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Ron Paul

edited October 2011 in General Banter
I think we have the right guy finally...
«1

Comments

  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    I haven't disclosed this information on NewBuddhist yet, but I'm a secret Ron Paul supporter. Shhh...
  • @mindgate *secret ron paul handshake*
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    A poll was done in 2010 about who the Americans would vote for in 2012. 42% Obama 41% Ron Paul
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    lol 'stand up and beg for justice'
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Wait, isn't he too old?
    He is older than MCain? I don't get it?
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran


    "These clips don't reveal the real truth: Fox news not only spun it, they lied. They originally played the 2010 poll result announcement at the end of CPAC. That clip had some boos and some cheers. Later Fox said it was a "mistake" and played the 2011 poll results in which there was overwhelming cheering. This video shows the SPIN, but not the LIE. Check other youtube videos."
  • Sorry, but Ron Paul is just another teabagger who is good at packaging his stuff in a populist package. He's at least as frightening as any of the other GOP right wing whack jobs in my book. Possibly more so.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    IMO the right wing spin machine downplays Ron Paul because he actually believes what he says and they're afraid he'll take away their power too.

    Having said that I don't want to live in the world Ron Paul envisions. To me it sounds like everyone for themselves.
  • I aagree with Mountains. Just looking at his posistion on a few key pionts seems to show that vid is just a nicly packaged turd. I think he would just be another teabagger pushing their Ideology on everyone. I know how I feel about guns, and I do believe we should be looking for alternative fuel. Things just dont match up to what I think would be a best choice.
    http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2011
    Sorry, but Ron Paul is just another teabagger who is good at packaging his stuff in a populist package. He's at least as frightening as any of the other GOP right wing whack jobs in my book. Possibly more so.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. He's been saying the same exact thing for the past 40 years, regardless if it is "popular" or not. :) NONE of the other "teabaggers" are anti-war activists...
  • He's still far, far, very far to the right on most issues. I don't disagree with everything he says, but there's absolutely *no* way on earth I'd ever vote for him.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Trust me, I don't think Ron Paul is the greatest candidate either, but look at the rest.

    There's status quo Obama,
    bat-shit crazy Perry and Bachmann,
    bigotted-middle class hating-never had a government job Cain,
    boring status quo Romney,
    Santorum (lol),
    turd of a human Newt 'Gangrenous' Gingrich,
    and the rest no one cares about and don't have a chance at winning.

    So, best choice? I say either Obama or Paul. No matter what, though, we seem screwed.
  • I'm certainly not happy with everything Obama has done (or rather, not done things he promised to do), but of the available choices, there's Obama, and then several hundred light years away in next closest place, any of the GOP candidates, including Ron Paul. Obama's accomplishments in the first part of his administration were by any historical measure impressive (health care reform, etc). He's suffering from most of the same ills as any newbie first term President - trying to navigate the minefields that are Washington, while in his case now trying to deal with the single worst Congress we've ever had the misfortune to create in this country. Is he "status quo"? Not really. He would love to break out and so some real change, but as usual, the Party Of No (PON aka GOP) squashes any and everything that comes from the White House simply because it comes from the White House. There's no analysis of merits and demerits of an idea, it is simply dismissed out of hand because the President likes it.

    Would it be any different with any of the GOP? Only if (which is likely to be the case) both houses of Congress are firmly in GOP hands. If that happened, as happened in 2002, all hell would break loose, and what little bit of sanity might remain would evaporate. I fear where the country would go if that were the case. Only the veto pen in Obama's hand between now and 2016 really stands a chance of keeping the US from plunging into corporate run theocracy.

