Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
* I believe that each person has the right to hold and express their opinions.
* I believe that each person has a unique and, thus, uniquely valuable view of the world which may differ in almost all respects from mine.
* I believe that there are some opinions, views and actions which are outside the pale of common humanity.
Now I know that this last statement undermines the second statement. There's the dilemma.
So...if a person has a view about someone, or a group of individuals, it's ok for that person to voice their opinion, even though it may be terribly hurtful? What about "Right Speech"?? To me, it's not a big deal if someone does not have the same view as me, but if someone openly "bashes" and says hurtful things, how is that ok?
So...if a person has a view about someone, or a group of individuals, it's ok for that person to voice their opinion, even though it may be terribly hurtful? What about "Right Speech"?? To me, it's not a big deal if someone does not have the same view as me, but if someone openly "bashes" and says hurtful things, how is that ok?
That is precisely the problem, YM. Where, in freedom of speech, does freedom to offend finish and freedom from being offended begin? And who decides?
Yes, quite, Simon. And this is an important issue especially because this is a public forum, not a private conversation.
There are those who hold the opinion that white people are superior to people of colour. That is an opinion. I would waste no time, however, in defending the "right" of that opinion to be expressed in a public forum. If there were a danger that all those who held this opinion were to be rounded up and deprived of their freedom or life, I would protest.
That not being the case here, I would like to remind everyone that there are laws governing the dissemination of hate in public forums. Yes, hate is a strong word and not necessarily the right one for the issue we face here. However, "hurtful" is good enough for me. I don't want anyone hurt in this forum.
The response to hurtful expressions of opinion on this thread have been compassionate. That is more than can be said for the way in which those hurtful comments were expressed in the first place.
The right to express hurtful opinions in a public forum ends at the keyboard.
Some may say this is just my opinion. However, it is also an opinion shared by the governments of Canada, the U.S. and the U.K.
Before we express opinions which may be hurtful to those who are members of this site, I suggest we investigate the skillfulness of those views in the light of the Dharma. If we are unable or unwilling to do so, the solution would be to follow the simple directive of the Buddha himself and refrain from divisive speech.
I don't htink it's quite that easy...
People have different levels at which they would begin to be offended.
For example, it takes alot for be to be offended. People are entitled to voice their opinions.
It is up to me how I let them effect me.
If a person chooses to be offensive, I can make an effort to have an intellectual conversation (not debate) with them. I will try to underdstand their point of view, as I would expect them to do the same. If they are endlessly 'ignorant' or we continue to disagree, so be it. Agree to disagree.
But I can't help but think that there is almost too much PC....
We are in a world of how many billions of people????
It is impossible to please everyone.
All I can do is be Mindful of what I do...and take offense to only that which effects me physically.
I see what you are saying, however, I think that if a person is mindful, they know when they are going to offend someone by what they are saying. It's ok to have different views and opinoins about things, but IMO, it's not ok to be offensive towards others when you share those views and opinions with people. There are ways to have discussions without being offensive. And then there will always be the people that don't really care when they do offend others. So that is when you just have to chalk it up to them not being "mindful" and trying not to let it ruffle your feathers.
Like a few of us have already mentioned on this thread...when offensive things were said, we all handled it with respect and compassion, rather than just attacking the person for sharing their views. So really, I don't think any of us got too upset with the comments that were made. We were all just sharing our views on the subject.
This also makes me think of how Buddha or even great Buddhist teachers would handle issues like this.
It seems to me that, most of the time. when I find that I have a harsh reply I need to make to someone - it's because of what my "ego" or "self" needs to do to heal it's wounds.
I don't think I've read any passages where Buddha or other teachers replied with anger or venom.
At most, they were terse, but did not verbally attack the other person. In many cases, their responses diffused the situation and gave the others something to think about.
I do try to do this. I know we've had the "don't do - try" discussion - but I don't always succeed in biting my tongue and thinking, "is this really worth a response?"
I agree, Yogamama...
However, what it offensive to you may not be offensive to me...
I have yet to find offense to anything said in the threads that I read. First, because on a forum like this, I don't think anyone is out to offend. Second, they may not know how to be Mindful and will come "straight out with it". Sure we can advise on Mindfulness, but if they are not open to it.....we could offend them by trying too hard to 'revise' them...
