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Does your view not equate to the end of literal rebirth, thus the end of future lives, and is therefore "short term happiness" in this life, as well? Is that not what most formal traditions teach? And what makes you think the motivation is purely for one's own self? You're projecting.
Its not "my view" this is a very common Mahayana view breakdown.
I didnt say that the motivation for short term benefit was bad, its a valid view and approach to practice, its just not the ideal.
you're the one that is projecting. you're making a series of assumptions that dont really have any relevence to the discussion.
Motivations for practice are diverse but can be easily broken down into 3.
Practice for ones own benefit in this life. Practice for a better rebirth, and practice for total Buddhahood for the benefit of all beings.
Since they are all three Buddhist methods they all three have their level of relevance and profundity in Buddhist practice.
Just like all the vehicles are profound methods for liberation these three motivations for practice have their benefits etc.
The hostility that one encounters if they are actually posting from a traditional Buddhist perspective on these boards is offputting to say the least.
One of the beauties of Buddhism in my mind, is that "miracles" are possible all around us without having to rely on blind faith and the next life. I have seen, with my very own eyes, people change their reality in the here and now. What's more, I know there are those who have changed their lives and the people who surround them who can attest that it is hard to believe that is the same person. I don't have to blindly believe stories passed down generation after generation and consequently tweaked by those who interpret them. I don't have to depend on those in the know to tell me how to think, feel or act. It seems to me that the vast majority of those who have all the answers, also have an agenda.
Incidentally, these changes I am speaking of occur without any faith in Buddha whatsoever for most. People who have no belief can follow the teachings and benefit.
I don't know if there is an afterlife. I am a skeptic. To some, I may not be a true Buddhist because I don't adhere strictly to their beliefs. That is fine. To my way of thinking, dwelling on thoughts like that suggests they themselves don't strictly practice Buddhism either.
As for me, I am satisfied with the evidence that lies before me in the here and now. The rest of it I will have to sort out when I die, or not.
It's smart to be terrified of death. Only a person in denial does not experience a moment of naked animal fear now and then. Lets not kid ourselves with comforting fictions. This will end badly.
That real fear is a good place to start. It's a good gateway to practice. Its raw and real and can, when fully felt, lead to a powerful opening.
i'm terrified of the race of humans destroying themselves and 99%+ of all other species on earth, but that is what is currently happening.
i need to have more faith in the cosmos, with its ability to generate an endless supply of buddhas in all times and places across the universe. but my ego has become attached to siddartha and my conception of what he has meant to the race of intelligent idiots that we call human beings. that is very foolish of me, of course, and siddhartha would certainly scold me over it.
so my only real question is, are there any other beings in the universe which don't suffer the hyper-successful yet ultimately-fatal survivalist flaw that we do on earth? that is, is there some miracle species somewhere out there which isn't programmed to replicate ASAP and use up all available resources without regard to their sustainability...?
It's smart to be terrified of death. Only a person in denial does not experience a moment of naked animal fear now and then.
I believe it is suffering to be terrified of death. Many people who have accepted the inevitable are not terrified of death and they are not in denial.
I believe it is suffering to be terrified of death. Many people who have accepted the inevitable are not terrified of death and they are not in denial.
If someone puts plastic bag over your head and pulls it tight. You will struggle and kick and lose yourself in existential panic, until the oxygen flow to your brain ceases. Then you will be calm.:).
I am not afraid of death, but am not beyond experiencing naked animal fear under certain circumstances. Maybe you are, doubt it though.
It's smart to be terrified of death. Only a person in denial does not experience a moment of naked animal fear now and then.
The thought of death was terrifying for me as a child and young adult. As I have grown older that terror has diminished significantly to a very small level if it exists at all. This lack of naked animal fear may be due to feeling less like an animal than when I was younger.
If someone puts plastic bag over your head and pulls it tight. You will struggle and kick and lose yourself in existential panic, until the oxygen flow to your brain ceases. Then you will be calm.:).
I am not afraid of death, but am not beyond experiencing naked animal fear under certain circumstances. Maybe you are, doubt it though.
I am trying to lose my fear of it. That is part of the journey. Usually, death isn't so dramatically introduced as you have described. I don't know for certain that I would not panic. Never the less, there have been many instances where people have experienced death and not reacted in terror. W ould it be possible to know one is about to die and accept the inevitable? Helen Kubler Ross describes it as a process that may occur and she feels if people are able to navigate death completely and successfully, it ends up in acceptance. Buddhists study death with the goal in mind being acceptance.
