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It's tough being a homosexual. I honestly think it takes a real man to be gay. No offense guys. Some of the stuff gay people have to put up with most men would be appalled at anyone thinking they should have to go through. As drag queens used to say "It takes guts to be a sissy".
So true, Jerry.
When I have the opportunity to have a good conversation about this with hetero men who are limited in their empathy about gay life, I like to give them a what if. What if you woke up tomorrow and the world was changed and it was a dominantly homosexual world and you were expected to date men, kiss men, marry a man, have sex with a man, be intimate with a man etc. and you had to hide the fact that you liked women? What if you had to live in the closet?
I think it's really important that we visualize what life would be like if we were in a different pair of shoes.
I won't be having children in this life, but I can be a loving mother to any children who need me. The world is full of children who need loving mothers and fathers. Genetics is just science. Parental love knows no bounds.
With love,
Brigid
Hi Brigid,
I think we may have discussed this B4.
Recently, in just our small township, there were 23 children requiring foster care in one night-due to drunk/drugged/ poor parents/idiotic parents!
Recently, in just our small township, there were 23 children requiring foster care in one night-due to drunk/drugged/ poor parents/idiotic parents!
there are many ways to "have children" people...
another one that comes to mind is World Vision...
regards,
Xray:smilec:
Hay Xman et al,
I think though that one of the most basic premises of nature is to "pro" create. No one is ganna hand you a manual on raising kids. Most abusers don't see their actions as abuse. I think that people want something that's tangable, that they can look at and say to themselves, "Look what our relationship has bought us. We must be doing okay". Or something along those lines.
As for the Gay thing, yep its tough. Though so has been black, Asian, Rich, poor. Humans are the only creatures that seem to marginalise everyone else. We are soooo desperate to be "happy" that we'll do it at other's expense.
Me, I just treat people like I would like to be treated.....Respectably.
Yep my 0.02 again.......To let you all know....IT'S MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:grr:
If only it were that easy, Xrayman! Although my husband and I are able to have children, we would LOVE to adopt, but the US just doesn't make it very easy for people to do so. I hate to put a "price" on kids, but here it is VERY expensive to adopt, which is very unfortunate. I don't know how it is in other countries, though.
I used to work out with a doctor in town who adopted a number of children from Korea and Asia.
He said that if he didn't make buttloads of money - it would have never been possible. Adopting some kids have run him anywhere from $15,000 to $30,000!
Yes, it's crazy. We have looked into it, and have been quoted prices up to $40,000! It's ridiculous. There are plenty of people in this world that would be amazing parents, but can't afford to adopt. And look at how many children there are that need to be adopted!
I think (in my humble opinion), that Jack was gay, but Ennis was not, but the love that they shared for one another made Ennis breach that gap. That is why Jack needed to go to mexico, and started the other relationship with the other bloke, but Ennis was happy with Jack alone. I dont know.
Does it make sence, not for me:banghead: :banghead:
I think they were both gay..but because of the social attitudes toward homosexuality, Ennis supressed his natural tendencies. It was Jack that allowed Ennis to be who he was.
They both 'hid' their relationship (that's why Jack went to Mexico), but Jack was more comfortable in his own skin.
did the men in the movie.. become gay? were they lonely and wanted
to try each other on?
or were they gay to begin with...
sorry dont laugh people.. i really am wondering.
thanx
I'm not laughing at all, Colleen. But if you don't mind me saying, maybe you'd like to check out some websites that could be educational for you on this subject. People don't turn gay and it's not a lifestyle or a choice. People are born gay, bisexual and heterosexual. People are also born female but in male bodies and vice versa. That's why you'll see LGBT to categorize lesbian, gay, bisexual and transexual and transgender. It's really fascinating to learn how much variety there is in human life.
As I get older I'm constantly amazed at how many colours there are in the world. When I was younger, I tended to see things in black and white but now I'm always confronted with the fact that nothing is absolute. There are only shades of gray, or lots of colours, which I prefer, because I don't like the colour gray. LOL!
When you start to learn more about this I think you'll find yourself much more comfortable with people who are not heterosexual and with how others feel and express their love. It's not like there's too much love in this world, right? So, when we say we're uncomfortable with how others express their love, it's probably a good idea to remind ourselves how much love, in all it's variety, needs to be supported, appreciated and embraced.
Another thing to remember about sexual orientation issues is the vast amount of suffering our fellow humans have gone through because of the lack of understanding in our societies. If we understood how many gay teenagers commit suicide every year because their family and friends are homophobic and they couldn't face the rejection I think we'd be more understanding. Or how many homosexuals, transexuals and transgendered people are beaten, bullied, rejected, isolated and murdered every day simply because of who they are and how nature made them, we'd embrace and protect them. These are just two small examples of how people suffer from our intolerance and our misguided hatred. We need to develop understanding and compassion desperately because the suffering people go through is completely unnecessary and is socially constructed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone who is not born heterosexual and there is everything wrong with society's lack of understanding and resultant torture of those who are gay etc.
I congratulate you for asking these questions. It's very clear to me how much you want to understand this and I think it was brave and smart of you to ask them. I can see how compassionate you are and it's a great thing. keep going. If you do a search on Google you'll find tons of info. Here are a few links that will get you started:
well i dont no about that brigid.
i no of three people personally .. that had gay relationships
for 4-8 years.. now they are married and have families.. they have
been married or remained in straight relationships for almost 20 years.
i do believe that people are born gay.. but i do believe some people try
being gay on! for various reasons..
well i dont no about that brigid.
i no of three people personally .. that had gay relationships
for 4-8 years.. now they are married and have families.. they have
been married or remained in straight relationships for almost 20 years.
i do believe that people are born gay.. but i do believe some people try
being gay on! for various reasons..
Good point, Colleen.
I know this to be true.