I guess my point is, our society (especially in the US) has become very sensitive to A LOT!
It seems that no one can say anything or express an opinion without offending someone.
And Everybody has a different tolerance level....so I suppose it goes bak to what Simon asked..where does one end and the other begin??
I don't think the answer is as simple as "at the keyboard' or 'at the tip of my tongue". Before you know it, no one will be saying anything out of fear!
I think that 99% of all posts out here are not meant with the intent to hurt - whether we realize that while reading them or not.
I can't agree with your last sentence though... I think that by using the Eightfold Path there will be no reason not to say anything out of fear. Fear will not be what causes us to give pause - but by following the Eightfold Path.
Excellent points, Sharpiegirl. In fact, if you look at the post about "Newspeak", you will see that we are also talking about how the world is getting way too sensitive to things that are being said.
But like Buddhafoot, I can't agree with your last sentence, for the same reasons that bf stated already.
Ah HA! I think I know where a misunderstanding is....
I wasn't referring just to this forum...but society in general!
sorry, i missed out on making that clear!
Ah HA! I think I know where a misunderstanding is....
I wasn't referring just to this forum...but society in general!
sorry, i missed out on making that clear!
Yes, but everyone on THIS forum should be following the Eightfold Path!
Now I dont know if this story is true, but it was one of the first lessons of the Buddha that I heard and am still looking for it ever since.
The Buddha was sitting on a hill meditating, and a man came up to him, swearing and throughing insults at the Buddha. The Buddha looked up and asked the man "if someone gives you a present, and you dont want it, whos is it?" and the man answered " the person that gave it to you" and the Buddha replied "So it is with your insults"
I think it is in a person own mind if he wants to be offended or not. It is like Yogamama said, the world is to big, you cant please everybody, somewhere you are going to insult, or hurt someone, but it is that persons own choice to axcept the insult or not
I would like to add that the comments in question were not a spewing of vitriolic abuse, unlike the story about the Buddha that Riponcub reminded us of (and I know Buddhafoot loves that story). They were framed in the form of questions to the forum. And we answered, in the light of the Dharma, the Eightfold Path. We answered them with compassion and with Buddhism in mind. If this were a celebrity gossip forum, I'm sure there would be a different level of tolerance for unskillful or hurtful speech. But this is a Dharma board and we're all trying to follow the Eightfold Path and that is what, presumably, new Buddhists come here for. (I keep dangling my participles!)
So, I definitely agree with you, Sharpiegirl, when it comes to the world at large. But there are different expectations and standards here and they are held with all goodness, kindness and compassion in mind.
So, that's all I wanted to add. Oh, and also, I think this conversation has been fruitful and when compared to others like it on the internet, it's been conducted beautifully.
Here is one version of it I have never seen before:
The Buddha explained to skeptics how he was able to maintain his compassion.
One day Buddha was walking through a village. A very angry and rude young man came up and began insulting him. "You have no right teaching others," he shouted. "You are as stupid as everyone else. You are nothing but a fake."
Buddha was not upset by these insults. Instead he asked the young man "Tell me, if you buy a gift for someone, and that person does not take it, to whom does the gift belong?"
The man was surprised to be asked such a strange question and answered, "It would belong to me, because I bought the gift."
The Buddha smiled and said, "That is correct. And it is exactly the same with your anger. If you become angry with me and I do not get insulted, then the anger falls back on you. You are then the only one who becomes unhappy, not me. All you have done is hurt yourself.
"If you want to stop hurting yourself, you must get rid of your anger and become loving instead. When you hate others, you yourself become unhappy. But when you love others, everyone is happy."
The young man listened closely to these wise words of the Buddha. "You are right, o Blessed One, "he said. "Please teach me the path of love. I wish to become your follower."
The Buddha answered kindly, "Of course. I teach anyone who truly wants to learn. Come with me." (30)
A man met him on the street one day and began to call him mean and ugly names. Buddha listened quietly and thoughtfully until the man ran out of epithets, and had to pause for breath.
“If you offer something to a man and he refused it, to whom does it belong?” asked Buddha.
The spiteful man replied, “It belongs, I suppose, to the one who offered it.”
Then Buddha said, “The abuse and vile names you offer me, I refuse to accept.”