To view life as just a tube is valid for individual body systems. Once all these "tubes" interconnect to make up a human being, just one tube doesn't work. I realize that there are other life forms where this may apply. My area of interest is anatomy and physiology of humans. When you see persons with severe illness where one of these "tubes" are breaking down, it is easier to see someone as a person. Not a soul, just a person. Sometimes the phenomenon of MODS (multi organ dysfunction syndrome) occurs and for most death is imminent. Not wanted or pleasant for most, but still going to occur. I was in the hospital again a couple of weeks ago and had one of the lowest scores on the nervous system to be declared alive. I'm back to me, but when I found out, I was kind of freaked. But if I would have expired, I wouldn't have known.
Not all of us do something that is terribly important over the course of time as we know it, but eveyone deserves to be treated as what they are doing is important. Not being able to practice nursing right now has been tough on me as I realize it is an important thing to do. But I also think the people who clean the patient rooms and other menial jobs are doins something just as import. I'm ever so gratefrul for them. I try to remember no matter what one is doing, it is adding something to mankind. I prefer to remember those doing something positive. Just an initial thought on your post. Feel free to rip this apart.
If I misunderstood, I apologize. Can you be more specific?
hey Five,
a apologize as well. i should have been more clear.
no hard feelings.
i elaborated a bit more in a post above. its still probably not the best explanation though.
A really good commentary on the motivations for practice can be found in Deshung Rinpoche's wonderful book The Three Levels of Spiritual Perception which is an under appreciated and extraordinary Dharma book. Good commentaries are also in Words of My Perfect Teacher and Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chenmo.
You don't need anything more than what you have. If you accept reality and sit with it, the terror subsides.
this is what i try to work on and yes, i can sense progress in this area. slowly. amidst anger and depression.
to be sure, i greatly admire people who can be aware of the profoundly negative aspects of humanity and civilisation and yet find the experience in sum to be wonderful.
I believe that consciousness always feels individual, and is not really felt to be like a cosmic consciousness of some kind. (The idea of cosmic consciousness only makes sense in the imagination within our mind.)
I believe we experience this Ultimate Self (Buddha Nature) directly, but unfortunately mix this feeling up with the ego, and think that the feeling itself is also ego or personality. It is not.
So that, when we throw out the bath water (ego), we also throw out the baby (Pure Consciousness), (in our conceptual constructs), and consequently feel bereft, and confused to be seeing ourselves as nothing, (and not just this story self as nothing). But vacuous emptiness is simply not the case.
I would ask you to question, "What is our Buddha Nature?" and "What exactly is it that Buddha woke up to?"
No self (anatta) means no story self, or no was born and consequently will die self. That is the definition of finitude with abides within the mind.
Pure Consciousness knows itself as the 'Eternal I Am,' or if you wish "Buddha Nature," and is both omnipresent (everywhere center) and omnipotent (the One without another).
Each and every life on this planet knows this Self directly as “Me,” this very 'One' dressed differently in the costume of story.
This eternal ‘Me’ is so obvious, and so intimate, that of course you cannot give it up easily. It goes against every Spiritual instinct that you have. Spiritual insight is telling you that it is impossible. Give up that, innate wisdom, and than who can you trust? (If not yourself, who?)
Wisdom is a higher virtue than any one’s gospel, or tradition. ANYONE’S!
.................................
Not all of us do something that is terribly important over the course of time as we know it, but eveyone deserves to be treated as what they are doing is important. Not being able to practice nursing right now has been tough on me as I realize it is an important thing to do. But I also think the people who clean the patient rooms and other menial jobs are doins something just as import. I'm ever so gratefrul for them. I try to remember no matter what one is doing, it is adding something to mankind. I prefer to remember those doing something positive. Just an initial thought on your post. Feel free to rip this apart.
If you are prepared to learn from a non-Buddhist source, you may find value in a book to which I return again and again: The Stature of Waiting by Vanstone.
This book, along with the poetry of Rilke, taught me to see the praiseworthy everywhere, even (or, perhaps, especially) in passivity and apparent blameworthiness.
I agree with Allbuddha in this, that most people do not die in a panic.
Often, when it is time to go, move on, it is a relief, or even a blessing.
(I have worked with the dying for years.)
Buddhism is a fine example, or a method used in preparing for death. If done correctly, “You die before you die.”
In other words, you have died to your “wrongful identification” with the body, and with the ego personality while still alive. So that death is more like walking out of one room, and into another, no big deal.