My ex had a girlfriend who was married and living with a guy in New York. Her husband was a road manager for a big band. They did lots of parties, getting crazy, living the rock n roll life, etc.
He used to say that he wanted to have sex with a man because, "like, I mean, I'm like totally the only guy we hang around with that like totally HASN'T!"
He wanted to do it because it was some sort of badge of honor/courage or something.
I don't think experimenting with relationship with partners of different genders means that your orientation changes. If you're born gay/straight/bisexual/..., you'll very likely be gay/straight/bisexual/... no matter what kind of relationship you're in (or not).
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
I completely agree aquula... Many people who are homosexual may enter into a heterosexual relationship perhaps through Social pressure, perhaps through guilt, or even to conform with a standard perception.... however, at some point, a person has to start being "true to themselves", and I'm certain many relationships break up because finally, that person has to be honest with everyone, themselves included...
It is maybe true that younger people "experiment" and go through much confusion during adolescence, unsure of what they feel, how they feel and for whom these feelings are.... this is a natural part of adolescence for many, although not all, teenagers....
But sexual orientation is not something we can choose at birth or even opt for casually, later on. Homosexual, heterosexual, bi-sexual or trans-sexual... that's how you're born.
And for my money, I feel most desperately compassionate for the last group. Being born into a body you clearly know you should not be inhabiting, must be an awful thing to have to come to terms with, and to live with.
This discussion again points to the need for education and understanding of these complex issues. When we don't understand something fully it's, I think, important that we keep our minds and hearts open.
And for my money, I feel most desperately compassionate for the last group. Being born into a body you clearly know you should not be inhabiting, must be an awful thing to have to come to terms with, and to live with.
Fede, you're empathy and intuitive understanding are beautiful. Bless you.
Fostering-here in Australia (although it is not adoption), is free infact-the government provide SOME assistance on a fortnightly basis.
WE (wife and I)are emotionally unable to provide foster care, becasue we have decided that if we were to foster-and all of a sudden the Dickhead/drugged/abusive parents ask for the child's return-he/she has to go back! this would break our hearts.
Adoption YES I TOTALLY AGREE it is hard! you need to be in a (hetro) committed relationship (read Marriage) and under 35 ( I think-might be 38) anyway-they don't make it friggin easy!
and all of you are brave for telling your individual stories :rockon
regards,
Xrayman
This discussion again points to the need for education and understanding of these complex issues. When we don't understand something fully it's, I think, important that we keep our minds and hearts open.
Fede, you're empathy and intuitive understanding are beautiful. Bless you.
Brigid
So the only people for whom we have no compassion or respect are those who, having been educated and understood, still find that their personal view is that it is distasteful? The ones who are not PC enough to claim to be all in favour, are not homophobic but just plain don't like the idea?
So if anyone expresses that opinion we "thought police" them again until they darn well DO get PC enough eh?
Or are they entitled to their own considered opinions?
Having thought about it, Knitwitch, I've changed my mind. I've reread your post and I think I understand it. I have nothing to add to what I've said in my other posts and I have no wish to argue this point with anyone.
I don't know how or why you arrived at your assumption but I'm sorry that my post made you angry.
I am not at all angry. I don't want to argue. I just want some fairmindedness.
I am just pointing out that the tone of recent posts on this thread has been that if anyone doesn't embrace homosexuality wholeheartedly, there is something wrong with them and they must be re-educated, which smacks a bit of the old Soviet Union view of Wrong Thinking ... bung them in a mental institution because they disagee and are obviously mentally unstable.
Practicing compassion and the right to an opinion extends to everyone, even those who refuse to follow the trendy, the PC, the perceived right way of viewing things.
And before anyone accuses me of homophobia, I have posted here before that people's sexuality doesn't concern me in the slightest. I don't want to know about it, it's none of my business. In fact it's nobody's business but their own. It would be nice to keep it that way.
yes knitwich that was my point very earlier on in recent posts..
i have nothing againest anyone who is different than me.. and
that includes everyone. whether it be sexual or a different colour
or difference of opinion..
just some things like for me ( TO SEE IN ACTION TWO GAY PEOPLE
BEING INTIMATE ) is just alil uncomforting..
but please you all!!!!!! dont get me wrong.. i dont need to be educated,
i am not homiphobic, i do not thing there is anything wrong ...
its new out there to see this on a movie.. and i had A LITTLE BIT!!!
of a hard time with it..
Colleen - I am sorry if my original post to you made you upset. That being said...KUDOS to you for even going to see the movie, knowing that it was about a something that tends to make you feel a little uncomfortable.
So the only people for whom we have no compassion or respect are those who, having been educated and understood, still find that their personal view is that it is distasteful? The ones who are not PC enough to claim to be all in favour, are not homophobic but just plain don't like the idea?
So if anyone expresses that opinion we "thought police" them again until they darn well DO get PC enough eh?
Or are they entitled to their own considered opinions?
Dearest Knit,
I don't think anyone here is wanting to direct any "wrong thinkers" to the Behavior Modification Chamber (The BM Chamber... hee hee). Honestly..
I would only say, regarding some of the teachings we've seen posted here, is that: what is a personal view? And in stating some of our personal views, how do we affect other people with a different view?
I believe Buddha taught that personal views are conditioned things. Things we have been taught or led to believe our entire life by what our parents have taught us, our peers have taught us, or what society has taught us.
I don't think this just goes for homosexuality. This can go for physical punishment of children, a "woman's" place, trophy hunting, maternal-bond, etc. - all sorts of personal views that, at one time, may or may not have been PC.
What is there "not to like" and why does this cause negative or positive feelings?
My only point in posts like this one is that we evaluate our views on what we find tasteful or distasteful. Why should a person's sexuality be any different from them saying "I like steak" or "orange is MY favorite color."?