    So the choice is pretty clear to me. I'm not happy with him 100%, but I'm not going to have to hold my nose and vote for him either.
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    The democrats and republicans are exactly the same, while each may pander to their base, they grow government, involve us in stupid wars, change nothing and are only concerned about getting re-elected. They are two sides of the same coin. Is Ron Paul the answer, I don't know, but the current situation is pretty sad.
  • B5CB5C Veteran
    Ron Paul is not the answer because he will kill that FDR gave us. Social Security and such.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Who do you guys think is going to win the primary? As much as I dislike the guy, I'd probably say Romney.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited October 2011
    The democrats and republicans are exactly the same, while each may pander to their base, they grow government, involve us in stupid wars, change nothing and are only concerned about getting re-elected. They are two sides of the same coin. Is Ron Paul the answer, I don't know, but the current situation is pretty sad.
    I disagree on a fundamental level, if not on a practical level. There is still a very fundamental difference between the right and the left. The right is only concerned with having the rich grow richer and corporate profits increase at any cost (human, environmental, etc). The left, while very screwed up, is at heart concerned with the welfare of the majority of people, not in making corporate bottom lines look better.

    This is why the right is concerned with rolling back anything that even resembles an environmental regulation (they're too expensive for corporations!), while the left does things like passing a health care overhaul package. So you can't realistically say they're the same, because they're simply not. That's just a way of copping out IMHO.
  • Ron Paul is essentially a libertarian running on the Republican ticket, ala Barry Goldwater.

    Just as Republicans have used the Southern Strategy to distract voters and attract voters with social issues, Ron Paul gets attention in a similar way, but with a different set of voters. He's not even actually anti-war-- he's an isolationist (and, yes, there's a big difference). Behind all that rhetoric, Ron Paul is just another conservative pushing the Overton Window yet even further to the right.
  • Bingo
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    A poll was done in 2010 about who the Americans would vote for in 2012. 42% Obama 41% Ron Paul
    3/4ths of statistics are made up. :)
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    he had me until i found out he was vehemently pro-life. abortion issues aside, he believes that the government should not support planned parenthood. without them, i cannot afford pap/cancer screenings since my insurance does not support "women's health" as they call it. he has no idea how many women depend on them for things that AREN'T abortions. sad.
  • He had me until I found out he was vehemently pro-life. That he would allow the states to pass laws enabling discrimination against certain groups of people. Until I found out that he was a gold standard shill (who happens to be heavily invested in gold mining operations, imagine that). Until I found out that he would dismantle the thing that I depend on for the meager living that I do have. Until I found out that he, in a nutshell, favors a Christian theocracy. Until I found he favors allowing juries to ignore the law when reaching verdicts. There's a lot about Ron Paul that would scare the shit out me were he not such a marginal candidate.

  • The right is only concerned with having the rich grow richer and corporate profits increase at any cost (human, environmental, etc).

    The left, while very screwed up, is at heart concerned with the welfare of the majority of people, not in making corporate bottom lines look better.

    Lol, not the most even-handed summary of the political wings.


    A right-winger would probably just reverse your characterization as follows:

    "The left hates America, destroys the family and eschews personal responsibility.

    "The right, as flawed as it is, loves America, supports the family and encourages personal responsibility."
  • When I initially heard of Ron Paul, I actually thought that here, finally, was a Republican I could relate to. Then, back in May, he had to tell Chris Matthews that he wouldn't have voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act because of the "property rights element". Businesses should be able to discriminate as they wish. It became clear that he was either a total corporate shill, or a racist. It turns out that he's had quite a history of running racist editorials in his newsletters.
    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/211823/20110911/ron-paul-racism-anti-semitism-republican.ht
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Hmmm, maybe I'm a racist, but I believe businesses should be able to discriminate as they wish. It is their store and they should be allowed to do whatever they want. If they want to turn away business and potential workers, then let them. As long as they don't physically hurt anyone, go ahead. Don't people do this now anyways? Like, if you've been in prison people they can discriminate against you and not let you get a job there. And don't clubs kind of do that now anyways? Don't let certain people come in and others not? Meh. *shrug* Maybe my opinion will change over time.
  • You might want to Google "Jim Crow"...

