someone is 80 years old, been sick for years, been in the ICU for a month and the family wants an autopsy. I have to bite my tongue on that one.
Now, we know that when a person is brain dead, they can no longer carry out higher or middle functions of the brain. Every thing is reflexive. So would it even matter at that point how one acts around the dead? If they can't pick up on it, it wouldn't cause any negative karma. What's your thoughts?
Jer, it is an absurd logic on the part of our mad scientists to imagine that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the the brain. If this were the case we would act first then be consciousness of our actions!
In real life we are consciousness first, which triggers the brain. This means, like the Buddha said, we are consciousness attached to nama-rupa body. When the body craps out, our consciousness (which triggers) goes to another body. It could be a divine body, or that of an animal. It depends on our thoughts; if they were spiritual or material (emotive).
In the end it makes no difference what you do around someone who just died. They are going link with what they desire. You can speak with them in your heart and say follow the Buddha's teaching. For they are still here.
it is an absurd logic on the part of our mad scientists to imagine that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the the brain. If this were the case we would act first then be consciousness of our actions!
Observe much? Ever notice that, when one accidentally sticks one's hand onto a hot stove, one jerks it away before one has even become aware of it? Your reflexes are much faster than your "conscious actions"!
Skillful action can occur in the gap between sensation and reaction, but it will never be "conscious"!
In real life we are consciousness first, which triggers the brain.
If that were the case, your heart would stop beating whenever you go to sleep. Not good.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I wasn't touched by the minister saying "If you don't believe in Jesus like Alita believed in Jesus, you'll never see her again". Not the time nor the place. My AA buddies thought I was going to go for the man.
That brings up the subject of how we need to be completely Mindful with regard to the Eightfold path, and particularly Right Intention and Right Speech....
It's sometimes a case of not only having to deal with the dead and the dying, but the next-of-kin and bereaved.... sensitivities are heightened at this time... I'm in agreement with BF on the reasons why people mourn... It's more to do with the Mourner than the Mourned. So the sorrow they display is more grieving for the fact that they will never see that person again....
But that should only serve to nourish our compassion, and to make our Awareness more heightened in the face of their distress.
It little matters for whom they weep. That they weep at all demonstrates the frailties and weaknesses of a normal, sensitive being who clings.....
To show siment and strong Compassion, and Supportive Metta is the best thing we can do. To Say and Do the Right Things is of critical importance, in order to leave those whose memory this will be, with a feeling of Peace and serenity, rather than one of bitterness and resentment.
people need to grieve. But for it to pass agreeably, it has to be wholesome.
I myself have no association with the condition of dead. That goes for myself also. I believe that once the body is gone - it is nothing more than lifeless flesh.
Me neither. But I notice elderly people do sometimes. I don't know if that's a symptom of age or something that their generation learned from its culture or whatever.
I would favor my family have fond memories and peace at my passing than weeping for the loss of things we were never able to share.
...
I also believe that most of us mourn the passing of a loved one mostly because of our loss and not the actual "death". They don't care if they ever see us again - because they're dead. It's actually the livings "loss".
Well, when I think of all my dead cats (that lived very long and comfortable lives) I have no regrets because I lavished them with love and attention. It's easy to do that with animals. There are no boundaries. They just soak up your love like sponges. It's the greatest gift they give us -- the opportunity to love them. But I do feel sad at my loss, as you say. And it seems that the world isn't as beautiful without them in it.
When I think of the premature death of a human being, for instance, my 38 year old neighbor. I think of his young 9 year old son left behind. And as long as his relatives live, they will suffer because of his death. But when all who knew him are gone - in a mere 80 or 90 years, it will be as if he never existed, perhaps. And it will not matter one bit whether he died at age 38 or age 95.
As for what the future thinks of us? I think they'll think "WTF!?!?!? What did these people do to the Earth and each other in such a short amount of time!?!?!?! Barbarians!!!!!"
Perhaps. But I hope some future person will come to my home by the lake and see the little wooden cross that my husband spent hours making after my last cat died. And see how he planed the edges to a bevel and varnished it so it wouldn't rot. And I hope someone will enjoy the wild azaleas planted all around and the mosaic grave marker I made with my cat's paw prints in the cement and his name spelled out in stones the precise color of his lumenescent orange eyes.