You're right - a person's sexuality is their own business. There are things that heterosexual people do in private that I really don't want to hear about or see.
I honestly don't find contempt for people that have not been reprogrammed into what society currently dictates as being "acceptable". I honestly only put my thoughts out (when I'm not being a complete jerk) to maybe have someone think of something in a different light. Just like people have put posts out here, regarding me, which made me evaluate my thoughts. Sometimes, I didn't like it - but, after reflection, sometimes I did see my view changing.
There are people out here that practice various metaphysical activities.
You know... I've always thought this stuff was a load of hogwash. I've thought Wicca, Eastern mysticism, chi, healing by goosing someone with special healing powers you've found behind your belly-button, paranormal activities, etc. - was just a load of crap. A huge load of crap.
But, what affect would I have on people here if I said, "I find that people that a) practice Wicca are fools or b) taking money from people you "heal" with your "chi" is a farce and it disgusts me".
Even though, honestly, I don't feel like that - what effect would I be having on someone who did practice these things?
I would have insulted them or hurt them. And what good does that do? Is that what I wish to do with my Speech or Intention? Certainly not. The last thing I would want to do is offend you or some other members here.
In fact, while I've believed that all of this stuff was a load of crap in the past - dealing with various members here (yourself included) it makes me evaluate my initial feelings or what I've been taught my whole life.
You've shown that your practice and beliefs lead towards the care and compassion of other human beings. And now I think to myself, "bf, maybe you need to rethink some of your personal views"...
Delboy,
That is what I thought you meant. Sorry about taking so long to respond. I don't get email notifications at this point.
The following statement isn't about anyone on this board: There are times though that when I hear about homosexuals "Ramming your lifestyle down our throats" that really angers me. How long have we had to sit by and watch heterosexuals live a happy life and then hear we aren't worth human garbage? I happen to think I'm worth a lot more.
Just very frustrated with U.S. laws regarding homosexuals and then have them take my tax money also. Not even being treated like a full citizen gets very irritating at times.
Colleen,
You have the right to be uncomfortable seeing homosexual activity on the screen. My opinions really have nothing to do with your statement. It has more to do with 40 years of being told I'm wrong for being. It hit a raw nerve within me. I guess what gets me is that the same isn't said for heterosexual activity in a movie as it is "normal". It was a reminder that I will never be "status quo" within the mainstream society.
Having been through "reeducation" via the ex-gay movement, I can attest to the fact that one is who they are at birth. I honestly felt that Ennis was gay. You see his father scaring his sons about homosexuality at a young age. Does the father already suspect that one of his children are homosexual? Or is he teaching his sons that violence is okay towards homosexuals for who they are? Or is he trying to tell them it is wrong? You aren't privvy to that information.
If you notice, Ennis is okay with sex. Men are socialized to be sexual beings and not deal with their feelings. His relationships with women were more messed up than with Jack because you don't see him being excited about them. You notice how happy he is when Jack comes to town. This would lead me to believe that he 1) is truly homosexual or 2) is in love with Jack. I know homosexual men who say they only have sexual feelings for their partner. You would have to ask them. So that is another way to look at it. You are right in thinking that Jack is gay. But what about his sexual relationship with his wife. You only see that pre-marriage.
This brings up another point. No one makes any comments about Jack having sex with his wife or Ennis having sex with his wife. I'm not saying that you need re-education as you have the right to your opinion. I find heterosexual sex scenes boring. It is time for me to get more popcorn to be honest. I find nothing erotic about it. I actually saw a lesbian sex scene in a film that I found to be the most erotic I'd ever seen and questioned whether I was bisexual by the end of it. (:) I'm not)
What saddens me is that many people have reduced this film to a 30 second scene without talking about what the movie was really about. Society's disdain for homosexuals and their inability to be who they are. When Ennis looks around to see if anyone is looking before he kisses Jack said more than the 30 seconds of sex they had.
I also think Jack's parents knew. His mom seemed resigned to it and his father seemed to have anger about it. He showed it through his anger about the burial plot. But is it really that Jack wasn't like them? Is this how it is illustrated? Darn, that college class (Introduction to Literature) ruined me. I now think about things and try and see what they are really trying to say by different means.
Now to clarify, I think weddings, baptisms, baby pictures and the like are wonderful things. I am happy for people celebrating moments in their lives. I'm saddened that most likely I will never have those opportunities. I've told my partner that we would not have a "commitment ceremony" until there was something legal to back it up. I'm not holding my breath for it either.
I don't think anyone here is wanting to direct any "wrong thinkers" to the Behavior Modification Chamber (The BM Chamber... hee hee). Honestly..
(snip)
I honestly don't find contempt for people that have not been reprogrammed into what society currently dictates as being "acceptable". I honestly only put my thoughts out (when I'm not being a complete jerk) to maybe have someone think of something in a different light. Just like people have put posts out here, regarding me, which made me evaluate my thoughts. Sometimes, I didn't like it - but, after reflection, sometimes I did see my view changing.
Does this make any sense?
Your pal,
-bf
Yes, darlin' it does, completely .... and if my own views WERE that homosexuality is distasteful, I most certainly WOULD be reflecting and re-thinking.
My post was only for a bit of balance - I know people who are not comfortable with it and who are not going to be able to change ... just as I know people who's views on women, hunting, corporal punishment etc etc aren't going to change, and they deserve respect and compassion too.
How on earth could I be homophobic? I was married to one for thirteen years !!!!
My post was only for a bit of balance - I know people who are not comfortable with it and who are not going to be able to change ... just as I know people who's views on women, hunting, corporal punishment etc etc aren't going to change, and they deserve respect and compassion too.
I think there is a danger that we may be getting our wires crossed, here....
Everyone, regardless of who they are or what they think, believe or do, deserves our Unconditional Love and Universal Compassion. This is something that we variously work to develop and achieve, to naturally varying degrees of success... humans that we are, it takes Effort - and all the other seven aspects of the Eightfold Path.