  • Discriminating because of clothing, appearance (such as hygiene, etc), criminal background, etc is a bit different from discriminating because of skin color.
  • Hmmm, maybe I'm a racist, but I believe businesses should be able to discriminate as they wish.
    If that's what you actually believe, then yes, you are a racist. That's the definition of racism.
  • Lol, not the most even-handed summary of the political wings.


    A right-winger would probably just reverse your characterization as follows:

    "The left hates America, destroys the family and eschews personal responsibility.

    "The right, as flawed as it is, loves America, supports the family and encourages personal responsibility."
    I don't see how either of those is true. How does the left "destroy the family"? By allowing homosexuals to marry? How does that destroy anything (I've had this argument over and over and over). How does it "eschew personal responsibility"? Concrete examples? By providing a social safety net? Don't get it.

    The right "loves America"? More than the left? More than I do? I don't think so. It's the politics of faux-patriotism that have us so screwed up. The right doesn't have the lock on love of country. It "supports the family"? How exactly? By discouraging abortion, thus increasing unwanted, unloved children? Forcing so-called "Christian" morality down everyone's throat? It encourages personal responsibility? If that's the case, how come there's such a horribly low level of personal responsibility (that I see each and every single day at work) among those who most strongly support the right?

    Sorry, arguments don't wash...
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited October 2011
    Hmmm, maybe I'm a racist, but I believe businesses should be able to discriminate as they wish.
    If that's what you actually believe, then yes, you are a racist. That's the definition of racism.
    Definition of racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

    Well, I don't believe that... so I don't believe I'm a racist then. But apparently I'm a racist because I believe that citizens have the right to be racist as long as they don't harm or harass anyone...?

    Trust me, I think that discrimination based on race is stupid, but I believe people have the right to do that if they so want to as long as they aren't harassing/harming anyone. The government doesn't have the right to, but I think private business owners and the average Joe can if they so do please.
  • So Jim Crow laws didn't hurt anyone? Sundown towns? You don't have to dig back that far in US history to see what this sort of discrimination is really about. (I'm not saying you're a racist, @Mindgate, I'm just saying you haven't really examined the consequences of what you're saying).
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited October 2011
    So Jim Crow laws didn't hurt anyone? Sundown towns? You don't have to dig back that far in US history to see what this sort of discrimination is really about. (I'm not saying you're a racist, @Mindgate, I'm just saying you haven't really examined the consequences of what you're saying).
    They were LAWS enacted by the GOVERNMENT. I government can't sanction discrimination, but people can do whatever they want if they own a PRIVATE business.
  • Hmmm, maybe I'm a racist, but I believe businesses should be able to discriminate as they wish.
    If that's what you actually believe, then yes, you are a racist. That's the definition of racism.
    Definition of racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

    Well, I don't believe that... so I don't believe I'm a racist then. But apparently I'm a racist because I believe that citizens have the right to be racist as long as they don't harm or harass anyone...?

    Trust me, I think that discrimination based on race is stupid, but I believe people have the right to do that if they so want to as long as they aren't harassing/harming anyone. The government doesn't have the right to, but I think private business owners and the average Joe can if they so do please.
    I'd say that telling someone that because of the color of their skin they can't eat at your establishment, or they have to order from a separate counter and take their food outside to eat is is harassing them.

  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Hmmm, maybe I'm a racist, but I believe businesses should be able to discriminate as they wish.
    If that's what you actually believe, then yes, you are a racist. That's the definition of racism.
    Definition of racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

    Well, I don't believe that... so I don't believe I'm a racist then. But apparently I'm a racist because I believe that citizens have the right to be racist as long as they don't harm or harass anyone...?

    Trust me, I think that discrimination based on race is stupid, but I believe people have the right to do that if they so want to as long as they aren't harassing/harming anyone. The government doesn't have the right to, but I think private business owners and the average Joe can if they so do please.
    I'd say that telling someone that because of the color of their skin they can't eat at your establishment, or they have to order from a separate counter and take their food outside to eat is is harassing them.

