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For a better understanding of why conservative American Christians think they way they do, I recommend reading Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War by Joe Bageant. Plus it's just a damn good read.
Back to the original post, I think that "fuck it" may be a pretty good way of getting attention and making some money into the bargain, but it is not a way that dovetails very well with spiritual endeavor. It's like atheists who make a life-long hobby of not-believing and in so doing posit yet another belief.
Spiritual endeavor is not dismissive, in my opinion, any more than it deserves the smarmy descriptive "inclusive." Rather, it is a personal and intimate exploration and actualization of what is.
Clearly, each of us has a reaction of some kind to Fuck it. Since it's an expression, it carries a tone. That's why we use it, to express an orientation to whatever it is that we're saying "Fuck it" about. My experience of that tone is of ego being abruptly and strongly dismissive of something, or a tone of despair and giving up.
Neither of these orientations seems particularly useful in the context of spiritual efforts. Letting go is meticulous, conscious, exacting work.
Think about it, The conservatives preaches family values, community spirit, being charitable, have social responsibility and work hard. They are all GOOD moral ideas! It is only because they are heavily contaminated by hatred and arrogance, that their behaviour makes some of these ideals seem fake and bad.
Think about about what the opposing team is teaching? Be more free to do... "what"?
Now which team's teaching is more enjoyable and easier to accept? Be a puritan and worry about moral consequences. Or alternatively, be "yourself", "fuck the system", "rock out" "express yourself", enjoy substances, try everything!
Now let go, go with the flow of Samsara, satisfy all the craving of your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. Isn't this alot more easier to accept and enjoy?
Now there is a old saying that goes "it takes 10 years to be a good person, but it takes a few hours to become a bad person."
I love how a topic on a more blunt way of "letting go" gets hijacked and tuned into a misguided attempt to steer the topic into politics. But if we're playing that game I have found more morality in a heroin addict living on the streets than in all the "socially responsible" conservatives who presume to dictate morality to everyone else.
I ordered the book. It's going to arrive on saturday. I'll have some kind of review on here.
And to all this political mumbo jumbo: who cares about "moral codes". We need only look at the fruit of our karma to see whether we have acted correctly. Is this drug addict content with all things? Is the Conservative Christian content with all things?
All things are equal whether I say "fuck it" or use the phrase posted earlier "good enough" it is our intention and volition that truely matter. But we must also consider kamma, even if our intention is good what consequences do our words have for others?
All things are equal whether I say "fuck it" or use the phrase posted earlier "good enough" it is our intention and volition that truely matter. But we must also consider kamma, even if our intention is good what consequences do our words have for others?
Thank you. I am concerned with the quality of discourse on this forum, and language trends can make or break any forum.
However, the owner of the forum has spoken, and he has the ultimate say about forum rules.
All things are equal whether I say "fuck it" or use the phrase posted earlier "good enough" it is our intention and volition that truely matter. But we must also consider kamma, even if our intention is good what consequences do our words have for others?
Thank you. I am concerned with the quality of discourse on this forum, and language trends can make or break any forum.
However, the owner of the forum has spoken, and he has the ultimate say about forum rules.
And then there is the maha-humorist George Carlin with a little perspective:
And then there is the maha-humorist George Carlin with a little perspective:
Yes, that was a brilliant routine. Of course, on the other hand, Richard Pryor stopped using the N word late in his career because the more he used it, the more acceptable it became in a wider circle.
Perhaps I'm a bit oversensitive to the topic because I did some course work in linguistics.
vinylyn thats interesting about Richard Pryor. i think you were earlier pointing out that the vibe of swear words can mess a forum up. for example if I were to say *$^5 Jeffrey! Or eff so and so and so and so that is not peaceful speach.
at the same time we can also flame without getting caught using 'nice' speach that veils a 'flame' war. I recall that we used to have an emoticon that was 'prapancha'.. I asked that that emoticon be changed to 'bullshit' because that was really what people were saying when they said 'prapancha'.
vinylyn thats interesting about Richard Pryor. i think you were earlier pointing out that the vibe of swear words can mess a forum up. for example if I were to say *$^5 Jeffrey! Or eff so and so and so and so that is not peaceful speach.
at the same time we can also flame without getting caught using 'nice' speach that veils a 'flame' war. I recall that we used to have an emoticon that was 'prapancha'.. I asked that that emoticon be changed to 'bullshit' because that was really what people were saying when they said 'prapancha'.