But this doesn't mean that we have to agree with what they think, or even that we have to tolerate and accept it.
As Buddhists, desiring to change ourselves for the better, we are constantly having to accept that our attitudes, opinions and points of View are subject to change and re-evaluation. And at some point, we will encounter those who sharply contradict, or contrast with what we have accepted as our Truth.
And sometimes, it may fall to us to illustrate the 'Wrong Everything' of other people...
This does not make us any less Loving or Compassionate. But we have to recognise their "flaw" and openly declare that it is according to us, wrong. We disagree with it, and we find it unskillful and un-Mindful....
That doesn't mean we wish to impose our Will on them, and make them change... but it does mean that we do not tolerate their Point of View. That is not who they Are. it's simply what they Think.
So we must have Compassion and Love for the "Sinner"... but on no account should we be willing to stand quietly by, and accept and permit their "Sin" to go without comment....
I am just pointing out that the tone of recent posts on this thread has been that if anyone doesn't embrace homosexuality wholeheartedly, there is something wrong with them and they must be re-educated, which smacks a bit of the old Soviet Union view of Wrong Thinking ... bung them in a mental institution because they disagee and are obviously mentally unstable.
Practicing compassion and the right to an opinion extends to everyone, even those who refuse to follow the trendy, the PC, the perceived right way of viewing things.
My post was only for a bit of balance - I know people who are not comfortable with it and who are not going to be able to change ... just as I know people who's views on women, hunting, corporal punishment etc etc aren't going to change, and they deserve respect and compassion too.
And telling people what to think is wrong.
The "tone of recent posts" to which you are referring were compassionate, respectful and embracing.
There is nothing "trendy" or "PC" about defending one's fellow beings.
No one is telling anyone what to think. The posts you have been reading in this thread are precisely what Fede pointed them out to be:
...this doesn't mean that we have to agree with what they think, or even that we have to tolerate and accept it.
As Buddhists, desiring to change ourselves for the better, we are constantly having to accept that our attitudes, opinions and points of View are subject to change and re-evaluation. And at some point, we will encounter those who sharply contradict, or contrast with what we have accepted as our Truth.
And sometimes, it may fall to us to illustrate the 'Wrong Everything' of other people...
This does not make us any less Loving or Compassionate. But we have to recognise their "flaw" and openly declare that it is according to us, wrong. We disagree with it, and we find it unskillful and un-Mindful....
That doesn't mean we wish to impose our Will on them, and make them change... but it does mean that we do not tolerate their Point of View. That is not who they Are. it's simply what they Think.
So we must have Compassion and Love for the "Sinner"... but on no account should we be willing to stand quietly by, and accept and permit their "Sin" to go without comment....
hmm .. i didnt like the movie..
if two men are in love and happy .. wunderful!
do i want to see it ? no !
i found it very uncomfortable to see two guys go at it.. sorry
folks..
we are all different as humans yes... to exept each other is the key..
and understand our differences
but to see, hear, " HEY IM GAY.. BEING GAY IS HARD BUT LET ME PUT IT
OUT IN YOUR FACE / LET ME DUMP MY PROBLEM ON YOU" hmmm
i have an easier time agreeing that we are different, when people are not wearing their idenity on their shoulder , proud yet humble.
i dont think im being prejudice .. ???
there is nothing wrong with being inlove..
i just dont want to see two men making out.. we dont see that everyday
its a shock..
anyone agree????
iv heard so so much that this was an awesome movie..
it bothered me.
did the men in the movie.. become gay? were they lonely and wanted
to try each other on?
The two quotes above are the posts in question. They are hurtful and I protested them in the gentlest and most compassionate way I knew how. This is a Buddhist forum. In Buddhism, lack of empathy, understanding and intolerance of our fellow beings are Wrong Views. Intolerance to a clear lack of understanding and empathy for the members of this sangha is what I possess. Intolerance to love, in any form, is what I protest.
But we have to recognise their "flaw" and openly declare that it is according to us, wrong. We disagree with it, and we find it unskillful and un-Mindful....
Quote - Fede
Right - and that will have as much effect on someone else as a bible thumper telling US that we are wrong in his view.
I think that there is a need for some clarification here. Indeed, I believe that this is an echo of a very serious debate that is becoming urgent in society. For me, it is summarised in the question: what are the limits to tolerance?
By 'tolerance', I would ask you to understand that I mean all those values of freedom and rights about which we hear so much.
The other day, I watched the film Downfall with Bruno Ganz playing the ageing Hitler during his last days. It is a masterly film and I have, today, gone out and bought a copy - a rare occurrence in my present financial state! LOL What most struck me about the film is the way in which the Nazi 'monsters' are humanised. Their crimes and personal habits are not disguised or played down; no excuses are made for their behaviour or their hatred of 'lesser races'. Despite their awfulness and their iconic status as symbols of evil, there was a sense in which these were people.
For years now, I have wondered at the actions of Magda Goebbels. How could a parent drug and then poison their own children? Corinna Harfouch, who plays Frau Doktor Goebbels in the film, had the same problem, apparently. What she discloses to us is a woman who cannot see any point in surviving into a world without National Socialism and would not condemn her childen to it either. And I asked myself: "Is there anything so terrible to envisage in a future world that I would rather kill my children before they suffered it? If I knew that we were all to die in the agonies of radiation sickness in a post-nuclear wilderness, would I gently poison those I love rather than watch them sicken and suffer?"
Asking myself the question also made me ask myself about current events:the David Irving trial for holocaust denial, legal challenges to the teaching of 'creationism', calls for the destruction of Israel, and the abominable homophobic statements from African church leaders and others. If we are to demand, as a right, our freedom to express views which are antipathetic to our opponents, should they not exercise the same right? But, if we are to impose limits, where do we set them? And who shall set them? And who shall guard the guardians and watch the censors?