WickWoman, I know that some women who are hairdressers will do a deceased person's hair. My mom's hairdresser went over and did her body's hair to prepare for the service. We were touched by it. I wasn't touched by the minister saying "If you don't believe in Jesus like Alita believed in Jesus, you'll never see her again". Not the time nor the place. My AA buddies thought I was going to go for the man.
What a shame some seem to see every opportunity, no matter how inappropriate the timing, to burden others with their opressive belief system.
I know these are things most people don't think about. I have to think about them to respect the wishes of a patient's family and their wishes. I usually have multiple lines to deal with and thoughts of autopsy to boot. What I find strange is when someone is 80 years old, been sick for years, been in the ICU for a month and the family wants an autopsy. I have to bite my tongue on that one.
Hmmm. I would have to bite my tongue too. My 80 year old granny probably died of lung cancer. But when they saw a spot on her lung, she didn't want to know what it was. She always thought that she wouldn't want to die of cancer. She wasn't afraid to die, but she didn't want to die of cancer. So her children respected her wishes to receive no diagnosis or treatment of that spot. And she died only a few months later. She had a really good death. All her children were at her bedside and she died while they sang hymns to her.
"But I hope some future person will come to my home by the lake and see the little wooden cross that my husband spent hours making after my last cat died. And see how he planed the edges to a bevel and varnished it so it wouldn't rot. And I hope someone will enjoy the wild azaleas planted all around and the mosaic grave marker I made with his paw prints and his name spelled out in stones the precise color of his lumenescent orange eyes."
Wickwoman,
How beautiful.
Here on the farm we have buried our cats in the same way, with their names painted on stones, in a wooded garden of flowers, with love and gratitude, comforted by the knowledge that we did right by them and they by us. All the cats for miles know about this house and their catelepathy sends a new one to replace a lost one every time.
I was thinking about that at our neighbor's funeral, Federica, how important our response to the relatives would be. I have recently though about times of crises in my life and it seems what I remember most and what makes a crises so much more bearable is how just one person responded to you in a way that you needed them to. It could make the memories of a bad time, almost pleasant because we remember that one person and how supportive of us they were.
Here on the farm we have buried our cats in the same way, with their names painted on stones, in a wooded garden of flowers, with love and gratitude, comforted by the knowledge that we did right by them and they by us. All the cats for miles know about this house and their catelepathy sends a new one to replace a lost one every time.
Oh I am sure they do! I have often believed there is a "cat grape vine" that spreads the word about vacancies in very good cat homes like yours. My mother in law says she thinks cats come to visit me on a sort of karmaic vacation. She says there's this waiting list in the "other world" of cat's who have lived very good lives and want to take 15 or so years off and live with me. I bet you have one of those too! Perhaps in my next life I can get a vacation and come live with you!
The Tibetan sky burial if it is still performed, is a harsh but touching ceremony.
Anyway on a lighter note, there are some great alternatives for those seeking a change from the more mundane forms of, er, end of line disposal. Freeze drying (you could be made into a hat stand and put in the corner), cryogenics - being frozen, you can buried with certain minerals so that you slowly fossilize, buried at sea (with cannon ball for ballast), compressed into a cube and buried with an acorn so that you grow into a tree (my favourite at the moment), blasted into space, dropped into a volcano from a hovering helicopter, donate your body to science (you might be the best cadaver in the house). I am sure that a search on web will find many more, I know that there is guy with his wife in an airtight glass box (shudders).
I have a cousin who had her cat freeze dried. She's a nutcase.
I do sort of like the acorn thing too.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
Oriental Masters of the Martial Arts place great emphasis and importance on the breath... That it should be deep, (in the Hara/Dan Tien) and slow....
There is a belief that we are given a pre-ordained, pre-destined quantity of breaths in our lives... a fixed number... therefore, (they argue) it stands to reason that, even if the number is fixed, by breathing more slowly, we prolong this period...!! Sneaky, eh?
Oriental Masters of the Martial Arts place great emphasis and importance on the breath... That it should be deep, (in the Hara/Dan Tien) and slow....
There is a belief that we are given a pre-ordained, pre-destined quantity of breaths in our lives... a fixed number... therefore, (they argue) it stands to reason that, even if the number is fixed, by breathing more slowly, we prolong this period...!! Sneaky, eh?
(Damned inscrutable, these Orientals....!! )
when I read this I immediately started breathing deeply without planning it.