I agree, Jeffrey. There's a relatively new poster around who has an edge to almost every post. Hopefully, over time he/she will realize that we're generally a little more peaceful here. But, most of us can get caught up in some of the discussions, and go over the line...as I have on occasion.
Ahh, I am the parent of teens and a young adult. I used to be so free about language but I also had my 'time and place' very clear such as not saying curse words in front of my parents. So this has nothing to do with what anyone else has said except that my house became a place of very hurtful and unskilled speech. I decided that they had to say 'fuzzy bunny' instead of the f word. You just can't get the same emotion from fuzzy bunny so it is a little nicer here. Plus they are not allowed to call each other b-**, it got very negative.
A perfect way for Westerners to understand the Eastern idea of giving up, letting go, reminding oneself that things aren't that important, that everything's impermanent, that it's not worth getting worked up over. Say "fuck it"
Oh good one @Brian, you can't take this site having real life racoons getting killed pictures - but you promote a Fuck it thread, promoting this as Eastern let go and an attitude to dealing with the world's problems/realities?
Stupid, anyone? Or just dumbing down so called Buddhists? So sad.
@Brain@MindGate I just to know why its ok to sensationalize Buddhist philosophy by using profanities but its not ok to use sensationalized pictures to highlight animal cruelty (if we are referring to the Raccoon dogs skinned alive thread).
If you want people to
"understand the Eastern idea of giving up, letting go, reminding oneself that things aren't that important, that everything's impermanent, that it's not worth getting worked up over"
Then I am sure most mature adults would prefer it if you would just say that exact sentence to them, then I am sure that the person would understand what you mean, there is no need to condense this into a sensationalist profanity to get this point across. Thats my opinion anyway for what its worth.
It's a book. Not just something he made up. There is a time and place for saying fuck it. Also, I don't think anyone has promoted going around tossing the f word here and there. You're just supposed to say fuck it to yourself. Fuck it has that slap in the face effect. So much so that it snaps you out of the current moment. Instantaneous letting-go.
Profanity (and irreverence) is no stranger to Buddhism.
Guess that depends on where you experienced Buddhism. In my travels throughout Thailand both visiting and living there, what I saw in the hundreds of temples I visited was reverence and polite language amongst the monks and laity.
Then something just snapped. Something inside of me. I didn’t care anymore. I didn’t care about being better than Kakarot. I didn’t care about being a Super Saiyan. I didn’t care if I lived. I didn’t care about anything. And then it happened… That is how I became a Super Saiyan. The sleeper has awakened. – Prince Vegeta, from Dragon Ball Z
A perfect way for Westerners to understand the Eastern idea of giving up, letting go, reminding oneself that things aren't that important, that everything's impermanent, that it's not worth getting worked up over. Say "fuck it"
Oh good one @Brian, you can't take this site having real life racoons getting killed pictures - but you promote a Fuck it thread, promoting this as Eastern let go and an attitude to dealing with the world's problems/realities?
Stupid, anyone? Or just dumbing down so called Buddhists? So sad.
Really? You guys don't see the difference between pictures of raccoons being killed and the phrase "fuck it." ...?
It was a post linking to the article, with requisite warnings. It was a link, Mindgate. It's also a reality.
David Attenborough (BBC UK) makes documentaries, in one of them he shows a situation where chimpanzees ripped a monkey apart and ate it. He said he was merely showing the audience the facts.
The fact that a so called Buddhist forum cannot sustain pictures or stories that can cause reeling is really sad.
Life is hard sometimes and if we as Buddhists cannot open our eyes and face reality, how can we address the wider context of this world? Which is life itself and suffering. But NOT only the suffering of ourself, oneself, that is an INTERIM step - it is not a final step in our journey.
No, I am sorry, people are getting killed, raccoon dogs are skinned alive for profit. And CONSUMERS should know this so you will never purchase again another faux fur product in this world. Voters and individuals should know this so they can take a more active role to shape the future of the world.