Having worked for many years in the field of affirmative therapy, I still have no answer to a question that I posed in the '80s: whose outcome is it anyway? Can we extend affirmation and empowerment to the concentration camp guard who comes to therapy in order to be a more effective concentration camp guard? Or what about the abusers sent to me by the courts who simply wanted to stop feeling 'guilty'? They saw nothing wrong with their actions. It was the law which was wrong. Many of my colleagues refused to work with such clients and I can appreciate their honest integrity. My own approach has always been pretty consistent: I am not a tabula rasa to my clients or pilgrims in this sort of situation. I nail my colours to the mast and then offer the hand of companionship through a hard time. I make it clear that I do not agree and that I have strong views on the subject (with Evangelical, 'born again' Christian pilgrims, for example). Some people can go along with that; some cannot. As I do not have more than an average Jewish male's Messiah complex, I know that I cannot be of use to everyone.
But it still does not answer my basic dilemma:
* I believe in the fundamental goodness, sanctity and Buddha/Christ-nature of all humans (let's start there, please. The Christ nature of the whole cosmos is far too big for me and 'takes my eye off the ball').
* I believe that each person has the right to hold and express their opinions.
* I believe that each person has a unique and, thus, uniquely valuable view of the world which may differ in almost all respects from mine.
* I believe that there are some opinions, views and actions which are outside the pale of common humanity.
Now I know that this last statement undermines the second statement. There's the dilemma.
And Knitwitch is right to challenge the bald assumption that one view is right and another wrong. In Salem, it was right to believe in Satan. In Nazi Germany, right to believe in the contamination of the Jews. In first century Judaea, right to obey Caesar. Those who disagreed were killed. Knitwich and my Earth-and-Sky predecessors were slaughtered as 'pagans' and 'idolaters'.
I admit that I have identified, all my life, with minorities. Some would say that it is my longstanding neurosis about authority.LOL As a neurotic I recognise the rality of authority and I hate it. And I don't want to be tolerated. I want my value acknowledged as equal. But if I do that, where do I stop? Do I recognise equal value to the Ba'ath Party murderer? to the rapist or the paedophile?
I recall reading the story of a Quaker prison visitor, back in the 17th century (not a good time to be a Quaker or to visit prisons). She did not fight the authorities. She simply saw to it that prisoners were given the minimum entitlement. She even stood with murderers, on the gallows, as they wee being "turned off" but never commented on their crimes or sentence.
Judge not, lest ye be judged has become a guiding star for me. Perhaps this is what someone meant when they said that I take an "Everyman position". Thanks to you (I can't remember who said it here but I love you for it) I have understood another facet of this strange and wonderful construct called Me.
Comments
So true, Jerry.
When I have the opportunity to have a good conversation about this with hetero men who are limited in their empathy about gay life, I like to give them a what if. What if you woke up tomorrow and the world was changed and it was a dominantly homosexual world and you were expected to date men, kiss men, marry a man, have sex with a man, be intimate with a man etc. and you had to hide the fact that you liked women? What if you had to live in the closet?
I think it's really important that we visualize what life would be like if we were in a different pair of shoes.
Brigid
Hi Brigid,
I think we may have discussed this B4.
Recently, in just our small township, there were 23 children requiring foster care in one night-due to drunk/drugged/ poor parents/idiotic parents!
there are many ways to "have children" people...
another one that comes to mind is World Vision...
regards,
Xray:smilec:
Hay Xman et al,
I think though that one of the most basic premises of nature is to "pro" create. No one is ganna hand you a manual on raising kids. Most abusers don't see their actions as abuse. I think that people want something that's tangable, that they can look at and say to themselves, "Look what our relationship has bought us. We must be doing okay". Or something along those lines.
As for the Gay thing, yep its tough. Though so has been black, Asian, Rich, poor. Humans are the only creatures that seem to marginalise everyone else. We are soooo desperate to be "happy" that we'll do it at other's expense.
Me, I just treat people like I would like to be treated.....Respectably.
Yep my 0.02 again.......To let you all know....IT'S MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:grr:
If only it were that easy, Xrayman! Although my husband and I are able to have children, we would LOVE to adopt, but the US just doesn't make it very easy for people to do so. I hate to put a "price" on kids, but here it is VERY expensive to adopt, which is very unfortunate. I don't know how it is in other countries, though.
He said that if he didn't make buttloads of money - it would have never been possible. Adopting some kids have run him anywhere from $15,000 to $30,000!
Isn't that weird?
-bf
did the men in the movie.. become gay? were they lonely and wanted
to try each other on?
or were they gay to begin with...
sorry dont laugh people.. i really am wondering.
thanx
Does it make sence, not for me:banghead:
They both 'hid' their relationship (that's why Jack went to Mexico), but Jack was more comfortable in his own skin.
I'm not laughing at all, Colleen. But if you don't mind me saying, maybe you'd like to check out some websites that could be educational for you on this subject. People don't turn gay and it's not a lifestyle or a choice. People are born gay, bisexual and heterosexual. People are also born female but in male bodies and vice versa. That's why you'll see LGBT to categorize lesbian, gay, bisexual and transexual and transgender. It's really fascinating to learn how much variety there is in human life.
As I get older I'm constantly amazed at how many colours there are in the world. When I was younger, I tended to see things in black and white but now I'm always confronted with the fact that nothing is absolute. There are only shades of gray, or lots of colours, which I prefer, because I don't like the colour gray. LOL!
When you start to learn more about this I think you'll find yourself much more comfortable with people who are not heterosexual and with how others feel and express their love. It's not like there's too much love in this world, right? So, when we say we're uncomfortable with how others express their love, it's probably a good idea to remind ourselves how much love, in all it's variety, needs to be supported, appreciated and embraced.