Both versions beautiful, I think there will be more if you go and look for them, sutch a nice way to teatch sutch a basic lesson, but one that everybody can remember
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yes, but everyone on THIS forum should be following the Eightfold Path!
Not so...
Who is anyone to say what anyone should or should not be doing?
There are many who come and contribute on this forum who are either not Buddhist, or who are not certain where their paths lie.... But to say that "Everyone on THIS forum should be following the Eightfold path" might make some believe that this is an exclusive forum....
All who come - and go - are free to do as they wish...
What I personally feel with regard to post content is that they be Respectful, Courteous, Polite and Dignified....
None of these qualities are specifically Buddhist though.... they are just attributes of consideration and civility.
And anyone who causes offence, will in no doubt be informed. if it was unintentional, there is always an apology, which is nice.
If it is INtentional, or there is no apology, banning can occur.
Which is NOT nice.
But These decisions are not and cannot always be based on Buddhist ethics. Sometimes, they have to be based on plain common-or-garden, bog-standard ordinary "rules" of Social interaction and behaviour.
"So we must have Compassion and Love for the "Sinner"... but on no account should we be willing to stand quietly by, and accept and permit their "Sin" to go without comment...." Federica
I decided to paste this as I wanted it to be exactly as Fede posted it. This is a very sticky problem. One thing that I realize is that I don't know all the variables in a given situation. Sure, if someone on this forum started using fould language and doing name calling, it would be appropriate for any of us to remind the person that it isn't allowed on this forum. If they continue to do so, we will sick BF on them, then Fede, then banning might occur. But that is on a public forum.
The problem becomes when people feel they have the right to comment on other areas that don't apply. I have had people tell me to my face in the past year that they don't "agree" with my lifestyle. ???? Boy, going to work, paying the bills, going to MULTIPLE doctors appointments, and spending time with the love of my life in our home is wrong?? What a deviant I am. I was offended and told him that exact statement. What usually ends up happening is it becomes a war of words that don't make much progress in helping one find enlightenment. I am guilty of defending myself vitriolically at times. But to say that someone can "hate my sin" and "love me as a sinner" is bizarre in my thinking r/t my homosexuality. I could do the same with someone else. I may not know what is really going on so how can I make an accurate assessment as to what I should not agree with? There are some professions that are not considered to be beneficial for enlightenment. But what about a non-buddhist? Do I hate their job but love them? Many people identify with their jobs. So it isn't as easy as it looks.
While I don't agree with Fede on this one, it is her right to hold it. It brings no harm to me. When people use that statement to get their beliefs put into law is when it becomes problematic. It's happening on a regular basis in the U.S. by the statement being put into state constitutions banning same sex marriage.
By the way, Ang Lee did win Best Director for the film! I'm glad he did it!
I think Fede was referring to statements that had been made earlier in this thread regarding someone's discomfiture in seeing two men showing love for each other in a physical way. Someone said that it made them uncomfortable and that they didn't want to see it. I think Fede was saying that this view was somewhat incorrect and hurtful but that we should love the person who held these views even while not agreeing with them.
I hope I'm not out of place or incorrect.
Just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding A.S.A.P.
Love
Brigid
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
Thanks, Brigid, that's about it... perhaps I didn't explain myself very well (the perpetual problem with the written word!) I wasn't referring to love between people (no matter what their gender) I was referring to the 'Wrong' practises of prejudice, separatism, judgement....
Jerbear, I see absolutely nothing wrong with any aspect whatsoever of the relationship you have with your partner. My problem is with those who take a distorted and prejudicial stance on things by condemning outright without fully considering or understanding, or refusing to do same....whatever the situation may be.
i don't know if I can make it any clearer... i hope I've wiped my slate clean....!
I may have to stop posting on this thread as some of the aspects of the discussion are way too personal for me. I brought them up of course. LOL!
I also must say I heard "Hate the sin, Love the sinner" so much that it was my first time to say something about it ever.
Fede, we still love you! If you read my post closely, that's what I've said in that you don't know everything about a situation off the board. That's why I keep my mouth shut a lot of the time as I don't know everything about a person's situation. I can only offer what has worked for me and then I'm still probably not got it right! Hehehehe.
So can we get back to the movie now? Or should we decide that we've beaten this horse quite dead now?
Jerry - yes, let's talk about the movie....how mad were you when it did not win Best Picture?? I was very disappointed. Crash was an excellent movice as well, but nothing like Brokeback Mountain.