    No offense, StaticToybox, but that is an awfully weak argument. If someone came onto YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY and you did not want them there, would asking them to leave be considered harassment? This is pretty much what this is.
  • They were LAWS enacted by the GOVERNMENT. I government can't sanction discrimination, but people can do whatever they want if they own a PRIVATE business.
    Jim Crow laws also ALLOWED private businesses to discriminate. The government did not dictate to all businesses who they could and could not serve-- rather, the government turned a blind eye to businesses that discriminated against African Americans.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited October 2011
    They were LAWS enacted by the GOVERNMENT. I government can't sanction discrimination, but people can do whatever they want if they own a PRIVATE business.
    Jim Crow laws also ALLOWED private businesses to discriminate. The government did not dictate to all businesses who they could and could not serve-- rather, the government turned a blind eye to businesses that discriminated against African Americans.
    Wikipedia said schools, public spaces and the military were segregated. I thought those were government bodies?
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    I don't feel like debating any more. Nevermind about what I said.
  • Hmmm, maybe I'm a racist, but I believe businesses should be able to discriminate as they wish.
    If that's what you actually believe, then yes, you are a racist. That's the definition of racism.
    Definition of racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

    Well, I don't believe that... so I don't believe I'm a racist then. But apparently I'm a racist because I believe that citizens have the right to be racist as long as they don't harm or harass anyone...?

    Trust me, I think that discrimination based on race is stupid, but I believe people have the right to do that if they so want to as long as they aren't harassing/harming anyone. The government doesn't have the right to, but I think private business owners and the average Joe can if they so do please.
    I'd say that telling someone that because of the color of their skin they can't eat at your establishment, or they have to order from a separate counter and take their food outside to eat is is harassing them.

    No offense, StaticToybox, but that is an awfully weak argument. If someone came onto YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY and you did not want them there, would asking them to leave be considered harassment? This is pretty much what this is.
    A public business is not private property in the sense that my home is.

    By the way: typing words in all capital letters does not make your argument stronger. It only looks like you're shouting.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited October 2011
    Idiots, my god. I'm done posting. Screw this.
    I put all caps to emphasize things that I believe should be emphasized rather than manually typing out code to bold it or underline it or whatever. Its just like highlighting, but since Lincoln hasn't fixed the bugs for the comment poster box thing where I can just press a button to make things bold, I will just capitalize things rather than typing out a bunch of code. But ya know what? Fuck it. I don't care.

    some_text
  • So, um, bye then?
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited October 2011
    @MindGate don't be mad. just take some time to meditate on it. you're young and we're all learning, it's nothing to be ashamed of. i can see your point, but i don't think that america is ready for it yet. just imagine that you're a home owner who is struggling to make ends meet, and very suddenly, your roof begins to leak. you know you need some work done, but roofing repairs can be costly, so you do some research and call around. you find the best deal in town and make an appointment to meet with the guy for an appraisal. the roofer shows up and instantly says, "oh, i'm sorry, i don't do business with white people." it's not appropriate nor acceptable for people to behave this way.
    perhaps someday america won't need these laws on the books anymore, but as is, you can't treat people like that. with options, it sounds okay, but what about businesses like the water or electric company (there's no alternative)? or privately owned schools? if you repeal the laws for one, you repeal the laws for all. keeping them on the books is a preemptive strike against extreme unfairness. suppose that guy at the electric company is a total racist, how else could you live?
  • edited October 2011
    he had me until i found out he was vehemently pro-life. abortion issues aside, he believes that the government should not support planned parenthood. without them, i cannot afford pap/cancer screenings since my insurance does not support "women's health" as they call it. he has no idea how many women depend on them for things that AREN'T abortions. sad.

    Ron Paul is personally anti-abortion, but finds a happy medium between the pro-lifers and the pro-choicers in making abortion (and ALL OTHER SOCIAL MATTERS) a states matter. The country will remain divided on the issue of abortion for an untold amount of time... don't like our laws, move to another state. Simple as that. Personally, I think abortion should be the last thing on our minds during the 2012 election season, with the ENDLESS wars and debt crisis and myriad other problems that have absolutely nothing to do with the right to choose.