If as Buddhists you can't stand to see blood, well perhaps you can just - after all, fuck it.
It's a koan actually, but these are meant for deep inquiry and practice with a genuine, qualified teacher. Unfortunately, koans are some of the most misrelayed stories and get bandied around like jokes.
Also, out of the tens of thousands of millions of koans, very few if any like this refer to these.
It's a book. Not just something he made up. There is a time and place for saying fuck it. Also, I don't think anyone has promoted going around tossing the f word here and there. You're just supposed to say fuck it to yourself. Fuck it has that slap in the face effect. So much so that it snaps you out of the current moment. Instantaneous letting-go.
Ahh good point, the age of instant returns. It's an interesting point you make though, Yishai. And I think it highlights the very subtleties of our practice - it is so easy to misunderstand the finer points because the devil, as they say, is truly in the detail. On paper letting go sounds too easy, and 'fuck it' sounds like one method, but I think the Buddhist practice of letting go is different.
But I am no expert and so defer to your collective wisdoms.
eh it's really not worth bringing this to the conversation. we cannot say the buddha said this or that.
though zen arises from aftermarket buddhas. is there hierarchy amongst the buddha crowd?
lol
I am a Buddhist, I think its kinda important to clarify what Buddha said and what he did not say. In this instance I think we can pretty much rule out that Buddha said "The Buddha is a shit stick"
It's a koan actually, but these are meant for deep inquiry and practice with a genuine, qualified teacher. Unfortunately, koans are some of the most misrelayed stories and get bandied around like jokes.
Exactly, that's my point. Just like "Fuck it," obviously there is a context.
In Zen there is pissing next to the altar, chopping up wooden Buddha statues for firewood, talk of killing the Buddha, and the old shit stick koan is mentioned quite often by various Zen teachers (I don't mean just modern teachers), and there are a few more instances of old Zen teachers doing or saying some rather outlandish sounding things, but they all have a context (likely very specific to the student the Zen master was teaching in that particular situation).
There's no rulebook that says Buddhism should be all prim and proper.
We are not talking about prim and proper here although I suspect there may be some cross purposes in these discussions. Hence the misunderstanding.
The attitude of F it though does not seem in sync with Buddhist practice despite how kool and katchy it sounds - let alone quoting teachers like Luang Por Chah etc
But here is a story, since many seem enarmoured with stories here:
The morning after Philip Kapleau and Professor Phillips arrived at Ryutakuji Monastery they were given a tour of the place by Abbot Soen Nakagawa. Both Americans had been heavily influenced by tales of ancient Chinese masters who'd destroyed sacred texts, and even images of the Buddha, in order to free themselves from attachment to anything. They were thus surprised and disturbed to find themselves being led into a ceremonial hall, where the Roshi invited them to pay respects to a statue of the temple's founder, Hakuin Zenji, by bowing and offering incense.
On seeing Nakagawa bow before the image, Phillips couldn't contain himself, and burst out: "The old Chinese masters burned or spit on Buddha statues! Why do you bow down before them?"
"If you want to spit, you spit," replied the Roshi. "I prefer to bow."
From: One Bird One Stone: 108 American Zen Stories by Sean Murphy
Both Americans had been heavily influenced by tales of ancient Chinese masters who'd destroyed sacred texts, and even images of the Buddha, in order to free themselves from attachment to anything.
...
On seeing Nakagawa bow before the image, Phillips couldn't contain himself, and burst out: "The old Chinese masters burned or spit on Buddha statues! Why do you bow down before them?"
"If you want to spit, you spit," replied the Roshi. "I prefer to bow."
From: One Bird One Stone: 108 American Zen Stories by Sean Murphy
And yes, PS I don't think it's about being prim and proper. We can cuss sometimes but I also favour respect and politeness also when the occassion calls for it. Which to my mind, is often.
A monk once asked Ummon, "What is the Buddha?" Ummon answered thus: "A dried shit-stick!" (Note: A 'dry shit stick' was the medieval equivalent of toilet paper. Hence Yunmen's reply is sometimes translated as "Something to wipe your arse on!"