Another thing to remember about sexual orientation issues is the vast amount of suffering our fellow humans have gone through because of the lack of understanding in our societies. If we understood how many gay teenagers commit suicide every year because their family and friends are homophobic and they couldn't face the rejection I think we'd be more understanding. Or how many homosexuals, transexuals and transgendered people are beaten, bullied, rejected, isolated and murdered every day simply because of who they are and how nature made them, we'd embrace and protect them. These are just two small examples of how people suffer from our intolerance and our misguided hatred. We need to develop understanding and compassion desperately because the suffering people go through is completely unnecessary and is socially constructed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone who is not born heterosexual and there is everything wrong with society's lack of understanding and resultant torture of those who are gay etc.
I congratulate you for asking these questions. It's very clear to me how much you want to understand this and I think it was brave and smart of you to ask them. I can see how compassionate you are and it's a great thing. keep going. If you do a search on Google you'll find tons of info. Here are a few links that will get you started:
GLAD
PFLAG CANADA
With love,
Brigid
i no of three people personally .. that had gay relationships
for 4-8 years.. now they are married and have families.. they have
been married or remained in straight relationships for almost 20 years.
i do believe that people are born gay.. but i do believe some people try
being gay on! for various reasons..
hints to suggest that.
Good point, Colleen.
I know this to be true.
My ex had a girlfriend who was married and living with a guy in New York. Her husband was a road manager for a big band. They did lots of parties, getting crazy, living the rock n roll life, etc.
He used to say that he wanted to have sex with a man because, "like, I mean, I'm like totally the only guy we hang around with that like totally HASN'T!"
He wanted to do it because it was some sort of badge of honor/courage or something.
-bf
It is maybe true that younger people "experiment" and go through much confusion during adolescence, unsure of what they feel, how they feel and for whom these feelings are.... this is a natural part of adolescence for many, although not all, teenagers....
But sexual orientation is not something we can choose at birth or even opt for casually, later on. Homosexual, heterosexual, bi-sexual or trans-sexual... that's how you're born.
And for my money, I feel most desperately compassionate for the last group. Being born into a body you clearly know you should not be inhabiting, must be an awful thing to have to come to terms with, and to live with.
Beautiful posts.
This discussion again points to the need for education and understanding of these complex issues. When we don't understand something fully it's, I think, important that we keep our minds and hearts open.
Fede, you're empathy and intuitive understanding are beautiful. Bless you.
Brigid
Fostering-here in Australia (although it is not adoption), is free infact-the government provide SOME assistance on a fortnightly basis.
WE (wife and I)are emotionally unable to provide foster care, becasue we have decided that if we were to foster-and all of a sudden the Dickhead/drugged/abusive parents ask for the child's return-he/she has to go back! this would break our hearts.
Adoption YES I TOTALLY AGREE it is hard! you need to be in a (hetro) committed relationship (read Marriage) and under 35 ( I think-might be 38) anyway-they don't make it friggin easy!
and all of you are brave for telling your individual stories :rockon
regards,
Xrayman
So the only people for whom we have no compassion or respect are those who, having been educated and understood, still find that their personal view is that it is distasteful? The ones who are not PC enough to claim to be all in favour, are not homophobic but just plain don't like the idea?
So if anyone expresses that opinion we "thought police" them again until they darn well DO get PC enough eh?
Or are they entitled to their own considered opinions?
Can you clarify for me, please?
Brigid
I don't know how or why you arrived at your assumption but I'm sorry that my post made you angry.
Brigid
I am just pointing out that the tone of recent posts on this thread has been that if anyone doesn't embrace homosexuality wholeheartedly, there is something wrong with them and they must be re-educated, which smacks a bit of the old Soviet Union view of Wrong Thinking ... bung them in a mental institution because they disagee and are obviously mentally unstable.
Practicing compassion and the right to an opinion extends to everyone, even those who refuse to follow the trendy, the PC, the perceived right way of viewing things.
And before anyone accuses me of homophobia, I have posted here before that people's sexuality doesn't concern me in the slightest. I don't want to know about it, it's none of my business. In fact it's nobody's business but their own. It would be nice to keep it that way.
i have nothing againest anyone who is different than me.. and
that includes everyone. whether it be sexual or a different colour
or difference of opinion..
just some things like for me ( TO SEE IN ACTION TWO GAY PEOPLE
BEING INTIMATE ) is just alil uncomforting..
but please you all!!!!!! dont get me wrong.. i dont need to be educated,
i am not homiphobic, i do not thing there is anything wrong ...
its new out there to see this on a movie.. and i had A LITTLE BIT!!!
of a hard time with it..
hope that clears me..
whew!
Dearest Knit,
I don't think anyone here is wanting to direct any "wrong thinkers" to the Behavior Modification Chamber (The BM Chamber... hee hee). Honestly..
I would only say, regarding some of the teachings we've seen posted here, is that: what is a personal view? And in stating some of our personal views, how do we affect other people with a different view?
I believe Buddha taught that personal views are conditioned things. Things we have been taught or led to believe our entire life by what our parents have taught us, our peers have taught us, or what society has taught us.
I don't think this just goes for homosexuality. This can go for physical punishment of children, a "woman's" place, trophy hunting, maternal-bond, etc. - all sorts of personal views that, at one time, may or may not have been PC.
What is there "not to like" and why does this cause negative or positive feelings?
My only point in posts like this one is that we evaluate our views on what we find tasteful or distasteful. Why should a person's sexuality be any different from them saying "I like steak" or "orange is MY favorite color."?
You're right - a person's sexuality is their own business. There are things that heterosexual people do in private that I really don't want to hear about or see.