Some have said that, "Only when you make peace with your own death, can you truly live."
i have actually suffered from an anxiety disorder known to some as hypercondria, it is pretty horrible. i first remember having something closely linked to this when i was 12. i am now 21 and i still have it, yet it is not as bad now. maybe because these days i tend to push it to the back of my mind and forget it. it could be anything, a lump, a specific cough, being tired, literally anything that can make my mind jump to the conclusion i am dying. this is maybe wrong as one day i will have something wrong with me and not get it looked at. but the fear of death, yes it is something we all go through, and we all have to confront. our basic survival instincts are based around not wanting to die... with my anxiety disorder, i have been through hell several times CONVINCED i am dying, once nearly killed myself as i was so sure but a friend talked me around. I am glad to not be that deep in it right now, but this whole conception of dying is still scary to me. especially dying young... can anyone advise me here...?? thank you and it is a good thread topic tom x
I agree with Allbuddha in this, that most people do not die in a panic.
Often, when it is time to go, move on, it is a relief, or even a blessing.
(I have worked with the dying for years.)
Buddhism is a fine example, or a method used in preparing for death. If done correctly, “You die before you die.”
In other words, you have died to your “wrongful identification” with the body, and with the ego personality while still alive. So that death is more like walking out of one room, and into another, no big deal.
Some have said that, "Only when you make peace with your own death, can you truly live."
S9
It depends. I knew a guy who had tremendous equinimity around his own terminal cancer, but who lost it when his younger sister died in a housefire and he could not get to her. Someone actually had the cheek to ask him what happened to his equinimity. Ive seen people die very peacfully in hospital, but do not think any less of someones practice if they honestly go through fear. We can get idealistic about how we should die as well.
i have actually suffered from an anxiety disorder known to some as hypercondria, it is pretty horrible. i first remember having something closely linked to this when i was 12. i am now 21 and i still have it, yet it is not as bad now. maybe because these days i tend to push it to the back of my mind and forget it. it could be anything, a lump, a specific cough, being tired, literally anything that can make my mind jump to the conclusion i am dying. this is maybe wrong as one day i will have something wrong with me and not get it looked at. but the fear of death, yes it is something we all go through, and we all have to confront. our basic survival instincts are based around not wanting to die... with my anxiety disorder, i have been through hell several times CONVINCED i am dying, once nearly killed myself as i was so sure but a friend talked me around. I am glad to not be that deep in it right now, but this whole conception of dying is still scary to me. especially dying young... can anyone advise me here...?? thank you and it is a good thread topic tom x
Hi tom. i dont know if this quite connects with where your coming from, but when my old man died of cancer (I was 16) there was a period of time when I was very paranoid about cancer and would break into a cold sweat at the presence of a lump or persistent headache. What made this fear diminish and disappear over time was a combination of being wrong about this self diagnosis over and over again, and learning mindfullness practice. After a while the thoughts and fears where simply not believed anymore.
Some people are more afraid of life, and what it can do to you and others, than they are of death.
Anticipation of all that can befall us is like a “death of thousand cuts,” whereas, you only actually die once.
(Anxiety being fear of the future.)
I too knew a fellow, who came home from work one day to find his house in flames with his wife and children inside. He was unable to get to them, held back by others, while listening to their agonizing screams.
This haunted him greatly…this utter lack of control. He often said that he wished that he had died with them. He gladly would have shared their agony. Being spared apparently was a worse agony for him.
Death was preferable to him, over continued life with such a memory.
Our minds are highly suggestible, and so if we start to think about our body and all that can go wrong with it, we are really in for it.
By sheer concentration we can become (overly) sensitive to extremely small discomforts that would normally go unnoticed. It is not that they aren't real. It is that we have become hypersensitive to them.
For instance, you can make a finger hurt, just by thinking my finger hurts over and over again, even though it doesn’t actually hurt, just by persisting in that thought for a while. But, everything has its "yes" and its "no."
The fact that you could torture yourself to such a great extent, shows me that you have a good capacity and a strong mind. This same mind harnessed and used to your good could actually bring you great benefit. A good mind is a terrible thing to waste. : ^ )
Choose your focus, and become master of your own mind.
Some people are more afraid of life, and what it can do to you and others, than they are of death.
Anticipation of all that can befall us is like a “death of thousand cuts,” whereas, you only actually die once.
(Anxiety being fear of the future.)
