What does it mean when a Lama slaps your face?

FoibleFull

A soft slap to the left side of the face?
Seems to me I once heard someone talking about this, but it was years ago and I didn't pay much attention.

caz

If one has guru devotion to a lama of perfect conduct should such a thing that seems out of character occur a good student recognises this as a form of purification, Yamantaka's wrathful purification. By forcing serious negative karma to rise in the form of something less destructive to a students well being.

Cloud

I've heard about this happening in Zen. Most people stuck in their individual lives would take offense and be outraged at a slap in the face, but really it's no lasting injury and is over almost as fast as it happens. It's like shouting in someone's ear, you're breaking them out of their wrong thoughts and bringing them back to the moment.

Dakini

It's hard to say without more information. But in view that it was a "soft" slap, we can only assume it was meant to get your attention for a reason only you can divine, based on the circumstances of the situation. Still, I'd say it's very unusual, unless you were in a one-on-one study situation with your lama, perhaps studying Highest Yoga Tantra, where guru yoga is appropriate. If you weren't in that context, ask yourself if there was anything in the situation you were in that could have motivated the lama to do that?

Mountains

For a second there I thought this was leading up to a koan - what is the sound of one hand slapping?

Seriously, I have no idea what it means!

Dazzle

Never heard of this happening at any of the Tibetan Buddhist centres I used to attend, nor did I ever hear anything from any of the other students about slappings.

There's an old story about the Indian siddha Tilopa hitting his student Naropa on the head with a shoe - and him becoming realised as a result, but the events in some of those teaching stories are symbolic rather than literal.

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Zayl

I'd slap them back, only as hard as they slapped me. Just trying to help them remember the lesson they are trying to teach me. If it's a full-on backhand though I see that as a formal challenge, haha.

Cloud

@Zayl, Imagine a teacher slapping you, for whatever reason they know and you do not. If you slapped them back, it would just show ego taking offense and seeking retribution. I don't think that would be good at all. It might even put you in the dog house, however that goes. A student is still a student until they have mastered control of their thoughts, speech and actions in full.

Of course, like everyone else I've never heard of this except in Zen. As a Zen student you have to accept "odd" as a matter of course. Zen is anything but conventional, it cuts out our expectations and customs/traditions and gets to the heart of an empty reality.

dharma

This is not something the Buddha would do to teach any of his disciple. I would run away and never turn back if any of his disciple try to use this " technique" on me.

Cloud

I don't think it's a technique, @dharma. It's just something that has been remarked to have happened when a Zen master is teaching a student. It may not even be that common.

dharma

I heard of someone using that as a method to enlighten a person. I have no idea who used that. It is not the kind of lesson for me. I prefer someone non-violent like the Buddha.

Spaceless

I heard of someone using that as a method to enlighten a person. I have no idea who used that. It is not the kind of lesson for me. I prefer someone non-violent like the Buddha.

Parents enlightening their kid sort of ard 1-5 years old. In was commonly noted in zen practice but not slapping, and the master was enlightened because he would know for sure the opportune moment. And it was certain for the intended result of enlightenment, but rarely used. Never heard of such technique performed by 6th Master Zen patriarch who had enlightened many others. In chinese song from a "mental" patient of lover having this song relic, "slapping means love, scolding means adoring", and there it goes, many parts of the world were having love & adoring gesture - riot/protest.

Jeffrey

I have only been slapped one time and I was very bad at the time. I think I learned something from it. I learned karma that my actions had consequences on those around me and could overwhelm them.

Therefore I am not an expert on slapping.

footiam

I'd consider another lama.

Dakini

I was told of a lama who hit students hard on the head if he thought they weren't bowing down low enough. This is not "skillful means", though. On the contrary, it's the kind of thing that turns people off to Buddhism, or to a particular school of Buddhism (or a particular teacher, at least).

GuyC

This is not something the Buddha would do to teach any of his disciple. I would run away and never turn back if any of his disciple try to use this " technique" on me.

Agreed. Wrong Action.

If the Buddha wouldn't have done it, I don't think we can really justify it as "skilful means".

Daozen

Maybe you have a bug on your face.

Jeffrey

Can we place this in a context? Is there a specific lama who has slapped a specific person? Or is this just mental diarrhea?

Dakini

Sometimes people don't name names because libel can be an issue. In Foiblefull's case, there appears to be a specific lama who has slapped a specific person--Foiblefull. I already hinted about getting more information, so if it hasn't been forthcoming, it must be because Foiblefull has his reasons for not clarifying. Let's respect his (or her) decision.

NOTaGangsta

Getting slapped by a real teacher is a very good thing indeed! Awakened teachers will not slap the wrong person.

GuyC

Awakened teachers will not slap the wrong person.

This is absolutely true, because Awakened teachers will not slap anyone! (and not just because there is no one to slap; anatta, etc.)

Cinorjer

A soft slap to the left side of the face?
Seems to me I once heard someone talking about this, but it was years ago and I didn't pay much attention.

It means you're standing too close to the wrong Lama.