Comments
Spiritual endeavor is not dismissive, in my opinion, any more than it deserves the smarmy descriptive "inclusive." Rather, it is a personal and intimate exploration and actualization of what is.
"Fuck it?" Sure.
"Don't fuck it?" Sure.
But the central question is, NOW WHAT?
Neither of these orientations seems particularly useful in the context of spiritual efforts. Letting go is meticulous, conscious, exacting work.
And to all this political mumbo jumbo: who cares about "moral codes". We need only look at the fruit of our karma to see whether we have acted correctly. Is this drug addict content with all things? Is the Conservative Christian content with all things?
Do they suffer? Of course they do.
However, the owner of the forum has spoken, and he has the ultimate say about forum rules.
It might be good and it might be bad. Maybe effort is worthwhile?
I think its when you are putting too much pressure on yourself and you just relax and do it.
Of course, on the other hand, Richard Pryor stopped using the N word late in his career because the more he used it, the more acceptable it became in a wider circle.
Perhaps I'm a bit oversensitive to the topic because I did some course work in linguistics.
at the same time we can also flame without getting caught using 'nice' speach that veils a 'flame' war. I recall that we used to have an emoticon that was 'prapancha'.. I asked that that emoticon be changed to 'bullshit' because that was really what people were saying when they said 'prapancha'.
Emptiness
Sunnatha
Okay my complete side notes
Stupid, anyone? Or just dumbing down so called Buddhists? So sad.
_/\_
If you want people to
"understand the Eastern idea of giving up, letting go, reminding oneself that things aren't that important, that everything's impermanent, that it's not worth getting worked up over"
Then I am sure most mature adults would prefer it if you would just say that exact sentence to them, then I am sure that the person would understand what you mean, there is no need to condense this into a sensationalist profanity to get this point across. Thats my opinion anyway for what its worth.
Profanity (and irreverence) is no stranger to Buddhism.
Congrats
:coffee:
though zen arises from aftermarket buddhas. is there hierarchy amongst the buddha crowd?
lol
David Attenborough (BBC UK) makes documentaries, in one of them he shows a situation where chimpanzees ripped a monkey apart and ate it. He said he was merely showing the audience the facts.
The fact that a so called Buddhist forum cannot sustain pictures or stories that can cause reeling is really sad.
Life is hard sometimes and if we as Buddhists cannot open our eyes and face reality, how can we address the wider context of this world? Which is life itself and suffering. But NOT only the suffering of ourself, oneself, that is an INTERIM step - it is not a final step in our journey.
No, I am sorry, people are getting killed, raccoon dogs are skinned alive for profit. And CONSUMERS should know this so you will never purchase again another faux fur product in this world. Voters and individuals should know this so they can take a more active role to shape the future of the world.
If as Buddhists you can't stand to see blood, well perhaps you can just - after all, fuck it.
Also, out of the tens of thousands of millions of koans, very few if any like this refer to these.
Blue Cliff Record.
Best wishes,
Abu
But I am no expert and so defer to your collective wisdoms.
Think about why you're angry. Then let it go without snapping and writing comments that make you look like an angry person.
In Zen there is pissing next to the altar, chopping up wooden Buddha statues for firewood, talk of killing the Buddha, and the old shit stick koan is mentioned quite often by various Zen teachers (I don't mean just modern teachers), and there are a few more instances of old Zen teachers doing or saying some rather outlandish sounding things, but they all have a context (likely very specific to the student the Zen master was teaching in that particular situation).
There's no rulebook that says Buddhism should be all prim and proper.
We are not talking about prim and proper here although I suspect there may be some cross purposes in these discussions. Hence the misunderstanding.
The attitude of F it though does not seem in sync with Buddhist practice despite how kool and katchy it sounds - let alone quoting teachers like Luang Por Chah etc
But here is a story, since many seem enarmoured with stories here:
Best wishes,
Abu
A monk once asked Ummon, "What is the Buddha?" Ummon answered thus: "A dried shit-stick!" (Note: A 'dry shit stick' was the medieval equivalent of toilet paper. Hence Yunmen's reply is sometimes translated as "Something to wipe your arse on!"