I too knew a fellow, who came home from work one day to find his house in flames with his wife and children inside. He was unable to get to them, held back by others, while listening to their agonizing screams.
This haunted him greatly…this utter lack of control. He often said that he wished that he had died with them. He gladly would have shared their agony. Being spared apparently was a worse agony for him.
Death was preferable to him, over continued life with such a memory.
S9
I agree that the death of others is more painful than the thought of my own. My fear was always to die before my son was grown, to deprive him of his father. ...And there is always something unspeakable about a child dying before a parent. As far as my own death is concerened, there was nothing gained when I am born, and nothing lost when I die.
My point is that one can never be sure what will come up in dying , and whatever it may be, whether it is fear, or peace...is ok. One of the things we can do is measure ourselves by an idea of how we should be if we are "awake", including how we die.
Comments
Its not "my view" this is a very common Mahayana view breakdown.
I didnt say that the motivation for short term benefit was bad, its a valid view and approach to practice, its just not the ideal.
you're the one that is projecting. you're making a series of assumptions that dont really have any relevence to the discussion.
Motivations for practice are diverse but can be easily broken down into 3.
Practice for ones own benefit in this life. Practice for a better rebirth, and practice for total Buddhahood for the benefit of all beings.
Since they are all three Buddhist methods they all three have their level of relevance and profundity in Buddhist practice.
Just like all the vehicles are profound methods for liberation these three motivations for practice have their benefits etc.
The hostility that one encounters if they are actually posting from a traditional Buddhist perspective on these boards is offputting to say the least.
Incidentally, these changes I am speaking of occur without any faith in Buddha whatsoever for most. People who have no belief can follow the teachings and benefit.
I don't know if there is an afterlife. I am a skeptic. To some, I may not be a true Buddhist because I don't adhere strictly to their beliefs. That is fine. To my way of thinking, dwelling on thoughts like that suggests they themselves don't strictly practice Buddhism either.
As for me, I am satisfied with the evidence that lies before me in the here and now. The rest of it I will have to sort out when I die, or not.
Namaste
That real fear is a good place to start. It's a good gateway to practice. Its raw and real and can, when fully felt, lead to a powerful opening.
i need to have more faith in the cosmos, with its ability to generate an endless supply of buddhas in all times and places across the universe. but my ego has become attached to siddartha and my conception of what he has meant to the race of intelligent idiots that we call human beings. that is very foolish of me, of course, and siddhartha would certainly scold me over it.
so my only real question is, are there any other beings in the universe which don't suffer the hyper-successful yet ultimately-fatal survivalist flaw that we do on earth? that is, is there some miracle species somewhere out there which isn't programmed to replicate ASAP and use up all available resources without regard to their sustainability...?
You don't need anything more than what you have. If you accept reality and sit with it, the terror subsides.
I believe it is suffering to be terrified of death. Many people who have accepted the inevitable are not terrified of death and they are not in denial.
I am not afraid of death, but am not beyond experiencing naked animal fear under certain circumstances. Maybe you are, doubt it though.
The thought of death was terrifying for me as a child and young adult. As I have grown older that terror has diminished significantly to a very small level if it exists at all. This lack of naked animal fear may be due to feeling less like an animal than when I was younger.
I am trying to lose my fear of it. That is part of the journey. Usually, death isn't so dramatically introduced as you have described. I don't know for certain that I would not panic. Never the less, there have been many instances where people have experienced death and not reacted in terror. W ould it be possible to know one is about to die and accept the inevitable? Helen Kubler Ross describes it as a process that may occur and she feels if people are able to navigate death completely and successfully, it ends up in acceptance. Buddhists study death with the goal in mind being acceptance.
To view life as just a tube is valid for individual body systems. Once all these "tubes" interconnect to make up a human being, just one tube doesn't work. I realize that there are other life forms where this may apply. My area of interest is anatomy and physiology of humans. When you see persons with severe illness where one of these "tubes" are breaking down, it is easier to see someone as a person. Not a soul, just a person. Sometimes the phenomenon of MODS (multi organ dysfunction syndrome) occurs and for most death is imminent. Not wanted or pleasant for most, but still going to occur. I was in the hospital again a couple of weeks ago and had one of the lowest scores on the nervous system to be declared alive. I'm back to me, but when I found out, I was kind of freaked. But if I would have expired, I wouldn't have known.