WickWoman,
As one who used to sit and listen to their relatives sit on the porch and sing old hymns, what a touching way to go.
All,
My partner heard of another way to be "interned". Your cremated body is formed into coal and hardened to make a small diamond and then you can wear the person as an earring or necklace. I think I would put it on a velvet pillow in a box though. I haven't told him this, but the whole idea of wearing him as jewelry creeps me out!
Back to memorials - my mother was very specific about her final resting place - good old ecologist that she was, she wanted cremating and her ashes scattering on a cliff above the sea where she had spent many happy days picking violets (well it's a job of sorts) and she could see the ships going by. She quite adamantly didn't want a memorial of any sort - that would be too much of a focus for people to be sad - she told me to chuck the ashes around in the general area, so that when people walked on the cliff path, they'd just think of her but not have a grave to weep over. I did it.
When I went to give blood a few years ago the Red Cross wouldn't take it because I had been living in the U.K. during the Mad Cow breakout. Does this mean that they won't take my organs? They probably don't want any but they could have my eyes, I have good eyesight and my friend gave her eyes when she died. We all liked that idea a lot. On my Donor Card, I told them to take anything they could use but I also have a note about living in the U.K. at that time.
My partner heard of another way to be "interned". Your cremated body is formed into coal and hardened to make a small diamond and then you can wear the person as an earring or necklace. I think I would put it on a velvet pillow in a box though. I haven't told him this, but the whole idea of wearing him as jewelry creeps me out!
Ha! I'd be afraid I'd loose him! I'm terrible about that.:hair:
Back to memorials - my mother was very specific about her final resting place - good old ecologist that she was, she wanted cremating and her ashes scattering on a cliff above the sea where she had spent many happy days picking violets (well it's a job of sorts) and she could see the ships going by. She quite adamantly didn't want a memorial of any sort - that would be too much of a focus for people to be sad - she told me to chuck the ashes around in the general area, so that when people walked on the cliff path, they'd just think of her but not have a grave to weep over. I did it.
Having attended and run quite a few "death workshops" in my HIV/AIDS work, having written and direcxted a few funerals too, I am extremely interested in the notion of disposal of a body being unimportant. I had an elderly client tell me that they didn't care what happened to their body after death. When I suggested that their ashes should be dumped in the dustbin, they found 'reasons' to have them 'scattered'.
And, IME, secularists are as insistent on some special way of treating remains as the faith-filled.
From what I've read, anthropologists and the like see it as a sort of landmark in the development of a civilization when they begin having ritualized disposal of dead bodies. It seems to be a universal human concern, outside of religion. You'll notice too, that it's not just people--even those who do not believe their pets have souls seem to want to bury them with respect. I'm actually very curious as to the source of this distinction and its importance to us. Is it simply a matter of differentiating between the remains of food--which go in the trash--and not food, which is buried? I know such rules become important in survival situations where dead bodies are cannibalized--the people forced to such lengths make very structured rules/rituals regarding what can be eaten, how, and when. It seems to help them hold onto themselves in such an extreme situation.
Having attended and run quite a few "death workshops" in my HIV/AIDS work, having written and direcxted a few funerals too, I am extremely interested in the notion of disposal of a body being unimportant. I had an elderly client tell me that they didn't care what happened to their body after death. When I suggested that their ashes should be dumped in the dustbin, they found 'reasons' to have them 'scattered'.
And, IME, secularists are as insistent on some special way of treating remains as the faith-filled.
Hmmm. Interesting. I don't mind the dustbin, I guess. But if someone told me I would be buried next to George W., I bet I could think of somehwere else I'd rather be. :tonguec:
With my cat, it seemed very important to the grief process, Pandora, to make a ritual out of the disposal of his body. I know the Israelites had very specific procedures re disposal of wastes, etc. I don't remember specifically if there was anything in the Bible about disposing of dead bodies.
When my Grandmother went to the Co-Op Funeral Directors, she told the young girl behind the Reception desk that she had come to pay for her funeral... the young girl replied 'But you're still alive!'
To which my Grandmother replied, 'Yes, thank you my dear!' The Manager came out of his office, failing to suppress a grin, and informed his assistant this was the pre-payment scheme....
My Grandmother had opted for cremation, as this was the least expensive option.
However, the Manager then proceeded to explain the different options for disposal of her ashes:
One was to be buried in her Husband's grave, but the price was outrageous.