A LOT of people are very upset about this. In the media it's been called the Crash Lash, as in backlash. I've read some pretty scathing articles about how Crash didn't deserve the Best Film award and how cowardly Hollywood was. By "Hollywood" I guess they mean the panel of voters.
But Ang Lee did win Best Director and he deserved it. I found that the Oscars were widely dispersed this year and everybody got a little recognition.
I haven't seen Brokeback or Crash yet so when they're available on DVD I'm going to watch them back to back and see for myself. Should be interesting.
With deep respect to Fede, I think that "love the sinner, hate the sin" is often another way of being 'one up': it assumes that we are capable of deeming actions as "sin" - a strange, Jewish-Christian notion.
I think that it is highly unlikely that most people act in 'wrong' ways out of a desire to 'do evil'. When we genuinely love them, we become aware of their drives and motives. Tout comprendre rend très indulgent (Mme de Staël).
Unfortunately, the reality of loving the "sinner" is rarely practised. It is often implied that there will be so much more love available if the action is stopped, altered or repented. This is the love of the marketplace where it is a commodity to trade. Compassion is unconditioned and unconditional, which is why it can appear so terrifying!
I have seen both movies and enjoyed both very much. For me it was a toss-up...
I wonder if perhaps Brokeback didn't get it because it would be assumed it won solely for the touchy subject. Personally, I thought Brokeback was excellant, the cinematography was fabulous. However, as far as the movie as a whole, Crash was a winner. The actors were phenomenal, content was excellant and relevant to today's society. The audience saw a turn of events and emotion in people rather than a 'love story'.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
With deep respect to Fede, I think that "love the sinner, hate the sin" is often another way of being 'one up': it assumes that we are capable of deeming actions as "sin" - a strange, Jewish-Christian notion.
Thank you for your kind approach, Simon... the 'Love the sinner hate the sin' is a fairly common term which I used more as a description of appropriate response,rather than as an accurate exhortation or directive.... But I don't know of another suitable term for describing acts which go against the grain, or comonly held values.... these actions we generally term as incorrect, inadvisable, inappropriate, thoughtless, unskillful....
I wasn't attempting to use the word 'sin' in its Christo-Judaic judgemental sense....
I think that it is highly unlikely that most people act in 'wrong' ways out of a desire to 'do evil'. When we genuinely love them, we become aware of their drives and motives. Tout comprendre rend très indulgent (Mme de Staël).
The drive and motivation is not always the primary factor people look at when they either fall victim, or witness the actions....it's the action itself.... what drives it is a secondary consideration.
Unfortunately, the reality of loving the "sinner" is rarely practised. It is often implied that there will be so much more love available if the action is stopped, altered or repented. This is the love of the marketplace where it is a commodity to trade. Compassion is unconditioned and unconditional, which is why it can appear so terrifying!
All of these posts, Simon's, Sharpigirl's and Fede's were good food for thought.
Simon, you are right for pointing that out and I agree especially with;
I think that it is highly unlikely that most people act in 'wrong' ways out of a desire to 'do evil'. When we genuinely love them, we become aware of their drives and motives. Tout comprendre rend très indulgent (Mme de Staël).
Fede, I understood your use of the whole "sin" "sinner" thing as somewhat tongue in cheek. Hurtful speech, IMHO, needs protesting because silence is the voice of complicity. I didn't much care how you said it, just that you did. Under the circumstances, I really had no problem at all with what you said. I was thinking how much better this type of thought would have been if it had gone into the original hurtful speech to begin with.
Sharpiegirl,
I'm very glad to have your take on these two movies. I've read a few too many angry columns regarding these and I appreciate your fairer minded view. I have a feeling that after I see them back to back, I'll end up agreeing with you (as usual, LOL).
Comments
So...if a person has a view about someone, or a group of individuals, it's ok for that person to voice their opinion, even though it may be terribly hurtful? What about "Right Speech"?? To me, it's not a big deal if someone does not have the same view as me, but if someone openly "bashes" and says hurtful things, how is that ok?
That is precisely the problem, YM. Where, in freedom of speech, does freedom to offend finish and freedom from being offended begin? And who decides?
And words? Where does freedom to say hateful things end?
