I believe someone people are natually already enlightened!!! Please read and let me expalin? x

zenmyste

I know some people who *are* exactly what buddha preached to become, but they are not actually buddhist nor do they practice any religion.

My grandad who died at 90 last year. was very buddhist like. He actually always reminded me of a Buddhist enlightened master or something lol. Nothing ever got to him. His words and stories he used to tell us to inspire us were very Zen/Buddhist/Stoic..

When our grandma died, he used to always smile and said we need to remember the good times, but keep our concentration on the here and now etc etc...Nothing ever fazed him. *NOTHING*

However he always said he didnt follow anything. Because all answers are within.
And ive always felt like he didnt *need* guidence like i do. I love reading buddhas teachings and think i ca benifit from them, But do you think some people just dont *need* buddhist help??

He was the most generous guy ever aswell. Gave gave gave, with nothing back. But he didnt *need* anything he used to say. As hes got it all within.

What are your thoughts on others being natually just enlightened. Understanding life without being on the spirtual path. Perhaps the spiritual path isnt for everyone is it?? maybe some dont need to walk down this road?

Thoughts????

zenmyste

he used to say exactly what the dalai lama says...''I religion is simple, my religion is kindness'' (i swear thats what he used to say) i couldnt believe it when i heard dalai lama say it. lol

SherabDorje

I don't doubt it in the least. In Mahayana/Vajrayana, the fundamental principle is that individuals are already enlightened and have Buddha-nature. HHDL was quoted as saying just a day or two ago in Washington, D.C. that it is more important to be a good person than to practice any particular religion.

I agree with you. It's possible that there are some that need no structured path. :om:

Yishai

I believe it. I also think that some people naturally walk the path. It's hard to say what was going on in his mind at all times. Hard to say if he was enlightened when we don't even know what it means to be that way. Sounds like he was though or at the very least, close to it.

Hard to say what was going on in his mind to know if he had freed himself from all fetters, but I'm sure his rebirth will be a happy one. Sounds like a great, peaceful man. Glad you had such a great grandpa.

person

I think its important to distinguish between wisdom and the liberation and enlightenment taught in Buddhism. Anyone can be wise by learning from their experience and while contemplating on a religious tradition can help it can also hurt and isn't required. Also if you take karma and rebirth into account then these naturally wise people can have spent past lives cultivating wisdom so that their past karma easily ripens into understanding in this life. Attaining liberation or Buddhahood I think requires an intensive meditation practice though.

Talisman

Maybe your grandpa was a Boddhisattva.

Yishai

We don't know the grandfather's meditation practice. We don't know his state of mind. Therefore, we cannot say. So, the point is moot. Obviously, he was a happy, peaceful old man. And that is quite enough to know that he was far along the path. He may have cultivated wisdom in his past lives, but that just furthers the idea that he is far along the path to enlightenment, but he could also be there.

How else do you expect an enlightened being to act? What would be the one thing that happens that makes you go "Aha! That person is enlightened!"

Is it that they are peaceful, happy, and have sound wisdom? Is it that they meditate? Some people naturally meditate. You don't have to sit to do it. Before I ever knew about Buddhism, I would try to calm my mind on my own. Seems natural to me. Everything about Buddhism seems natural to me, which is kinda why I like it.

Maybe your grandpa was a Boddhisattva.

Another possibility. We cannot say for sure. Your grandfather sounds like an excellent man though.

zenmyste

Thanks everyone!! your right, 'we dont know exactly what enlightenment is but like i said, he was the nearest thing to what one could be. My mother has many stories also about him. Growing up with him was the best thing, He always seemed to so chilled out, always relaxed, always seemed to know what to say and do in every moment.

Her brother died at a young age. (my grandpa's son)
and she used to say how he never seemd shaken by it. He would do everything he could to support everyone through the hard time but *he* never seemed to get upset, angry, and always had a smile on him. etc etc..

but anyway thanks for your thoughts. i agree some ppl are just walking the path even without knowing it. x

thickpaper

Yea, I don't see why not either. Remember, its the authoritarian Buddhist orthodoxy that has made enlightenment so unspecificable and unobtainable, not the Buddha.

The Buddha became enlightened and what did he do? Just taught dharmma for 50 years as a seemingly ordinary guy. (All the magical stuff came from augmentations hundreds of years later).

IronRabbit

zenmyste - how fortunate you are to have such a relative - even if he has died he lives in you which you have demonstrated by the tremendous impact he has had on your life - now as when he lived you have his example of loving kindness emblazened in your conciousness - whether enlightened, bodhisattva, arhat or just grandfather - he has given you that which you now may give if you choose to enact such a karmic connection.

genkaku

Someone once said, "Understanding is knowing to get out of the way of an on-coming bus. Practice is for the bus you didn't see coming."

aMatt

Perhaps the spiritual path isnt for everyone is it?? maybe some dont need to walk down this road?