The next option was to be scttaered ON her husband's grave....
But she pointed out that very soon afterwards, with a following breeze, she would be scattered over everybody else's as well....!
She finally told him:
If the fate of her ashes was so important to him he could keep them!
I find a by product of becoming a Buddhist and giving up my firm beliefs in an afterlife is that I am terrified of dying! My 40th birthday is a couple of weeks away, and I'm just terrfied of the idea that I will someday die.
It seems religion is such a comfort to us. It helps us avoid thinking about things we find uncomfortable. But, when we are no longer able to fool ourselves and make up some pretty Heaven to live in after death, we are faced with just death. And it seems that of all the thoughts with which we distract ourselves, the one thought we don't want to have is about dying.
Sometimes I think that every other worry I have is really just to distract myself from thinking about death. Do you ever feel that way? How do you feel about dying?
All humans instinctively fear what they do not understand. This is normal.
People fear death because:
1. It is out of their control
2. It means loosing everything you take for granted.
The best way to overcome your fear is to (carefully, gradually) learn about death. By which I mean come to an understanding of the nature of your life, and its eventual cessation.
Life is a precious wonderful thing. Enjoy this life you have, enjoy the opportunities you have, and choose wisely.
If there is any way I can help you, please ask me and I will try to answer any questions..
All humans instinctively fear what they do not understand. This is normal.
People fear death because:
1. It is out of their control
2. It means loosing everything you take for granted.
Strangely, those two are also very good descriptions of Buddhist practice.
Life is a precious wonderful thing. Enjoy this life you have, enjoy the opportunities you have, and choose wisely.
And we should keep dear the words of David Hume (the champion of modernity):
"Reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
So as modern worldliness dictates, cherish and enjoy this life; but know that when the grim reaper comes there is nothing beyond it. To think such is mere superstition.
Of course I am being ironic.
Life goes on after death. And so do we. Every inclination and affinity continues on like a soliton wave until we find again something to be born into, with which we resonate; thus, to be sustained by it; and eventually become deluded by it, only to die again.
The wheel of samsara only ends when we find pure mind, realizing that all things were just fabrications of this mind. Mind's thirst quenched, it becomes cool.
And we should keep dear the words of David Hume (the champion of modernity):
"Reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
So as modern worldliness dictates, cherish and enjoy this life; but know that when the grim reaper comes there is nothing beyond it. To think such is mere superstition.
Of course I am being ironic.
Life goes on after death. And so do we. Every inclination and affinity continues on like a soliton wave until we find again something to be born into, with which we resonate; thus, to be sustained by it; and eventually become deluded by it, only to die again.
The wheel of samsara only ends when we find pure mind, realizing that all things were just fabrications of this mind. Mind's thirst quenched, it becomes cool.
Yes, life goes on, but life as we know it, ends. We loose our friends, our home, our family, and our body.
The journey of Samsara ends when people realize the futility of their quest, and let go of what they are attached to, namely (the illusion of) ego and craving among others..
The journey of Samsara ends when people realize the futility of their quest, and let go of what they are attached to, namely (the illusion of) ego and craving among others..
Self: this temporary manifestation which I now call I :-)
It's all the same. The psychological phenom is a phenomenon of division; always separating from itself and regarding itself as "other".
"Now attend and listen: The senses meet the object and from their contact sensation is born. Thence results recollection. Thus, as the sun's power through a burning-glass causes fire to appear, so through the cognizance born of sense and object, the mind originates and with it the ego, the thought of self..."
It's all the same. The psychological phenom is a phenomenon of division; always separating from itself and regarding itself as "other".
"Now attend and listen: The senses meet the object and from their contact sensation is born. Thence results recollection. Thus, as the sun's power through a burning-glass causes fire to appear, so through the cognizance born of sense and object, the mind originates and with it the ego, the thought of self..."
The Sermon At Rajagaya
Thats brilliant. Probably the best description of Ego or I that I've seen..
Thanks for sharing that with us
I was thinking about my neighbor, Brian's, death this weekend. He was only 38 and died to esophagael cancer. His son is about 9 or so. Brian, when he was about his son's age, found his own father dead by suicide. It is my understanding Brian's father shot himself, and Brian was the first to find him.
I bet Brian spent his entire life vowing to never put his own son through such pain. Yet, the net effect of his death (though he did not selfishly end his own life) is that his son WILL indeed suffer a similar tragedy as he did. I bet this was very diffcult for Brian. And foremost on his mind when he died. I know his brother said Brian had asked him to take care of his son.