There are those who hold the opinion that white people are superior to people of colour. That is an opinion. I would waste no time, however, in defending the "right" of that opinion to be expressed in a public forum. If there were a danger that all those who held this opinion were to be rounded up and deprived of their freedom or life, I would protest.
That not being the case here, I would like to remind everyone that there are laws governing the dissemination of hate in public forums. Yes, hate is a strong word and not necessarily the right one for the issue we face here. However, "hurtful" is good enough for me. I don't want anyone hurt in this forum.
The response to hurtful expressions of opinion on this thread have been compassionate. That is more than can be said for the way in which those hurtful comments were expressed in the first place.
The right to express hurtful opinions in a public forum ends at the keyboard.
Some may say this is just my opinion. However, it is also an opinion shared by the governments of Canada, the U.S. and the U.K.
Before we express opinions which may be hurtful to those who are members of this site, I suggest we investigate the skillfulness of those views in the light of the Dharma. If we are unable or unwilling to do so, the solution would be to follow the simple directive of the Buddha himself and refrain from divisive speech.
Brigid
At the end of your tongue.
-bf
People have different levels at which they would begin to be offended.
For example, it takes alot for be to be offended. People are entitled to voice their opinions.
It is up to me how I let them effect me.
If a person chooses to be offensive, I can make an effort to have an intellectual conversation (not debate) with them. I will try to underdstand their point of view, as I would expect them to do the same. If they are endlessly 'ignorant' or we continue to disagree, so be it. Agree to disagree.
But I can't help but think that there is almost too much PC....
We are in a world of how many billions of people????
It is impossible to please everyone.
All I can do is be Mindful of what I do...and take offense to only that which effects me physically.
Like a few of us have already mentioned on this thread...when offensive things were said, we all handled it with respect and compassion, rather than just attacking the person for sharing their views. So really, I don't think any of us got too upset with the comments that were made. We were all just sharing our views on the subject.
It seems to me that, most of the time. when I find that I have a harsh reply I need to make to someone - it's because of what my "ego" or "self" needs to do to heal it's wounds.
I don't think I've read any passages where Buddha or other teachers replied with anger or venom.
At most, they were terse, but did not verbally attack the other person. In many cases, their responses diffused the situation and gave the others something to think about.
I do try to do this. I know we've had the "don't do - try" discussion - but I don't always succeed in biting my tongue and thinking, "is this really worth a response?"
-bf
However, what it offensive to you may not be offensive to me...
I have yet to find offense to anything said in the threads that I read. First, because on a forum like this, I don't think anyone is out to offend. Second, they may not know how to be Mindful and will come "straight out with it". Sure we can advise on Mindfulness, but if they are not open to it.....we could offend them by trying too hard to 'revise' them...
I guess my point is, our society (especially in the US) has become very sensitive to A LOT!
It seems that no one can say anything or express an opinion without offending someone.
And Everybody has a different tolerance level....so I suppose it goes bak to what Simon asked..where does one end and the other begin??
I don't think the answer is as simple as "at the keyboard' or 'at the tip of my tongue". Before you know it, no one will be saying anything out of fear!
I think that 99% of all posts out here are not meant with the intent to hurt - whether we realize that while reading them or not.
I can't agree with your last sentence though... I think that by using the Eightfold Path there will be no reason not to say anything out of fear. Fear will not be what causes us to give pause - but by following the Eightfold Path.
-bf
But like Buddhafoot, I can't agree with your last sentence, for the same reasons that bf stated already.
I wasn't referring just to this forum...but society in general!
sorry, i missed out on making that clear!
Sad but true.
-bf
Yes, but everyone on THIS forum should be following the Eightfold Path!
The Buddha was sitting on a hill meditating, and a man came up to him, swearing and throughing insults at the Buddha. The Buddha looked up and asked the man "if someone gives you a present, and you dont want it, whos is it?" and the man answered " the person that gave it to you" and the Buddha replied "So it is with your insults"
I think it is in a person own mind if he wants to be offended or not. It is like Yogamama said, the world is to big, you cant please everybody, somewhere you are going to insult, or hurt someone, but it is that persons own choice to axcept the insult or not
db
True..but to newcomers just learning....
Excellent lesson that all of us could use.
