Sex

ClayTheScribe

I know Buddhism teaches getting rid of desire (or does it?) to obtain enlightenment. I'm a 26-year-old man and I have never had sex. On the one hand, I want to experience making love to someone, but on the other hand, I want to be free of that desire because it creates suffering. How should I approach it?

Talisman

You don't need sex to find happiness. In fact, renunciating sexual relations is necessary for attaining complete liberation. Remember that contact leads to sensation leads to desire leads to attachment leads to becoming. Since you have not had contact, possibly due to karma from previous lives, you should take it as an opportunity to strengthen your practice.

ClayTheScribe

It was on this site that I just saw a comment that a healthy sex drive is a good thing. You're saying it's not? What if I want to produce children someday?

Talisman

A healthy sex drive is a good thing for someone who wants to have kids. The key word is "wants." I want kids. My want for children is a sign of my delusion and a source of suffering. There's nothing inherently good or bad about sex. What you need to understand is that sex is sensual contact and leads to suffering.

ClayTheScribe

But how do you live in the modern world without wanting? I can see that being possible as a monk in Tibet, but living in the modern world you're bound to have attachment and desire. There has to be a way to deal with that rather than just going off to a cave to meditate for the rest of your life, right?

Mr_Serenity

@ClayTheScribe
Everyone on this site is different. Just as Buddhist teachings and psychology tend to be a bit different, depending on the teacher. So you will tend to get different responses and you just have to feel them out and see which ones vibe with you accordingly. Not everyone on this site is going to give you advice that fits your personality.

Everyone has a different sex drive. Some people crave it more than others. Wanting to have sex is a completely natural urge, there is nothing wrong with it. I would honestly say that celibacy might be more trouble some for most, just due the act of trying to hide natural urges in the closet. Hardcore repression is part of the recipe on how to make a monster.

I went 1 year without sex and I felt it was making me crazy and desperate. By the time I got what I wanted enough my energy completely changed, for the better. Women actually ask me out now, without me even putting moves on them.
So if you're 26 and you feel you really need it, you should go for it.

By all means it will probably change your outlook on life. For some people it's that important. Sex is not about having kids, most of the time now days it's just about pleasure and getting rid of instinctual urges. Birth control/condoms help against the risks of sex. So I say if you want it go for it.

Mountains

There is nothing inherently wrong (or right) about sex. The desire for sex is a basic animal instinct that we all share. Some have a stronger or lesser desire, but it's there is just about everyone. What happens is that we get stuck on the sensual pleasure and cling to it, and *that's* what creates the suffering. The sex itself doesn't create suffering. Attachments create suffering.

Can you live your life without sex? Absolutely. Is it "healthy"? That depends on your definition. Physically, there is no evidence that life-long celibacy causes any particular negative effects (or positive effects). Emotionally/mentally/spiritually is another story, and everyone will be different there.

You're at an age where, if you choose to, you should be experiencing sex. Nothing wrong with waiting, and there is no magic age, but it's a part of who we are as human beings, and I think everyone should experience it, whether they then choose to continue to do so or not. Don't knock it until you've tried it, that sort of thing.

The part that requires skill is, just like falling in love, to do it without forming the suffering-causing attachments. Easier said than done, which is why entire industries are built around both.

aMatt

On the one hand, I want to experience making love to someone, but on the other hand, I want to be free of that desire because it creates suffering. How should I approach it?

Which hand has more weight to it? Having sex or not having sex will both lead you in the right direction. You're approaching this mindfully, which is the key.

If you wish you could get into some of the reasons you're 26 and asking these questions. It might be easier to help if you describe more of the circumstamces surrounding yourself. Buddha taught monks to abstain and lay followers to practice mindful, loving sex.

So, where are you?

Talisman

But how do you live in the modern world without wanting? I can see that being possible as a monk in Tibet, but living in the modern world you're bound to have attachment and desire. There has to be a way to deal with that rather than just going off to a cave to meditate for the rest of your life, right?