It's strange that I only thought of that recently. How very sad.
Comments
I wonder whether the 'health' of a society may not be able to be assessed from looking at the way they treat their dead. It is by burials that we are able to date the beginnings of human society and its growth. Rituals for death and dying are matters of study for archaeologists and anthropologists. I wonder what future researchers will deduce from our remains.
My own experience with the fundamentalists I grew up around is that they have very specific beliefs about how the body they have now will be new and improved when it is "raised" on the day Christ returns. And they tend to take pains to be sure their dead are presented nicely at a viewing. My mother's people would have the wake at the home of the deceased person. The family members would usually spend one night with their dead relative in the house while they slept and/or mourned over him/her.
There is a hairdresser at my parent's church who considers it her ministry or gift to deceased Christians to arrange their hair nicely for the funeral. I myself have given no thought to the presentation of my dead body. And would probably favor cremation.
A neighbor of ours died at the young age of 38 and was cremated just before Christmas. His remains were thrown into our lake. For some reason, I liked the idea of his remains being there. I think of him when I sit at the end of my dock.
I liked him. If I hadn't, I think perhaps it would trouble me that his ashes were floating around in the lake. I know he isn't in them, though. But, I often take a shortcut through a swampy area on his property when I'm walking over with my dog to visit my parents. This area is home to some beautiful big piliated woodpeckers and they call to each other. I always think of him now when I hear the woodpeckers calling each other.
I would favor cremation.
I would favor my family have fond memories and peace at my passing than weeping for the loss of things we were never able to share.
Death is a part of life. It has been so far removed from us that most of us don't know how to cope with it - myself included. At least that's what I believe.
I also believe that most of us mourn the passing of a loved one mostly because of our loss and not the actual "death". They don't care if they ever see us again - because they're dead. It's actually the livings "loss".
Wickwoman - I think your way of rememberance means so much more than someone lying in a grave that no one visits.
As for what the future thinks of us? I think they'll think "WTF!?!?!? What did these people do to the Earth and each other in such a short amount of time!?!?!?! Barbarians!!!!!"
-bf
BF, you're right about the grieving process. My mother nor sister were anymore. So it was left to those of us left here to grieve. I actually had a thought of something funny my sister said to me almost 20 years ago and laughed out loud about it. I'm sure she would have laughed too if she were still alive. But she isn't and that's okay. I've been able to move on since then.
WickWoman, I know that some women who are hairdressers will do a deceased person's hair. My mom's hairdresser went over and did her body's hair to prepare for the service. We were touched by it. I wasn't touched by the minister saying "If you don't believe in Jesus like Alita believed in Jesus, you'll never see her again". Not the time nor the place. My AA buddies thought I was going to go for the man.
I know these are things most people don't think about. I have to think about them to respect the wishes of a patient's family and their wishes. I usually have multiple lines to deal with and thoughts of autopsy to boot. What I find strange is when someone is 80 years old, been sick for years, been in the ICU for a month and the family wants an autopsy. I have to bite my tongue on that one.
Jer, it is an absurd logic on the part of our mad scientists to imagine that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the the brain. If this were the case we would act first then be consciousness of our actions!
In real life we are consciousness first, which triggers the brain. This means, like the Buddha said, we are consciousness attached to nama-rupa body. When the body craps out, our consciousness (which triggers) goes to another body. It could be a divine body, or that of an animal. It depends on our thoughts; if they were spiritual or material (emotive).
In the end it makes no difference what you do around someone who just died. They are going link with what they desire. You can speak with them in your heart and say follow the Buddha's teaching. For they are still here.
Skillful action can occur in the gap between sensation and reaction, but it will never be "conscious"!
If that were the case, your heart would stop beating whenever you go to sleep. Not good.
That brings up the subject of how we need to be completely Mindful with regard to the Eightfold path, and particularly Right Intention and Right Speech....
It's sometimes a case of not only having to deal with the dead and the dying, but the next-of-kin and bereaved.... sensitivities are heightened at this time... I'm in agreement with BF on the reasons why people mourn... It's more to do with the Mourner than the Mourned. So the sorrow they display is more grieving for the fact that they will never see that person again....
But that should only serve to nourish our compassion, and to make our Awareness more heightened in the face of their distress.