Thoughts????

He walked the road! It doesn't take a robes, a monestary, or a handbook to be spiritual. Thanks for the story of your grandpa, I am grateful to be touched by his legacy.

zen_world

If he has a peaceful mind he doesn't need meditation, if he has a stable mind he doesn't need meditation. Some people like your grandfather has a very peaceful and stable mind. Their whole life, even their sleep is meditation.
You don't need zazen or go thru vajrayana inititations then to become enlightened when you already have that kind of peaceful and stable mind.

jll

Even the Buddha was not naturally enlightened.
Some people due to their good karma have wholesome qualities.
But they still need to practice to reach nirvana.

zen_world

Even the Buddha was not naturally enlightened.
Some people due to their good karma have wholesome qualities.
But they still need to practice to reach nirvana.

You don't know that! There are different levels of enlightenment, may be reaching all the way requires practice but you can achieve some form of enlightenment without practice.
Some people achieve awakening or kundalini etc. with no meditation experience whatsoever.. It just happens....

compassionate_warrior

zenmyste, in the Tibetan tradition, bodhisattvas are everywhere. I think it was the 16th Karmapa who said, "They're all over the place. But you'd have a hard time finding them. They're not going to look like me." (meaning: robes, shaved head, Asian countenance) So it sounds like your Granpa might have been one. Clearly, he was a highly realized being of some sort, and you were lucky to have known him, and to have been close to him.
:om:

kaci

sometimes i wonder if the idea of "enlightment" is really very useful .. it tends to have the connotation of a state of perfection. whether or not that may be (which seems somehow contrary to the idea of dukkha/imperfection and therefor right view) i think that there is a mythology about this in normal conception that is not only abused but perhaps not even really appropriate - i say this as i have noticed that it leads not only to confusion but sometimes delusion. eg. i know people that have had amazing experiences that went on to assume that they were therefor "enlightened" and that there was no reason for further progress. furthermore, some go on to assume that therefor anything they do is ok (due to a misconception about this sort of thing in the popular mind) - i will abstain from pointing fingers but this has had a very deleterious effect on people that believed them and listened to their teaching. and, there are those that will fake it for a living - again, i am not pointing fingers - merely stating what i have seen.

so, my thought is that it might be better to think of a more analogue process of awakening, improvement and development of abilities, skillfulness, states of consciousness, and so on which is punctuated by moments or periods of profound realization ... but, without assuming that, eh, "the holy life is over" or that so and so is "enlightened" in a static sense, maybe "wise" is a better word? and no, i am not sure how to reconcile this with the concept of arahat or nibbana - i welcome ideas about that.

which is to say - yep, plenty of wise people in different traditions and no traditions; look up paccebuddha.

zen_world

@kaci
IMO, it is not necessary to make such conclusions...There are different people at different paths with different spiritual levels. What works for someone may not work for another...Whatever helps is fine.

kaci

that's sort of what i was saying - the question though is if the concept or word "enlightened" makes it easier or more likely that people will unconsciously make those assumptions ... i have noticed this tendency - but that is only my observation. on the other hand, there is the way that this can inspire people to take up the path, a sort of expedient means - this is why i say "i wonder ..", i am not at all certain about this, just thoughts i have had.

jll

You dont know that either.

Even the Buddha was not naturally enlightened.
Some people due to their good karma have wholesome qualities.
But they still need to practice to reach nirvana.

You don't know that! There are different levels of enlightenment, may be reaching all the way requires practice but you can achieve some form of enlightenment without practice.
Some people achieve awakening or kundalini etc. with no meditation experience whatsoever.. It just happens....

Jeffrey

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."

I realize its difficult to see how that question drives people to madness but it is a problematic question you have to admit. If someone is a buddha, how does that feel? Should they be drawing you further to the path of awakening then it doesn't matter what you call them or if you understand what they are. You are just grateful.

Buddhism talks more about the path than the fruition. There is a chapter in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation about the buddha activities:




The body benefits sentient beings without conceptual thoughts
Likewise the speech and mind also benefit sentient beings without conceptual thoughts.
These three comprise the activity of a Buddha


Like Indra, the drum, the clouds, Brahma,
The sun, a wish fullfilling gem, space,
And the earth is the Tathagata


Just as the reflection of the form of the king of gods
Appears in the clear lapis lazuli ground,
So also does the reflection of the king of mighty sages' form
Appear in the clear ground which is beings' minds.


Through the power of the gods' former goodness,
The dharma drum in the divine realms,
Without effort, location, mental form, or concept,
Exhorts all the uncaring gods over and over again with its throbs
Of "impermanence", "suffering", "no-self", and "peace".



Like the all pervading Dharmakaya is without effort and so on,
Yet his Buddhaspeech permeates all beings without exception,
Teaching the noble doctrine to those of good fortune.