The Buddha had to sacrifice his kingdom, his wealth, his power, his family, his wife and son, his house, his friends, his possessions, even his hair and clothes off his back. He went into homelessness. He devoted himself wholeheartedly to discovering the path to liberation, to lasting peace and happiness, to the unconditioned, the deathless, the cessation of all suffering. After achieving perfect enlightenment nirvana, he proclaimed the path to liberation to others. He basically said, do as I have done, and you will achieve what I have achieved.

The householders existence is filled with distractions, discomforts, attachments, hindrances, and burdens. It is like carrying a heavy weight. This is why the attianing of nirvana is called, laying down the burden.

You shouldn't be afraid to pursue the life you wish to lead, but don't try to force the teachings to match your lifestyle. Instead, try your best to live your life to match the teachings.

zen_world

But how do you live in the modern world without wanting? I can see that being possible as a monk in Tibet, but living in the modern world you're bound to have attachment and desire. There has to be a way to deal with that rather than just going off to a cave to meditate for the rest of your life, right?

I really don't think it is possible to get rid of strong desires without killing the ego/the self...Your selfish persona wants to be happy and you will find excuses to make him happy...
Don't question your needs for sex or other desires, let them be,but instead focus on your self-less-ness and once you realize the illusion, and learn to live with that illusion then your desires will gradually fade away naturally. You need practice and discipline tho. It won't happen on its own...

Dakini

There are many different answers to your question, Clay. The Buddha taught sex leads to attachment and thereby, suffering. But he also had teachings for householders with families, recognizing that some people would choose the householder life. So he had teachings about how to practice Buddhism as a householder. And he had householder disciples who did reach enlightenment, I've learned, here. There are also Buddhist traditions that say you don't need to reject desire, to the contrary, you can use desire as a launching pad for enlightenment. This is very controversial, as it is impossible for most people to engage desire to reach a point where they can go beyond desire and leave it behind. Most people who practice this are fooling themselves, I think, judging by their behavior. A few rare individuals pull it off.

You say you want to have the experience, but you say you want to be free of the desire. So...decide which is more important to you, you can't really do both. You're in an interesting position; if you really want to live the celibate life, you can. Relationships can be messy, you know; personalities don't always work well together, and drama happens. :P
Good luck, whatever you decide. : )

ClayTheScribe

@aMatt, there's a long answer there haha. The short of it is that since my puberty, I have had sexual desire and longing for a partner. When I was 16 I had a girlfriend, but it didn't work out, partly because of my clinical anxiety and depression which I have been suffering from since puberty. When I was 21, I got into drugs and alcohol and became an addict. I had at least two women who were interested in a relationship with me and I didn't pursue because I wasn't in the right place mentally, emotionally or spiritually. I didn't have the confidence or the self-esteem to realize it. And the hook-up thing never appealed to me. I see sex as an act of love and I wanted it to be with someone I cared about, not someone I met that night at a bar.

I kind of flirted with Buddhism, mainly through my CBT talk therapy, but never dived into it. Two years ago, I got sober. I've been basically applying mindfulness techniques as the core part of my recovery without considering myself a Buddhist until now. I feel now I am at the perfect place to embrace the dharma and see what fits for me. I have already started meditating almost daily, though very briefly, and have been reading books, articles and posts on the Buddhist way of life.

I also feel I'm at a point where I'm ready to date and I have been approaching women online and in person and actually engaging them in a meaningful way. I am a person filled with love. I would like to share it with others, including in a romantic way. I would like to have sex as a form of expression of love and to experience it. I think to live a celibate life would be very hard and cause me more suffering to have to get over. I guess what I would really like is to be more in control over my desires and not feel like they are leading me. Is that impossible or is wanting control over desires another symptom of the ego?

Thanks for all your responses, I find them helpful.