It little matters for whom they weep. That they weep at all demonstrates the frailties and weaknesses of a normal, sensitive being who clings.....
To show siment and strong Compassion, and Supportive Metta is the best thing we can do. To Say and Do the Right Things is of critical importance, in order to leave those whose memory this will be, with a feeling of Peace and serenity, rather than one of bitterness and resentment.
people need to grieve. But for it to pass agreeably, it has to be wholesome.
Me neither. But I notice elderly people do sometimes. I don't know if that's a symptom of age or something that their generation learned from its culture or whatever.
Well, when I think of all my dead cats (that lived very long and comfortable lives) I have no regrets because I lavished them with love and attention. It's easy to do that with animals. There are no boundaries. They just soak up your love like sponges. It's the greatest gift they give us -- the opportunity to love them. But I do feel sad at my loss, as you say. And it seems that the world isn't as beautiful without them in it.
When I think of the premature death of a human being, for instance, my 38 year old neighbor. I think of his young 9 year old son left behind. And as long as his relatives live, they will suffer because of his death. But when all who knew him are gone - in a mere 80 or 90 years, it will be as if he never existed, perhaps. And it will not matter one bit whether he died at age 38 or age 95.
Perhaps. But I hope some future person will come to my home by the lake and see the little wooden cross that my husband spent hours making after my last cat died. And see how he planed the edges to a bevel and varnished it so it wouldn't rot. And I hope someone will enjoy the wild azaleas planted all around and the mosaic grave marker I made with my cat's paw prints in the cement and his name spelled out in stones the precise color of his lumenescent orange eyes.
Cremation does seem more earth friendly, doesn't it?
What a shame some seem to see every opportunity, no matter how inappropriate the timing, to burden others with their opressive belief system.
Hmmm. I would have to bite my tongue too. My 80 year old granny probably died of lung cancer. But when they saw a spot on her lung, she didn't want to know what it was. She always thought that she wouldn't want to die of cancer. She wasn't afraid to die, but she didn't want to die of cancer. So her children respected her wishes to receive no diagnosis or treatment of that spot. And she died only a few months later. She had a really good death. All her children were at her bedside and she died while they sang hymns to her.
Wickwoman,
How beautiful.
Here on the farm we have buried our cats in the same way, with their names painted on stones, in a wooded garden of flowers, with love and gratitude, comforted by the knowledge that we did right by them and they by us. All the cats for miles know about this house and their catelepathy sends a new one to replace a lost one every time.
Brigid
Oh I am sure they do! I have often believed there is a "cat grape vine" that spreads the word about vacancies in very good cat homes like yours. My mother in law says she thinks cats come to visit me on a sort of karmaic vacation. She says there's this waiting list in the "other world" of cat's who have lived very good lives and want to take 15 or so years off and live with me. I bet you have one of those too! Perhaps in my next life I can get a vacation and come live with you!
I found this quote about death and thought it might be appropriate:
"As a well-spent day brings happy sleep, so life well used brings happy death."
Leonardo da Vinci (1452 - 1519)
But it makes me think I should reduce the consumtion of too many spicy foods when I get in my 80s or so.
Anyway on a lighter note, there are some great alternatives for those seeking a change from the more mundane forms of, er, end of line disposal. Freeze drying (you could be made into a hat stand and put in the corner), cryogenics - being frozen, you can buried with certain minerals so that you slowly fossilize, buried at sea (with cannon ball for ballast), compressed into a cube and buried with an acorn so that you grow into a tree (my favourite at the moment), blasted into space, dropped into a volcano from a hovering helicopter, donate your body to science (you might be the best cadaver in the house). I am sure that a search on web will find many more, I know that there is guy with his wife in an airtight glass box (shudders).
I do sort of like the acorn thing too.
There is a belief that we are given a pre-ordained, pre-destined quantity of breaths in our lives... a fixed number... therefore, (they argue) it stands to reason that, even if the number is fixed, by breathing more slowly, we prolong this period...!! Sneaky, eh?
(Damned inscrutable, these Orientals....!!
when I read this I immediately started breathing deeply without planning it.
don't forget to lend someone else your organs before you burn, or freeze, or whatever...
Mmmm! Some freeze dried cat actually sounds pretty good right now.
-bf
I meant with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
-bf
As one who used to sit and listen to their relatives sit on the porch and sing old hymns, what a touching way to go.