Really, you'd have to ask the Lama why. It could mean anything or nothing. There is no tradition of a soft slap to the face in any school of Buddhism I'm aware of.

Jeffrey

Dakini, I disagree. She should file charges with the police department. I am not kidding. Its not libel if it is true.

Jeffrey

Don't be in fear if you don't have the factual information regarding libel:


http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/libel-and-slander

LIBEL AND SLANDER occur when a person or entity communicates false information that damages the reputation of another person or entity. Slander occurs when the false and defamatory communication is spoken and heard. Libel occurs when the false and defamatory communication is written and seen. The laws governing libel and slander, which are collectively known as DEFAMATION, are identical.

[B]A plaintiff who wishes to sue an individual or entity for libel or slander has the burden of proving four claims[/B] to a court: First, the plaintiff must show that the DEFENDANT communicated a defamatory statement. Second, the plaintiff must show that the statement was published or communicated to at least one other person besides the plaintiff. Third, the plaintiff must show that the communication was about the plaintiff and that another party receiving the communication could identify the plaintiff as the subject of the defamatory message. Fourth, the plaintiff must show that the communication injured the plaintiff's reputation.

There are four general defenses to slander and libel. Truth is an absolute defense. Consent by the plaintiff for the publication of the defamatory statement is a defense. Accidental publication of the statement is a defense. Finally, the statements of certain defendants in certain circumstances, such as lawyers, judges, jurors, and witnesses, are protected from defamation for PUBLIC POLICY reasons. This type of protection is known as privilege.

Jeffrey

Lamas need to make sure their methods are coherent with the parent societies laws. Or face the consequences.

FoibleFull

Thank you all ... yes, it was a most-gentle slap.

I had just finished participating in a guru puja led by this lama, was about to present the customary katah scarf and offering afterwards. He asked me how I was, and when I said I was fine, he smiled at me and gave me that slap.

However ... I had gotten mad at my husband before leaving the house to attend the puja. I thought I had gotten over my anger, but maybe the lama didn't think so.

I know this much ... it did not result in instant enlightenment. Confusion, yes ... enlightenment, no.

Dakini

I read somewhere recently that there's a tradition in Zen and TB to hit the student in some way to snap them out of their thought-absorption and in that instant, the student can realize enlightenment. I don't know to what extent this is still practiced in either tradition. But it's interesting to find out Foiblefull is female. My observation is that the lamas can be verbally abusive or deliberately make statements to embarrass women students, and commit other indignities toward female students. I've never seen anything like that in the way the lamas relate to male students.

Jeffrey, I disagree; truth is not a defense in libel cases. And putting something up on a public forum certainly satisfies the requirement that the defendant is publicizing the libel. Every additional hit to a website counts as an additional libel. Shamar Rimpoche posted on his website that "lama" Ole Nydahl was misusing the Tantric teachings he'd received from the 16th Dalai Lama, and was using his students for sex (which was true). Nydahl threatened him with libel, so Shamar had to remove that comment and amend his post, even though he posted nothing untrue. People think the fact that accusations are true will protect them against libel suits, but it won't. But thank you very much for the post. I'm going to look into this some more.

Jeffrey

Dakini, did you read my internet source? Truth IS a defense. In fact it is described as an 'absolute' defenese.

Cloud

I don't think too much offense should be taken. If they're an accomplished teacher, and you respect them, simply think on it. It's nowhere near "abuse"; a slap is over almost as fast as it happens, especially a light slap. People who would encourage getting the law into it aren't thinking in terms of realizing ultimate reality and letting go of our attachments and preconceptions.

We've really gone downhill as a society when we view temporary pain as highly offensive and to be punished, and aren't keeping in mind the highly unorthodox approach to life that Buddhism (Buddhist sanghas at least) offers as opposed to our traditional upbringing. Broken bones, actual abuse, things that are bad enough to require medical attention... would be another beast altogether.

Think of the teacher as the parent and you're the child. They're not going to abuse you, but they will do what they think is necessary to awaken your mind. You can leave anytime you want to... but should also respect that they are a teacher for a reason. That's my two cents.

Dakini

I read that, Jeffrey, and it doesn't jibe with what I've been told by lawyers about libel, which is why I said I was going to look into it some more. I'm glad you posted this, it's worth looking into and really sorting out. It's a very important point. I'l get back to you. Posting the truth didn't help Shamar, but maybe he was simply afraid of a lawsuit and the hassle. I want to get more expert opinions.

Dakini

Cloud, I think you have a point, but I wouldn't put it in terms of parent and child. This is all too common with students who have had abusive parents, and come to the sangha hoping the lama will be the kind, loving parent they never had. And they are very vulnerable to abuse or exploitation by the teacher. I'm definitely not looking for a surrogate parent when I go to a sangha. I'm looking for a spiritually knowledgeable and ethical purveyor of the teachings (or "religion") who walks his talk and practices what he preaches. The parent-child analogy has its pitfalls. I think it's healthier to have a mature view of our teacher rather than a childlike one.

Cloud

Well whatever metaphor/analogy works. They're the ones who know, and we go to them asking that they instruct us in whatever way will allow us to know as well. We have to take some things in stride as beyond our understanding, as their understanding is beyond us.