Dakini

Very sweet, Clay, and very frank and honest. I think it's important to realize for oneself, whether celibacy is do-able or not. In fact, I'm getting ready to start a thread on that topic. Too many people (talking about the Asian monastic tradition) get into it, can't hack it, and serious problems result. So it sounds like you're making the right choice for you. Just be careful not to rush into anything, and to assess people realistically, rather than projecting all your hopes and dreams onto someone, which is a natural tendency. Or rather than throwing caution to the wind and letting your desires lead you, as you say. But it sounds like you're being realistic and down-to-earth. Mindfulness, as aMatt, said, is key. Be mindful that letting your desires lead you can lead you into train wrecks. And can hurt other people. It sounds like you don't want to do that, so you're way ahead of some people.

It takes time to find a good personality fit. Give it time. Talk to women. Be friendly. Get to know people. Be patient with the process. It'll work out. Have faith that it'll work out in time.

ClayTheScribe

Thank you, Dakini. That is what I needed to hear. Patience is one of the biggest things I've been dealing with these past few months. I'm too impatient for my liking. I learned impatience is really a subtle form of anger, so I'm reading Anger by Thich Nhat Hanh and it's pretty helpful. I also know my impatience is triggered by my anxiety, which is tied into anger. I just have to try to be mindful of when I'm impatient or irritated, bring myself back to the present moment, calm down and just trust that things are going as they should.

aMatt

I guess what I would really like is to be more in control over my desires and not feel like they are leading me. Is that impossible or is wanting control over desires another symptom of the ego?

I appreciate the honesty and forthcoming attitude! Your response gave more insight into what might surrounding you.

If you find yourself staring at women's bodies lustfully, consider working with that seperately under "overcoming lust". If your observations of them are holistic, you're already well positioned for a profound and loving union.

It sounds like you want romantic, spiritual companionship. This desire is perhaps mixing with fear you have of addictions. I don't think you have too much to fear. You have been sober for 2 years, and that shows conviction and mindfulness. Trust yourself... you're desiring a relationship for the right reasons. If you feel the fear arise, just notice it, do some breathing and it will pass away.

ClayTheScribe

I'm actually bisexual and find myself staring at many people's bodies lustfully, some days more than others. It bothers me because then it's harder to maintain or initiate a more "holistic" as you say, relationship. What should I do to overcome lust?

Dakini

Clay, you're going to have an extra challenge, I see. The Buddhist rule of thumb about sex is to practice "ahimsa" as Gandhi called it, non-harming. If you want a loving, stable relationship with a woman, you'll have to be honest about being bi. It would be a rare woman who would agree to that. Just saying...

ClayTheScribe

Dakini, there's more open-minded women than you think, at least in my generation. And if she doesn't want to be with me because I'm bi, I don't want to be with a prejudiced or ignorant person anyway.

aMatt

Consider listening to Thanissaro Bhikkhu. He says it well in my opinion.

As we cultivate skillful concentration, we can observe the lust that arises as a pollutant, and instead of running with that pollutant across a woman's chest or man's six pack, we deal with it in the mind, abandon it, and feel delight in overcoming it. Then we see shapes and colors without mental defilement.

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/090607 Lust.mp3

aMatt

Clay, you're going to have an extra challenge, I see. The Buddhist rule of thumb about sex is to practice "ahimsa" as Gandhi called it, non-harming. If you want a loving, stable relationship with a woman, you'll have to be honest about being bi. It would be a rare woman who would agree to that. Just saying...

I think there is a false consideration that Clay is suggesting a non-monogamous relationship. Fidelity is typically what women want in a committed relationship, in my experience, rather than strict hetero tenacity.

And, according to the studies done by Kinsey, most humans are at various levels of bisexuality, with strong preferences but not a strict alliance.