I honestly don't find contempt for people that have not been reprogrammed into what society currently dictates as being "acceptable". I honestly only put my thoughts out (when I'm not being a complete jerk) to maybe have someone think of something in a different light. Just like people have put posts out here, regarding me, which made me evaluate my thoughts. Sometimes, I didn't like it - but, after reflection, sometimes I did see my view changing.
Does this make any sense?
Your pal,
-bf
Here is a sample of MY closemindedness...
There are people out here that practice various metaphysical activities.
You know... I've always thought this stuff was a load of hogwash. I've thought Wicca, Eastern mysticism, chi, healing by goosing someone with special healing powers you've found behind your belly-button, paranormal activities, etc. - was just a load of crap. A huge load of crap.
But, what affect would I have on people here if I said, "I find that people that a) practice Wicca are fools or b) taking money from people you "heal" with your "chi" is a farce and it disgusts me".
Even though, honestly, I don't feel like that - what effect would I be having on someone who did practice these things?
I would have insulted them or hurt them. And what good does that do? Is that what I wish to do with my Speech or Intention? Certainly not. The last thing I would want to do is offend you or some other members here.
In fact, while I've believed that all of this stuff was a load of crap in the past - dealing with various members here (yourself included) it makes me evaluate my initial feelings or what I've been taught my whole life.
You've shown that your practice and beliefs lead towards the care and compassion of other human beings. And now I think to myself, "bf, maybe you need to rethink some of your personal views"...
-bf
That is what I thought you meant. Sorry about taking so long to respond. I don't get email notifications at this point.
The following statement isn't about anyone on this board: There are times though that when I hear about homosexuals "Ramming your lifestyle down our throats" that really angers me. How long have we had to sit by and watch heterosexuals live a happy life and then hear we aren't worth human garbage? I happen to think I'm worth a lot more.
Just very frustrated with U.S. laws regarding homosexuals and then have them take my tax money also. Not even being treated like a full citizen gets very irritating at times.
You have the right to be uncomfortable seeing homosexual activity on the screen. My opinions really have nothing to do with your statement. It has more to do with 40 years of being told I'm wrong for being. It hit a raw nerve within me. I guess what gets me is that the same isn't said for heterosexual activity in a movie as it is "normal". It was a reminder that I will never be "status quo" within the mainstream society.
Having been through "reeducation" via the ex-gay movement, I can attest to the fact that one is who they are at birth. I honestly felt that Ennis was gay. You see his father scaring his sons about homosexuality at a young age. Does the father already suspect that one of his children are homosexual? Or is he teaching his sons that violence is okay towards homosexuals for who they are? Or is he trying to tell them it is wrong? You aren't privvy to that information.
If you notice, Ennis is okay with sex. Men are socialized to be sexual beings and not deal with their feelings. His relationships with women were more messed up than with Jack because you don't see him being excited about them. You notice how happy he is when Jack comes to town. This would lead me to believe that he 1) is truly homosexual or 2) is in love with Jack. I know homosexual men who say they only have sexual feelings for their partner. You would have to ask them. So that is another way to look at it. You are right in thinking that Jack is gay. But what about his sexual relationship with his wife. You only see that pre-marriage.
This brings up another point. No one makes any comments about Jack having sex with his wife or Ennis having sex with his wife. I'm not saying that you need re-education as you have the right to your opinion. I find heterosexual sex scenes boring. It is time for me to get more popcorn to be honest. I find nothing erotic about it. I actually saw a lesbian sex scene in a film that I found to be the most erotic I'd ever seen and questioned whether I was bisexual by the end of it. (:) I'm not)
What saddens me is that many people have reduced this film to a 30 second scene without talking about what the movie was really about. Society's disdain for homosexuals and their inability to be who they are. When Ennis looks around to see if anyone is looking before he kisses Jack said more than the 30 seconds of sex they had.
I also think Jack's parents knew. His mom seemed resigned to it and his father seemed to have anger about it. He showed it through his anger about the burial plot. But is it really that Jack wasn't like them? Is this how it is illustrated? Darn, that college class (Introduction to Literature) ruined me. I now think about things and try and see what they are really trying to say by different means.
Now to clarify, I think weddings, baptisms, baby pictures and the like are wonderful things. I am happy for people celebrating moments in their lives. I'm saddened that most likely I will never have those opportunities. I've told my partner that we would not have a "commitment ceremony" until there was something legal to back it up. I'm not holding my breath for it either.
-bf
well you can still come to toronto and get married.
this may come to an end with our new government.. but i sure hope not.
xx
Yes, darlin' it does, completely .... and if my own views WERE that homosexuality is distasteful, I most certainly WOULD be reflecting and re-thinking.
My post was only for a bit of balance - I know people who are not comfortable with it and who are not going to be able to change ... just as I know people who's views on women, hunting, corporal punishment etc etc aren't going to change, and they deserve respect and compassion too.
How on earth could I be homophobic? I was married to one for thirteen years !!!!
Not the answer I was looking for Knitwitch...
Off to the BM Chamber for you!
-bf
(Seen the Great Escape? Well I have the motorbike, might as well to the rest of the character!)
-bf
I've seen you in a picture you posted and I must say you are a two legged
Love Potion Number 9!
Yeah, baby!
-bf
No.9? Oh yes, that's the one with the bat ears and slugslime isn't it? Went wrong last time I made it.
I think there is a danger that we may be getting our wires crossed, here....
Everyone, regardless of who they are or what they think, believe or do, deserves our Unconditional Love and Universal Compassion. This is something that we variously work to develop and achieve, to naturally varying degrees of success... humans that we are, it takes Effort - and all the other seven aspects of the Eightfold Path.
But this doesn't mean that we have to agree with what they think, or even that we have to tolerate and accept it.
As Buddhists, desiring to change ourselves for the better, we are constantly having to accept that our attitudes, opinions and points of View are subject to change and re-evaluation. And at some point, we will encounter those who sharply contradict, or contrast with what we have accepted as our Truth.