Dakini

This discussion has raised some interesting points. Some members see using the Buddha's behavior as the standard of what is acceptable between teacher and disciple. Others say that certain traditions operate on a different basis, are unconventional, and if we choose to join such a tradition, we accept what comes with the package. Should all traditions be held to the standard of the Buddha's behavior? ...just asking. That's the question that pops out after reviewing the comments on the thread.

Dazzle

There's absolutely no reason for a teacher to touch a student at all. As a schoolteacher I have never touched any of the students I've taught and have maintained excellent relationships with most of them - why should it be any different for a Dharma teacher?
Nor, as I mentioned before, have I heard offline of anyone being slapped in student-teacher scenarios in any Buddhist tradition.

Dazzle

In the Theravada tradition that I'm familiar with offline, teachers are also ordained monks. Theravadin monks aren't allowed to touch women, or be alone with them unless there is a chaperone present.

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Jeffrey

Cloud I think thats bullshit. Light slap ok. Its the persons choice to stay or go. But if the slap is heavy, then that is called assault and battery.

Its not a buddhist concept, assault and battery, its a legal term. I am speaking as a united states person I don't know the customs of other places.

WE create abuse by having a concept of justifying it. For any reason. To that affect we are also responsible for abuse of children and women by husbands because when we create a culture where abuse is ok people get that message and the cycle continues.

FoibleFull

I am very amused to see where people's minds have taken them.
The word "soft" seems to have been ignored in favor of the word "slap". We're bringing in abuse, assault, and misogynist concepts.

If there had been a mosquito on my face at the time, it wouldn't have been injured, let alone killed. Where is everyone's heads?

Jeffrey

FoibleFull, we have diverged in part to discussing the topic in general. Sorry for hijacking your thread.

In my cultural expectation however I don't really want anyone to touch me unless I invite them somehow.

Dazzle

I am very amused to see where people's minds have taken them.
The word "soft" seems to have been ignored in favor of the word "slap". We're bringing in abuse, assault, and misogynist concepts.

If there had been a mosquito on my face at the time, it wouldn't have been injured, let alone killed. Where is everyone's heads?

Might it have been better described as simply a pat on the cheek, rather than a "soft slap," then ?

NOTaGangsta

Awakened teachers will not slap the wrong person.

This is absolutely true, because Awakened teachers will not slap anyone! (and not just because there is no one to slap; anatta, etc.)

Sound like u need sum toughen up homes!!! Know wat im sayin?

GuyC

Sound like u need sum toughen up homes!!! Know wat im sayin?

Nope!

tjampel

This is not something the Buddha would do to teach any of his disciple. I would run away and never turn back if any of his disciple try to use this " technique" on me.

I disagree. If the Buddha intuited that forceful action would result in someone's enlightenment why would he hesitate to do this? I'd beg for such a slap if it moved me one micron closer to the achievement of my spiritual goal.

Vincenzi

it means that the lama has unresolved ego issues.

GuyC

Hi TJ,

This is not something the Buddha would do to teach any of his disciple. I would run away and never turn back if any of his disciple try to use this " technique" on me.

I disagree. If the Buddha intuited that forceful action would result in someone's enlightenment why would he hesitate to do this? I'd beg for such a slap if it moved me one micron closer to the achievement of my spiritual goal..

Can you provide just one example of the Buddha actually using force in the Pali Suttas?

Metta,

Guy

dorje

The light slap on the face could be more accurately described as a light tap on the cheeks. A sign of affection among Asian cultures.

Dakini

lol ! Nothing like input from an informed source to put a whole new perspective on the OP and the entire thread! Ignorant Westerners.... :grumble: wow--is this embarrassing, or what! Thank you, dorje. (D shuffles off, sheepishly....)

Vincenzi

The light slap on the face could be more accurately described as a light tap on the cheeks. A sign of affection among Asian cultures.

it means that the lama has unresolved trishna issues.

FoibleFull

Just got a reply from someone I know (about 1500 miles away) who has decades of experience with Tibetan Buddhism and with many many different lamas.
She says it is unusual to get this from a teacher. And that the left side of the face is thought to be directly connected to the heart center, and the slap (okay guys .. "light tap") cleans out the heart center. This could make sense, seeing as I have gotten angry at my husband earlier that morning (which is not usual for me). She says when it is given, it is always give to the left side of the face. She also said that it is very unusual for a lama to ask someone, on meeting them, how they are.

I have no idea if this is actually what happens. Just relaying information I received.

Cloud

Perhaps the lama recognized in your speech or body language that you were holding anger, and your reply that you were fine was obviously just for face value (we rarely answer "I'm angry" etc.), and so they did the slap/tap thing. Maybe? I dunno.

FoibleFull

Yeah, Cloud, I suspect it falls under that category. As I told my husband later, I probably should have said, "Thanks. I needed that."

Thao

Awakened teachers will not slap the wrong person.

This is absolutely true, because Awakened teachers will not slap anyone! (and not just because there is no one to slap; anatta, etc.)

I love your comment here GuyC!!!