Not all of us do something that is terribly important over the course of time as we know it, but eveyone deserves to be treated as what they are doing is important. Not being able to practice nursing right now has been tough on me as I realize it is an important thing to do. But I also think the people who clean the patient rooms and other menial jobs are doins something just as import. I'm ever so gratefrul for them. I try to remember no matter what one is doing, it is adding something to mankind. I prefer to remember those doing something positive. Just an initial thought on your post. Feel free to rip this apart.
a apologize as well. i should have been more clear.
no hard feelings.
i elaborated a bit more in a post above. its still probably not the best explanation though.
A really good commentary on the motivations for practice can be found in Deshung Rinpoche's wonderful book The Three Levels of Spiritual Perception which is an under appreciated and extraordinary Dharma book. Good commentaries are also in Words of My Perfect Teacher and Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chenmo.
to be sure, i greatly admire people who can be aware of the profoundly negative aspects of humanity and civilisation and yet find the experience in sum to be wonderful.
Referring back to post # 184:
I believe that consciousness always feels individual, and is not really felt to be like a cosmic consciousness of some kind. (The idea of cosmic consciousness only makes sense in the imagination within our mind.)
I believe we experience this Ultimate Self (Buddha Nature) directly, but unfortunately mix this feeling up with the ego, and think that the feeling itself is also ego or personality. It is not.
So that, when we throw out the bath water (ego), we also throw out the baby (Pure Consciousness), (in our conceptual constructs), and consequently feel bereft, and confused to be seeing ourselves as nothing, (and not just this story self as nothing). But vacuous emptiness is simply not the case.
I would ask you to question, "What is our Buddha Nature?" and "What exactly is it that Buddha woke up to?"
No self (anatta) means no story self, or no was born and consequently will die self. That is the definition of finitude with abides within the mind.
Pure Consciousness knows itself as the 'Eternal I Am,' or if you wish "Buddha Nature," and is both omnipresent (everywhere center) and omnipotent (the One without another).
Each and every life on this planet knows this Self directly as “Me,” this very 'One' dressed differently in the costume of story.
This eternal ‘Me’ is so obvious, and so intimate, that of course you cannot give it up easily. It goes against every Spiritual instinct that you have. Spiritual insight is telling you that it is impossible. Give up that, innate wisdom, and than who can you trust? (If not yourself, who?)
Wisdom is a higher virtue than any one’s gospel, or tradition. ANYONE’S!
S9
If you are prepared to learn from a non-Buddhist source, you may find value in a book to which I return again and again: The Stature of Waiting by Vanstone.
This book, along with the poetry of Rilke, taught me to see the praiseworthy everywhere, even (or, perhaps, especially) in passivity and apparent blameworthiness.
Often, when it is time to go, move on, it is a relief, or even a blessing.
(I have worked with the dying for years.)
Buddhism is a fine example, or a method used in preparing for death. If done correctly, “You die before you die.”
In other words, you have died to your “wrongful identification” with the body, and with the ego personality while still alive. So that death is more like walking out of one room, and into another, no big deal.
Some have said that, "Only when you make peace with your own death, can you truly live."
S9
Some people are more afraid of life, and what it can do to you and others, than they are of death.
Anticipation of all that can befall us is like a “death of thousand cuts,” whereas, you only actually die once.
(Anxiety being fear of the future.)
I too knew a fellow, who came home from work one day to find his house in flames with his wife and children inside. He was unable to get to them, held back by others, while listening to their agonizing screams.
This haunted him greatly…this utter lack of control. He often said that he wished that he had died with them. He gladly would have shared their agony. Being spared apparently was a worse agony for him.
Death was preferable to him, over continued life with such a memory.
S9
Our minds are highly suggestible, and so if we start to think about our body and all that can go wrong with it, we are really in for it.
By sheer concentration we can become (overly) sensitive to extremely small discomforts that would normally go unnoticed. It is not that they aren't real. It is that we have become hypersensitive to them.
For instance, you can make a finger hurt, just by thinking my finger hurts over and over again, even though it doesn’t actually hurt, just by persisting in that thought for a while. But, everything has its "yes" and its "no."
The fact that you could torture yourself to such a great extent, shows me that you have a good capacity and a strong mind. This same mind harnessed and used to your good could actually bring you great benefit. A good mind is a terrible thing to waste. : ^ )
Choose your focus, and become master of your own mind.
S9
My point is that one can never be sure what will come up in dying , and whatever it may be, whether it is fear, or peace...is ok. One of the things we can do is measure ourselves by an idea of how we should be if we are "awake", including how we die.