    The insurance issue is a lot more complex than you make it out to be, and I recommend that you take a little time to investigate it. Here's an article: http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/health-care/
  • @MindGate don't be mad. just take some time to meditate on it. you're young and we're all learning, it's nothing to be ashamed of. i can see your point, but i don't think that america is ready for it yet. just imagine that you're a home owner who is struggling to make ends meet, and very suddenly, your roof begins to leak. you know you need some work done, but roofing repairs can be costly, so you do some research and call around. you find the best deal in town and make an appointment to meet with the guy for an appraisal. the roofer shows up and instantly says, "oh, i'm sorry, i don't do business with white people." it's not appropriate nor acceptable for people to behave this way.
    perhaps someday america won't need these laws on the books anymore, but as is, you can't treat people like that. with options, it sounds okay, but what about businesses like the water or electric company (there's no alternative)? or privately owned schools? if you repeal the laws for one, you repeal the laws for all. keeping them on the books is a preemptive strike against extreme unfairness. suppose that guy at the electric company is a total racist, how else could you live?
    I'm sorry, @zombiegirl, but I can see discrimination based on race as being bad for business. That seems like an issue that would work itself out.
  • I read his book "End the Fed" after seeing him on The Daily Show and being intrigued.
    About half way through the book he kinda had me (on the gold reserve issue), but by the end I just thought "end this book", not the Fed.

    He's not so much far-right as extreme liberalist. Not as bad as they can get, relatively civil and doesn't stoop to personal attacks as some Fox-types do, and certainly principled because he's stuck to guns for decades (often against as much criticism from republicans as democrats), so I have a certain level of grudging respect for him. But if I was American and voting, he still wouldn't get mine.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited October 2011
    he had me until i found out he was vehemently pro-life. abortion issues aside, he believes that the government should not support planned parenthood. without them, i cannot afford pap/cancer screenings since my insurance does not support "women's health" as they call it. he has no idea how many women depend on them for things that AREN'T abortions. sad.

    Ron Paul is personally anti-abortion, but finds a happy medium between the pro-lifers and the pro-choicers in making abortion (and ALL OTHER SOCIAL MATTERS) a states matter. The country will remain divided on the issue of abortion for an untold amount of time... don't like our laws, move to another state. Simple as that. Personally, I think abortion should be the last thing on our minds during the 2012 election season, with the ENDLESS wars and debt crisis and myriad other problems that have absolutely nothing to do with the right to choose.

    The insurance issue is a lot more complex than you make it out to be, and I recommend that you take a little time to investigate it. Here's an article: http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/health-care/
    from ronpaul2012.com:

    "As an OB/GYN who delivered over 4,000 babies, Ron Paul knows firsthand how precious, fragile, and in need of protection life is.

    Dr. Paul’s experience in science and medicine only reinforced his belief that life begins at conception, and he believes it would be inconsistent for him to champion personal liberty and a free society if he didn’t also advocate respecting the God-given right to life—for those born and unborn.

    After being forced to witness an abortion being performed during his time in medical school, he knew from that moment on that his practice would focus on protecting life. And during his years in medicine, never once did he find an abortion necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman.

    As a physician, Ron Paul consistently put his beliefs into practice and saved lives by helping women seek options other than abortion, including adoption. And as President, Ron Paul will continue to fight for the same pro-life solutions he has upheld in Congress, including:

    * Immediately saving lives by effectively repealing Roe v. Wade and preventing activist judges from interfering with state decisions on life by removing abortion from federal court jurisdiction through legislation modeled after his “We the People Act.”

    * Defining life as beginning at conception by passing a “Sanctity of Life Act.”

    Because he agrees with Thomas Jefferson that it is “sinful and tyrannical” to “compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors,” Ron Paul will also protect the American people’s freedom of conscience by working to prohibit taxpayer funds from being used for abortions, Planned Parenthood, or any other so-called “family planning” program.