And sometimes, it may fall to us to illustrate the 'Wrong Everything' of other people...
This does not make us any less Loving or Compassionate. But we have to recognise their "flaw" and openly declare that it is according to us, wrong. We disagree with it, and we find it unskillful and un-Mindful....
That doesn't mean we wish to impose our Will on them, and make them change... but it does mean that we do not tolerate their Point of View. That is not who they Are. it's simply what they Think.
So we must have Compassion and Love for the "Sinner"... but on no account should we be willing to stand quietly by, and accept and permit their "Sin" to go without comment....
We were looking for (and the judges would have accepted):
"Whatever BF says."
Off to the BM Chamber with her for her ReNedification. Okekly Dokely!
-bf
I think these comments are unfair:
The "tone of recent posts" to which you are referring were compassionate, respectful and embracing.
There is nothing "trendy" or "PC" about defending one's fellow beings.
No one is telling anyone what to think. The posts you have been reading in this thread are precisely what Fede pointed them out to be:
The two quotes above are the posts in question. They are hurtful and I protested them in the gentlest and most compassionate way I knew how. This is a Buddhist forum. In Buddhism, lack of empathy, understanding and intolerance of our fellow beings are Wrong Views. Intolerance to a clear lack of understanding and empathy for the members of this sangha is what I possess. Intolerance to love, in any form, is what I protest.
Brigid
Quote - Fede
Right - and that will have as much effect on someone else as a bible thumper telling US that we are wrong in his view.
By 'tolerance', I would ask you to understand that I mean all those values of freedom and rights about which we hear so much.
The other day, I watched the film Downfall with Bruno Ganz playing the ageing Hitler during his last days. It is a masterly film and I have, today, gone out and bought a copy - a rare occurrence in my present financial state! LOL What most struck me about the film is the way in which the Nazi 'monsters' are humanised. Their crimes and personal habits are not disguised or played down; no excuses are made for their behaviour or their hatred of 'lesser races'. Despite their awfulness and their iconic status as symbols of evil, there was a sense in which these were people.
For years now, I have wondered at the actions of Magda Goebbels. How could a parent drug and then poison their own children? Corinna Harfouch, who plays Frau Doktor Goebbels in the film, had the same problem, apparently. What she discloses to us is a woman who cannot see any point in surviving into a world without National Socialism and would not condemn her childen to it either. And I asked myself: "Is there anything so terrible to envisage in a future world that I would rather kill my children before they suffered it? If I knew that we were all to die in the agonies of radiation sickness in a post-nuclear wilderness, would I gently poison those I love rather than watch them sicken and suffer?"
Asking myself the question also made me ask myself about current events:the David Irving trial for holocaust denial, legal challenges to the teaching of 'creationism', calls for the destruction of Israel, and the abominable homophobic statements from African church leaders and others. If we are to demand, as a right, our freedom to express views which are antipathetic to our opponents, should they not exercise the same right? But, if we are to impose limits, where do we set them? And who shall set them? And who shall guard the guardians and watch the censors?
Having worked for many years in the field of affirmative therapy, I still have no answer to a question that I posed in the '80s: whose outcome is it anyway? Can we extend affirmation and empowerment to the concentration camp guard who comes to therapy in order to be a more effective concentration camp guard? Or what about the abusers sent to me by the courts who simply wanted to stop feeling 'guilty'? They saw nothing wrong with their actions. It was the law which was wrong. Many of my colleagues refused to work with such clients and I can appreciate their honest integrity. My own approach has always been pretty consistent: I am not a tabula rasa to my clients or pilgrims in this sort of situation. I nail my colours to the mast and then offer the hand of companionship through a hard time. I make it clear that I do not agree and that I have strong views on the subject (with Evangelical, 'born again' Christian pilgrims, for example). Some people can go along with that; some cannot. As I do not have more than an average Jewish male's Messiah complex, I know that I cannot be of use to everyone.
But it still does not answer my basic dilemma:
* I believe in the fundamental goodness, sanctity and Buddha/Christ-nature of all humans (let's start there, please. The Christ nature of the whole cosmos is far too big for me and 'takes my eye off the ball').
* I believe that each person has the right to hold and express their opinions.
* I believe that each person has a unique and, thus, uniquely valuable view of the world which may differ in almost all respects from mine.
* I believe that there are some opinions, views and actions which are outside the pale of common humanity.
Now I know that this last statement undermines the second statement. There's the dilemma.
And Knitwitch is right to challenge the bald assumption that one view is right and another wrong. In Salem, it was right to believe in Satan. In Nazi Germany, right to believe in the contamination of the Jews. In first century Judaea, right to obey Caesar. Those who disagreed were killed. Knitwich and my Earth-and-Sky predecessors were slaughtered as 'pagans' and 'idolaters'.
I admit that I have identified, all my life, with minorities. Some would say that it is my longstanding neurosis about authority.LOL As a neurotic I recognise the rality of authority and I hate it. And I don't want to be tolerated. I want my value acknowledged as equal. But if I do that, where do I stop? Do I recognise equal value to the Ba'ath Party murderer? to the rapist or the paedophile?
I recall reading the story of a Quaker prison visitor, back in the 17th century (not a good time to be a Quaker or to visit prisons). She did not fight the authorities. She simply saw to it that prisoners were given the minimum entitlement. She even stood with murderers, on the gallows, as they wee being "turned off" but never commented on their crimes or sentence.
Judge not, lest ye be judged has become a guiding star for me. Perhaps this is what someone meant when they said that I take an "Everyman position". Thanks to you (I can't remember who said it here but I love you for it) I have understood another facet of this strange and wonderful construct called Me.
I'm sorry - what "flaw" are we talking about?
-bf
The flaw of not thinking the way Fede does - it was a quote from her post No. 141