Dakini

You're absolutely right, Clay, it's about finding the right match. And maybe times have changed, generation-wise, that would be helpful. But it's not so much about being bi, for women it's about monogamy, see? That's the thing. But maybe times have changed in that respect as well. I think there's someone for everyone, it's just a matter of finding that someone.

edit: your post just came in, aMatt. You're right, maybe I'm making a wrong assumption. Anyway, I think I've contributed all I can, I'll leave it to you and others. : )

Mountains

If you want a loving, stable relationship with a woman, you'll have to be honest about being bi. It would be a rare woman who would agree to that. Just saying...

I agree (about being honest). But also, I don't feel that labels help a lot, whether self-applied or not. I honestly feel there are very few people who, if they were really honest with themselves, are not at some point and to some degree attracted to members of both sexes. As aMatt noted, Kinsey studied this, as have many others. It took me a long time (a lot longer than you are old) to both come to that realization in myself and to begin to accept it.

I hope that if someday I am in a loving relationship with a woman that I can be honest about my feelings and that she will accept them for what they are. Sadly, it's much more acceptable for a woman to have bisexual feelings in western society than it is for men. One of our many double standards.

Talisman

@claythescribe

I'm bi, too. It took me a year and a half to come out to my girlfriend. I understand how it can be difficult dealing with sensual desire, especially when you have natural proclivities to enjoy sexual relations with both sexes. I don't really have any tips, my preferences bounce back and forth. I am practicing acceptance of both myself and the impermanence of my personal desires. They come and they go. Have patience and strength. If I was in your shoes, single, 26, and bi with no history of sexual relations, I would NOT pidgeonhole myself to seeking a relationship with a woman. Maybe you should try looking on the other side of the fence as well. (just my 2 cents)

ramble, ramble, ramble

ClayTheScribe

You are making a wrong assumption, just as I'm sure many people do about bisexuals. It's natural because bisexuals get left out of the gay-straight dialogue we have all too often. But assuming is making a judgment without all the facts, that is ignorance. I am trying to become less ignorant myself. I am not interested in having a relationship with a woman (or man) who makes assumptions about me out of ignorance. I have only ever wanted monogamy in my life, I am not the least bit polyamorous, nor do I have a desire to be. If I am with that person, I am with that person until the relationship has burned out or until one of us dies. If I explain that and still a woman does not wish to be with me, then it wasn't right and I will move on. I knew being myself, being openly bi, was going to be difficult when I came out, but not being myself is the hardest way.

Thanks for the link, @aMatt. I will have to listen to it when I get home from work.

ClayTheScribe

@Talisman, it is not that I'm not interested in having a relationship with a man. I am. However I am overweight by about 100 lbs. In the gay/bi community, most of the men I am attracted to of slender or somewhat medium build, will not be attracted to me. There may be some, but even then there's not a certainty we'd have chemistry. I am trying to be realistic. And at this point in my life I am more drawn to the females on an emotional and spiritual level. I am trying to lose weight, so maybe when I get to a place where I have a body that's more desirable I will attract more men, but so far I have not. And maybe the type of men I'm attracted to will change, but that's how it is for now.

To be honest, I am physically and sexually more attracted to men, just slightly, than women, but I'm emotionally more attracted to women. But honestly, either way I'd be happy, I just want someone to love I'm attracted to.

almer45

I think that if we allow that our sex urges take control of us then we decrease the opportunity to enlightment. This is true. But I also deem that if we have sex with love then sex urges are not so important as the love you have for someone. Then you are not attached to sex.

Everything can be an attachment,sex, eating or food for example, watching TV, playing football, listening to music... When have you got an attachment? When you can't be without them, when you decide not to do something and you feel a strong feeling that you can't stay without having them. Then you have got an attachment. But this doesn't mean you can taste the food you eat or have sex. The only idea is that it it shouldn't be the center of you life. What is the center of your life? Is it enlightment?

There are married buddhists monks and people who are buddhist who get marry and I don't think that this makes them be far from enlightment if their center of their lives is the nature of the mind or enlightment.

Vincenzi

craving...