    The strength of love for liberty in our society can be judged by how we treat the most innocent among us. It’s time to elect a President with the courage and conviction to stand up for every American’s right to life."

    that doesn't sound much like what you describe. also, i don't understand how i'm making the insurance thing sound too simple when i called my insurance agency because i needed a pap smear and they told me, "women's health services are not covered." i wasn't talking about universal health care at all, just the fact that the end of his blurb on abortion(from his website) mentions that he wishes to pull funding from PP. i was bringing up insurance because mine sucks and i don't want to see that happen to PP or i will lose my women's health provider. i have a lot of female cancers in my family so this is sorta important to me.

    at the present, i don't have any reason to believe that ron paul is the answer to american's problems. i'm still on the fence about it all, and i do plan on watching the debates (as i do every election), but there are certain things that can be a deal breaker to me. it's not a definite, but he'd have to be pretty fantastic to make me change my mind.
  • Well, I don't believe that... so I don't believe I'm a racist then. But apparently I'm a racist because I believe that citizens have the right to be racist as long as they don't harm or harass anyone...?
    How does that neither harm nor harass you if I tell you you can't come into my place of business because of the color of your skin, your gender, your nationality, your sexual orientation, or your brand of toothpaste?

    It's not up to you to decide for everyone else what is or isn't 'harm' or 'harassment'. That's why we have courts and laws, and what your OP said is racism, regardless of what you claim to believe.
  • edited October 2011
    the present, i don't have any reason to believe that ron paul is the answer to american's problems. i'm still on the fence about it all, and i do plan on watching the debates (as i do every election), but there are certain things that can be a deal breaker to me. it's not a definite, but he'd have to be pretty fantastic to make me change my mind.
    Ron Paul has said that he doesn't agree with signing executive orders because it undermines Congress and the decisions of the People. Roe v. Wade couldn't be overturned overnight. At any rate, I don't see universal health care or insurance or abortion as key issues AT ALL in this election season. What you're effectively saying is that you would vote for someone who stood with you on YOUR key issues, even if they supported the endless foreign wars, reckless spending, and economic death march that comprise the status quo.

  • Ron Paul is personally anti-abortion, but finds a happy medium between the pro-lifers and the pro-choicers in making abortion (and ALL OTHER SOCIAL MATTERS) a states matter.
    The whole concept of which I find ridiculous. We're getting back to the arguments of the early part of our history, which we ended up in a civil war to resolve. It's federal vs. states' rights. I don't know about you, but I consider myself a citizen of *The* (not "these") United States of America who happens to reside in a place called Virginia. I am *not* a Virginian who resides in a loose confederation of 49 other states that we call the USA. That's the difference.

    Having 50 sets of rules, regulations, laws, norms, mores, and values means we're no longer one country. We're 50 little Balkan states who can't get along with one another. We fought one war, what's to say we won't fight another over matters such as abortion, taxation, immigration, etc, etc? Sadly, I feel pretty sure we eventually will.
  • What you're effectively saying is that you would vote for someone who stood with you on YOUR key issues, even if they supported the endless foreign wars and reckless spending that comprise the status quo.
    It's not that black or white I'm afraid. That's the problem in this country - everybody wants to see the world in pure black and pure white (especially the right...). If I could design my own perfect candidate, he or she wouldn't look at all like Ron Paul, and only a little like Barack Obama. That doesn't mean I'm not going to live in the real world and vote for the person who most closely represents the way I feel about the majority of issues. I'm not happy with endless wars. But I'm less happy with the other things Ron Paul and the others on the right stand for.

    So yes, I'm going to vote for the person who stands with me on MY key issues, and put up with the rest. Until a better system comes along, I don't really see any other choice, do you?

    And BTW, 'reckless spending' is very much a matter of definition. Don't be sucked in by the media hype. Do a little independent research on the facts.
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