All,
My partner heard of another way to be "interned". Your cremated body is formed into coal and hardened to make a small diamond and then you can wear the person as an earring or necklace. I think I would put it on a velvet pillow in a box though. I haven't told him this, but the whole idea of wearing him as jewelry creeps me out!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! You are as demented as I am BF!
I thought I was doing okay.
Fede pm'd me and told me that as long as I just used the feathers of a chicken - and not the whole chicken - I was just "kinky".
Maybe I really am demented because I don't think she knew where I was getting the feathers from...
-bf
-bf
1) I'm going to go off topic, so don't get yer panties in a bunch.
2) I mean to disrespect to anyone's post here - this is kind of off topic.
That being said:
Did anyone else enjoy it as much as I did when Walter cast Donnie's ashes into "the bosom of the Pacific" while The Dude was watching?
I almost died from laughing.
-bf
Twobitbob,
When I went to give blood a few years ago the Red Cross wouldn't take it because I had been living in the U.K. during the Mad Cow breakout. Does this mean that they won't take my organs? They probably don't want any but they could have my eyes, I have good eyesight and my friend gave her eyes when she died. We all liked that idea a lot. On my Donor Card, I told them to take anything they could use but I also have a note about living in the U.K. at that time.
Brigid
Ha! I'd be afraid I'd loose him! I'm terrible about that.:hair:
:wow:
I like that idea.
And, IME, secularists are as insistent on some special way of treating remains as the faith-filled.
Hmmm. Interesting. I don't mind the dustbin, I guess. But if someone told me I would be buried next to George W., I bet I could think of somehwere else I'd rather be. :tonguec:
To which my Grandmother replied, 'Yes, thank you my dear!' The Manager came out of his office, failing to suppress a grin, and informed his assistant this was the pre-payment scheme....
My Grandmother had opted for cremation, as this was the least expensive option.
However, the Manager then proceeded to explain the different options for disposal of her ashes:
One was to be buried in her Husband's grave, but the price was outrageous.
The next option was to be scttaered ON her husband's grave....
But she pointed out that very soon afterwards, with a following breeze, she would be scattered over everybody else's as well....!
She finally told him:
If the fate of her ashes was so important to him he could keep them!
People fear death because:
1. It is out of their control
2. It means loosing everything you take for granted.
The best way to overcome your fear is to (carefully, gradually) learn about death. By which I mean come to an understanding of the nature of your life, and its eventual cessation.
Life is a precious wonderful thing. Enjoy this life you have, enjoy the opportunities you have, and choose wisely.
If there is any way I can help you, please ask me and I will try to answer any questions..
Strangely, those two are also very good descriptions of Buddhist practice.
And we should keep dear the words of David Hume (the champion of modernity):
"Reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
So as modern worldliness dictates, cherish and enjoy this life; but know that when the grim reaper comes there is nothing beyond it. To think such is mere superstition.
Of course I am being ironic.
Life goes on after death. And so do we. Every inclination and affinity continues on like a soliton wave until we find again something to be born into, with which we resonate; thus, to be sustained by it; and eventually become deluded by it, only to die again.
The wheel of samsara only ends when we find pure mind, realizing that all things were just fabrications of this mind. Mind's thirst quenched, it becomes cool.
Yes, life goes on, but life as we know it, ends. We loose our friends, our home, our family, and our body.
The journey of Samsara ends when people realize the futility of their quest, and let go of what they are attached to, namely (the illusion of) ego and craving among others..
What is attached to (the illusion of
It's all the same. The psychological phenom is a phenomenon of division; always separating from itself and regarding itself as "other".
"Now attend and listen: The senses meet the object and from their contact sensation is born. Thence results recollection. Thus, as the sun's power through a burning-glass causes fire to appear, so through the cognizance born of sense and object, the mind originates and with it the ego, the thought of self..."
The Sermon At Rajagaya
Thats brilliant. Probably the best description of Ego or I that I've seen..
Thanks for sharing that with us
I bet Brian spent his entire life vowing to never put his own son through such pain. Yet, the net effect of his death (though he did not selfishly end his own life) is that his son WILL indeed suffer a similar tragedy as he did. I bet this was very diffcult for Brian. And foremost on his mind when he died. I know his brother said Brian had asked him to take care of his son.
It's strange that I only thought of that recently. How very sad.