GoTo 4 Noble Truths

SeaOfTranquility

I heard that the Dali Lama said that sex with no attachment would be like choosing a piece of dog shit over a chocolate ice cream cone.

Thought that was pretty funny.

Desire is ok. But when desire goes beyond desire to obsessive desire and craving we suffer. Through awareness and mindfulness we learn to see the difference and know when desire for sensual pleasures is becoming a hindrance.

NOTaGangsta

Nothing wrong with wanting to have sex. However, with the right practice, you will see how overrated it is compared to getting better Samadhi. Not to mention all it is are two skin bags carrying, urine, feaces, blood, pus and bacteria getting the respective fluids over and into eachother.

DhammaDhatu

My want for children is a sign of my delusion and a source of suffering.

The Buddha had to sacrifice his kingdom, his wealth, his power, his family, his wife and son, his house, his friends, his possessions, even his hair and clothes off his back.

...possibly due to karma from previous lives...

The delusions look like they are piling up, one on top of another

The Buddha (Prince Siddharta) sacrificed nothing. Be he gained enlightenment, he regarded all of the things you listed as unsatisfactory.

If fact, theoretically, he probably had to sacrifice his celibacy and force himself to have sex with his wife so he could bear a heir for his father so he could leave home. Please keep in mind, he named his son 'Rahula' (fetter; burden; chain).

Kind regards

Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search?

There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to birth...sorrow...defilement?

Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth...sorrow...defilement.

I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an unawakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement?

What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Nirvana?'

"So, at a later time, while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — and while my parents, unwilling, were crying with tears streaming down their faces — I shaved off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html

DhammaDhatu

I really don't think it is possible to get rid of strong desires without killing the ego/the self...Your selfish persona wants to be happy and you will find excuses to make him happy...

Ending desires is not really related to "killing" the ego/the self. "Self" does not create desires. Desires create the "self". For example, a baby feels hungry and the thought is created: "I am hungry".

Ending desires arises from seeing the unsatisfactoriness of things. For example, when you were a child, you desired little toy cars, toy soldiers, dolls & things but you no longer desire them anymore.

But how do you live in the modern world without wanting?

hi Clay

I would not get overly attached to higher Buddhism. For many monks, the monks life is difficult and they disrobe.

If you have strong sexual desires then the lay life i probably for you. Buddhism suggests to follow the five precepts and appraise what is a suitable partner is for yourself.

Kind regards

DD

Talisman

The delusions look like they are piling up, one on top of another

You have the ability to know the minds of others? To know whether one is deluded or not? Wow!
:bowdown:

DhammaDhatu

NOTaGangsta

Anyway, it doesn't take Buddhism to say the modern world is too obessessed with sex than the emotional and social aspect of getting into a relationship.

cosmicyogisattva

vajrayana is one of the most sacred teachings of the buddha. pure intimacy is different to lust.

zen_world

I really don't think it is possible to get rid of strong desires without killing the ego/the self...Your selfish persona wants to be happy and you will find excuses to make him happy...

Ending desires is not really related to "killing" the ego/the self. "Self" does not create desires. Desires create the "self". For example, a baby feels hungry and the thought is created: "I am hungry".

Ending desires arises from seeing the unsatisfactoriness of things. For example, when you were a child, you desired little toy cars, toy soldiers, dolls & things but you no longer desire them anymore.

The way I approach my desires is a little bit different than what you suggest. I found extremely hard to get rid of some of my desires. Then I directly attack the ego self. Once I realize there is nothign there and ego is an illusion, the desires become less and less powerful because there is no base, there is no ground that desires can stand. I realize desires have no place to stay within me. It is like trying to pour water into a tea pot that has a big hole underneath it. Eventually this relates to unsatisfactoriness but "loosening the ego" is the way to make that happen. At least, that is my experience and it is successful so far.

Dakini

I heard that the Dali Lama said that sex with no attachment would be like choosing a piece of dog shit over a chocolate ice cream cone.