-bf
I would like to add that the comments in question were not a spewing of vitriolic abuse, unlike the story about the Buddha that Riponcub reminded us of (and I know Buddhafoot loves that story). They were framed in the form of questions to the forum. And we answered, in the light of the Dharma, the Eightfold Path. We answered them with compassion and with Buddhism in mind. If this were a celebrity gossip forum, I'm sure there would be a different level of tolerance for unskillful or hurtful speech. But this is a Dharma board and we're all trying to follow the Eightfold Path and that is what, presumably, new Buddhists come here for. (I keep dangling my participles!)
So, I definitely agree with you, Sharpiegirl, when it comes to the world at large. But there are different expectations and standards here and they are held with all goodness, kindness and compassion in mind.
So, that's all I wanted to add. Oh, and also, I think this conversation has been fruitful and when compared to others like it on the internet, it's been conducted beautifully.
With love,
Brigid
I've been trying to find that story again on the internet and just can't come across it.
Anyone else know where they can find this story?
-bf
The Buddha explained to skeptics how he was able to maintain his compassion.
One day Buddha was walking through a village. A very angry and rude young man came up and began insulting him. "You have no right teaching others," he shouted. "You are as stupid as everyone else. You are nothing but a fake."
Buddha was not upset by these insults. Instead he asked the young man "Tell me, if you buy a gift for someone, and that person does not take it, to whom does the gift belong?"
The man was surprised to be asked such a strange question and answered, "It would belong to me, because I bought the gift."
The Buddha smiled and said, "That is correct. And it is exactly the same with your anger. If you become angry with me and I do not get insulted, then the anger falls back on you. You are then the only one who becomes unhappy, not me. All you have done is hurt yourself.
"If you want to stop hurting yourself, you must get rid of your anger and become loving instead. When you hate others, you yourself become unhappy. But when you love others, everyone is happy."
The young man listened closely to these wise words of the Buddha. "You are right, o Blessed One, "he said. "Please teach me the path of love. I wish to become your follower."
The Buddha answered kindly, "Of course. I teach anyone who truly wants to learn. Come with me." (30)
-bf
A man met him on the street one day and began to call him mean and ugly names. Buddha listened quietly and thoughtfully until the man ran out of epithets, and had to pause for breath.
“If you offer something to a man and he refused it, to whom does it belong?” asked Buddha.
The spiteful man replied, “It belongs, I suppose, to the one who offered it.”
Then Buddha said, “The abuse and vile names you offer me, I refuse to accept.”
The man turned and walked away
-bf
Not so...
Who is anyone to say what anyone should or should not be doing?
There are many who come and contribute on this forum who are either not Buddhist, or who are not certain where their paths lie.... But to say that "Everyone on THIS forum should be following the Eightfold path" might make some believe that this is an exclusive forum....
All who come - and go - are free to do as they wish...
What I personally feel with regard to post content is that they be Respectful, Courteous, Polite and Dignified....
None of these qualities are specifically Buddhist though.... they are just attributes of consideration and civility.
And anyone who causes offence, will in no doubt be informed. if it was unintentional, there is always an apology, which is nice.
If it is INtentional, or there is no apology, banning can occur.
Which is NOT nice.
But These decisions are not and cannot always be based on Buddhist ethics. Sometimes, they have to be based on plain common-or-garden, bog-standard ordinary "rules" of Social interaction and behaviour.
Thank you.
I have finished now.
Carry on.....
Kim
http://www.utah.edu/stc/tai-chi/stories.html#12
That site kept me busy for a while reading every story on there, a few hard lessons we all can do with learning in there
I decided to paste this as I wanted it to be exactly as Fede posted it. This is a very sticky problem. One thing that I realize is that I don't know all the variables in a given situation. Sure, if someone on this forum started using fould language and doing name calling, it would be appropriate for any of us to remind the person that it isn't allowed on this forum. If they continue to do so, we will sick BF on them, then Fede, then banning might occur. But that is on a public forum.
The problem becomes when people feel they have the right to comment on other areas that don't apply. I have had people tell me to my face in the past year that they don't "agree" with my lifestyle. ???? Boy, going to work, paying the bills, going to MULTIPLE doctors appointments, and spending time with the love of my life in our home is wrong?? What a deviant I am. I was offended and told him that exact statement. What usually ends up happening is it becomes a war of words that don't make much progress in helping one find enlightenment. I am guilty of defending myself vitriolically at times. But to say that someone can "hate my sin" and "love me as a sinner" is bizarre in my thinking r/t my homosexuality. I could do the same with someone else. I may not know what is really going on so how can I make an accurate assessment as to what I should not agree with? There are some professions that are not considered to be beneficial for enlightenment. But what about a non-buddhist? Do I hate their job but love them? Many people identify with their jobs. So it isn't as easy as it looks.