The rainy season't clouds continually and effortlessly
Downpour vast amounts of water onto the earth
And are the cause for good and bountiful crops

Likewise clouds of compassion, without any conceptualization,
Rain down the waters of the Victor's noble teachings
And cause the harvests of virtue for sentient beings.



Without effort and without leaving the Brahma heaven,
Brahma, king of the gods, can be seen in all the gods realms.
Similarly, without ever departing from the Dharmakaya, the great Victor
Effortlessly manifests his emanations in any sphere, to the fortunate


T

zenmyste

So can one be a bodhisattva without being into buddhism!!!

Is it something they *just are*???

thickpaper

Is it something they *just are*???

Or just become? Aint we all normal?

zenmyste

We are all normal yes!!! I meant can one become enlightened without walking the buddhist path???

aMatt

Buddhism isn't goverened by group membership. Its not like you get a decoder ring and a tinfoil hat. If you live by certain moral standards, observe your mind, and breathe at least a few times a day, you could be walking the path. Being a "buddhist" is optional.

pegembara

I know some people who *are* exactly what buddha preached to become, but they are not actually buddhist nor do they practice any religion.

My grandad who died at 90 last year. was very buddhist like. He actually always reminded me of a Buddhist enlightened master or something lol. Nothing ever got to him. His words and stories he used to tell us to inspire us were very Zen/Buddhist/Stoic..

When our grandma died, he used to always smile and said we need to remember the good times, but keep our concentration on the here and now etc etc...Nothing ever fazed him. *NOTHING*

However he always said he didnt follow anything. Because all answers are within.
And ive always felt like he didnt *need* guidence like i do. I love reading buddhas teachings and think i ca benifit from them, But do you think some people just dont *need* buddhist help??

He was the most generous guy ever aswell. Gave gave gave, with nothing back. But he didnt *need* anything he used to say. As hes got it all within.

What are your thoughts on others being natually just enlightened. Understanding life without being on the spirtual path. Perhaps the spiritual path isnt for everyone is it?? maybe some dont need to walk down this road?

Thoughts????

The path to freedom is composed of living a life of virtue, attaining a mind that is still/peaceful and having the wisdom to realise that nothing should be clung to.

Your Grandad was indeed walking the path. The life that he led is an inspiration.

If you had read The Razor's Edge by W. Somerset Maugham, you will know what I mean.

compassionate_warrior

So can one be a bodhisattva without being into buddhism!!!
Is it something they *just are*???

We are all normal yes!!! I meant can one become enlightened without walking the buddhist path???

Bodhisattvas are enlightened already. And no, one doesn't have to be a Buddhist. Keep your eyes out for the hidden Bodhisattvas around you--they can turn up anywhere, in any form, ethnicity, class, and so forth. You have your grandfather's example to guide you.

Jeffrey

You can read about the ten bhumis (levels) of bodhisattvas which lead up to buddhahood.

ThailandTom

wisdom often comes with old age, there was a study done on old people who claim that they live totally in the moment a lot of the time and are happier for it. Your grandfather could well have been liberated, but from hearing a story over the net it is hard to know. I agree with 'person' though, being liberated is different from being very wise

MetaZenMan

Enlightenment is the direct experience of the absolute and undeniable Truth.
Being generous, at Peace, and present in the moment are all residual qualities of this experience but they are not the experience itself. As people approach death these qualities begin to shine forth stronger because one is approaching their source. In life there are also those who have remained connected to this source since birth, and therefore also exhibit these qualities. An enlightened master however,is someone who has gone beyond this world and themselves before their naturally appointed time, and despite any prexisting connection. They then return to the world because what they find is Perfect Love presiding over all existence as karmic law, and this Love demands that they share what they have found with those that are also Love, but as of yet are not aware.

Cinorjer

Your Grandpa sounds like he was a great person. I would like to have known him.

What you saw was the end result of someone making some choices in life, and being open to learning some valuable lessons. Getting old doesn't necessarily or even normally bring wisdom, believe me I know. Most people manage to stumble through life without learning a thing. Some, like your Grandpa, manage to make peace with the world and focus on what's important in life. My Grandma who raised me was like that. A lot of what I am today is what I learned from her example.

I suspect there's something else at work here, also. You're looking at your Grandpa through the eyes of love. Those see through appearances and social station and past history and expectations to the remarkable person in front of you. Wouldn't it be nice to see everyone that way?

kayte

@zenmyste- Thank you for sharing the spirit of your grandad with us. He certainly did sound like an enlightened, peaceful man. I admire many of the older generation. Their lifestyle did not have as many of the conveniences we have today, but they also didn't have as many frivolous distractions either. People had to mature and assume responsibilities as a younger age than we do now. That might be why many were satisfaction with a simpler life. It's not as austere as a monastic style of living, but one that did challenge a person's ingenuity and stoicism. Probably a good lesson for us all.