I'd like to see the source of that quote. Tantric practice is all about sex without attachment.

DhammaDhatu

why would one have sex without attachment?

please note: seeking pleasure is an attachment

DhammaDhatu

The way I approach my desires is a little bit different than what you suggest. I found extremely hard to get rid of some of my desires. Then I directly attack the ego self.

Sure...but what you said does not change what i said. Even though you may attack the ego, it is not primarily the ego that causes desire to arise. Eg. the desire arising from hunger is not caused by the ego. Buddha taught craving leads to (ego) becoming (rather than becoming leads to craving).

zen_world

what are you doing? playing the top dog lap dog game? You like to beat me...
Very Buddhist of you:)

You quoting my own phrase, that is only another proof to what I just said earlier. But you are not getting it, so I will explain again:

The way I cope with desires is by realizing the illusion of the ego.
I don't focus on specific desires and their unsatisfactoriness.
In the above quote I mentioned that sometimes I go out and have some fun and realize also that the entertainment is also empty, unsatifactory, BUT THIS IS NOT the way I cope with desires...you got that?

DhammaDhatu

Such a reply is obviously not free from ego. I was/am merely describing how psychology works :wow:

Apart from that, it appears you are saying you practise "cure" rather than "prevention" :wtf:

zen_world

Such a reply is obviously not free from ego. I was/am merely describing how psychology works :wow:

Apart from that, it appears you are saying you practise "cure" rather than "prevention" :wtf:

Absoulately not free from ego...my ego has its moments, and this is one of them...lol...

yes it is the cure...isn't Buddhism is all about killing that ego...thats what I am attempting to do...but I have teachers like you showing me I have a long way to go...you pushed my strings for a moment. But its all a game, its all good!

DhammaDhatu

...my ego...

sounds like double attachment there..."my ego"... :scratch:

...but I have teachers like you showing me I have a long way to go...you pushed my strings for a moment. But its all a game, its all good!

yes...it is all good...all under the metta of the Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha

aMatt

why would one have sex without attachment?

please note: seeking pleasure is an attachment

Can one desire something wholesome without it being an attachment?

DhammaDhatu

Can one desire something wholesome without it being an attachment?

if by 'desire', you mean 'right intention', sure, i suppose so :wtf:

aMatt

if by 'desire', you mean 'right intention', sure, i suppose so :wtf:

Can one experience hunger without ego? Said differently, can we notice hunger and respond with right intention?

DhammaDhatu

I suppose...but can tantric sex be compared to biological hunger for physical food?

aMatt

Not to biological hunger, but to eating. Eating is pleasurable for the body, as it responds to the intake of nutrients. Tantra is pleasurable for the body as it lets go of self reference and surrenders with trust into its partner.

I wonder if we could describe our body's desire for enlightenment akin to hunger... a natural impetus arising from its noticing a lack?

DhammaDhatu

...it lets go of self reference and surrenders with trust into its partner...

this sounds very different to the rather detached "all about sex without attachment"... :skeptic:

still, it could be a recipe for pain if the surrendor is not trustworthy... :-/

Dazzle

Nobody actually gets taught or practices something called 'Buddhist tantric sex' anyway - except in their imaginations. It was something that featured in Indian texts a very long time ago in connection with the Indian siddha tradition.
.

aMatt

...it lets go of self reference and surrenders with trust into its partner...

this sounds very different to the rather detached "all about sex without attachment"... :skeptic:

How so? Because it results in pleasure? Doesn't single pointed concentration also result in pleasure? The motivation for cultivating the concentration is not the pleasure.

Perhaps at first, meditation is approached for "pleasurable feelings", but with practice that dissolves. Tantra is often approached at first for pleasurable feelings, but with practice that dissolves. Sexual pleasure is unsatisfying compared to the peaceful union that arises along side of it. Not that I claim mastery... but this is the teaching and the intent, and I wonder if it can be regarded as right intent.