While I don't agree with Fede on this one, it is her right to hold it. It brings no harm to me. When people use that statement to get their beliefs put into law is when it becomes problematic. It's happening on a regular basis in the U.S. by the statement being put into state constitutions banning same sex marriage.
By the way, Ang Lee did win Best Director for the film! I'm glad he did it!
I think Fede was referring to statements that had been made earlier in this thread regarding someone's discomfiture in seeing two men showing love for each other in a physical way. Someone said that it made them uncomfortable and that they didn't want to see it. I think Fede was saying that this view was somewhat incorrect and hurtful but that we should love the person who held these views even while not agreeing with them.
I hope I'm not out of place or incorrect.
Just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding A.S.A.P.
Love
Brigid
Jerbear, I see absolutely nothing wrong with any aspect whatsoever of the relationship you have with your partner. My problem is with those who take a distorted and prejudicial stance on things by condemning outright without fully considering or understanding, or refusing to do same....whatever the situation may be.
i don't know if I can make it any clearer... i hope I've wiped my slate clean....!
I also must say I heard "Hate the sin, Love the sinner" so much that it was my first time to say something about it ever.
Fede, we still love you! If you read my post closely, that's what I've said in that you don't know everything about a situation off the board. That's why I keep my mouth shut a lot of the time as I don't know everything about a person's situation. I can only offer what has worked for me and then I'm still probably not got it right! Hehehehe.
So can we get back to the movie now? Or should we decide that we've beaten this horse quite dead now?
Absolutely! I guess my choice of words was wrong. I really am very appreciative of you broadening my view on this subject.
But Ang Lee did win Best Director and he deserved it. I found that the Oscars were widely dispersed this year and everybody got a little recognition.
I haven't seen Brokeback or Crash yet so when they're available on DVD I'm going to watch them back to back and see for myself. Should be interesting.
Brigid
I think that it is highly unlikely that most people act in 'wrong' ways out of a desire to 'do evil'. When we genuinely love them, we become aware of their drives and motives. Tout comprendre rend très indulgent (Mme de Staël).
Unfortunately, the reality of loving the "sinner" is rarely practised. It is often implied that there will be so much more love available if the action is stopped, altered or repented. This is the love of the marketplace where it is a commodity to trade. Compassion is unconditioned and unconditional, which is why it can appear so terrifying!
I wonder if perhaps Brokeback didn't get it because it would be assumed it won solely for the touchy subject. Personally, I thought Brokeback was excellant, the cinematography was fabulous. However, as far as the movie as a whole, Crash was a winner. The actors were phenomenal, content was excellant and relevant to today's society. The audience saw a turn of events and emotion in people rather than a 'love story'.
Thank you for your kind approach, Simon... the 'Love the sinner hate the sin' is a fairly common term which I used more as a description of appropriate response,rather than as an accurate exhortation or directive.... But I don't know of another suitable term for describing acts which go against the grain, or comonly held values.... these actions we generally term as incorrect, inadvisable, inappropriate, thoughtless, unskillful....
I wasn't attempting to use the word 'sin' in its Christo-Judaic judgemental sense....
The drive and motivation is not always the primary factor people look at when they either fall victim, or witness the actions....it's the action itself.... what drives it is a secondary consideration.
can't argue with that one....!!
Simon, you are right for pointing that out and I agree especially with;
Fede, I understood your use of the whole "sin" "sinner" thing as somewhat tongue in cheek. Hurtful speech, IMHO, needs protesting because silence is the voice of complicity. I didn't much care how you said it, just that you did. Under the circumstances, I really had no problem at all with what you said. I was thinking how much better this type of thought would have been if it had gone into the original hurtful speech to begin with.
Sharpiegirl,
I'm very glad to have your take on these two movies. I've read a few too many angry columns regarding these and I appreciate your fairer minded view. I have a feeling that after I see them back to back, I'll end up agreeing with you (as usual, LOL).
Love,
Brigid