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Gross Mind and Subtle Mind in Rebirth
person
Don't believe everything you thinkThe liminal space Veteran
Tsem Tulku talks about what is the gross mind, what is the subtle mind and how they relate to rebirth. There's also some stuff about these minds in regards to tantric sex.
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I was watching this and 2 of my teens walked in the room, while I was sharpening my 'weapon' ! (Love the perseverance behind that intention!)
They said..."Wow...he is dynamic!"
We all stayed and watched the rest.
His energy jumps out and it was the first time grossed mind was explained to me like that.
His statements on merit and compassion also got some nods from the older teen.
I took the opportunity to discuss 'rough habits' with them, too.
Thanks again. Ill look up more of his stuff.
This is a in depth book detailing the nature of the mind and its components other sources can be found on the internet !
So, I guess I am sceptical and whilst this is standard fare, as the evangelistic taking of doctrine as fact is not uncommon, but many Tibetans are not like this eg HHDL for whom I have great respect.
I'm not sure teaching dharma without direct experience qualifies as lying though.
It also speaks to the core issue of our secular age, a time in which religious truths are many and some call them delusion. So, by what authority can we decide between any two views? On what basis do we trust knowledge as being true knowledge, or is everything relative? Truth for Christians, truth for Buddhists, etc.
How do we challenge what might be false views? Without abdicating to what the Buddha said aka Kalama Sutta - which may have not been his words anyway.
When really you just observed tension.
Sex is part of our Buddha nature, so it has always been open talk at my house.
Growing up and now in my home too.
Note, I said older...so yes, the mechanics had already been explained.
I have raised them Buddhist. One is going Zen. One went PureLand.
So ....the tantric sex stuff has made for delightful conversations.
Both giggled of course....but the overall message, Buddha's message, was still getting thru. They know the intent.
They said he is on FB and Twitter...so. Buddha Youth is good.
Sorry @Persons for jacking the thread. You know Im your number 1 fan !
I could elaborate, but this returns us back to my last comment. How can anyone judge? By what authority, can I make such a claim? Who am I? Do I hold a lineage place, does my lineage count, am I a woman, a lay person, etc...
On the otherhand, what consistency should we expect between high states and a teacher's presentation in everyday life? I place a lot of importance on this and I think this is not unreasonable. And if something doesn't accord with my experience, is it right action to remain silent? I did not think, it spoke to me as a whole, like an answer to Mu, and I felt that some response was needed to break the spell, knowing it may not sit well with some people.
Perhaps I am attached to truth.
These are all interesting questions, I am very curious about how we can make judgements about Buddhist claims.
With his explanation and your understanding combined perhaps gross mind dreams are the brain function driven sleep patterns ones experienced earlier in the night (so maybe your gross mind is in deep sleep and cannot perceive your subtle mind) - but in the final phase before you awake, perhaps your gross mind has arisen a little so can perceive your subtle mind (though the subtle mind itself is not the dream, your gross mind interprets it as dreams at that period and you carry through to waking consciousness)
I think I just made up a theory out of thin air....
Regarding teaching without direct realization of that teaching. A teacher with realization of the teaching is much preferred as there is a type of transmission that occurs on a more subtle level than the words. I'm not that educated into zen but isn't the sutra where Buddha twirls a flower and Maha-Kashapa smiles at the heart of what zen is about? In TB lineage and proper intellectual understanding are somewhat seperate from meditative experience. Students undergo many years, up to 20+, of learning and debate and then undergo final examinations before they graduate and are able to go off on their own to teach. Many undergo a longterm meditation retreat too, 3+ years, 12-20 hours a day.
I spent a year in India when Muktananda and Rajneesh were around. I visited both and noticed how anyone who questioned what was going on around Rajneesh got the It's your EGO rapp. And with Muktananda, what struck me was how often people who raised very legitimate concerns about his behaviour, such as holding someones hands in boiling water, were told they were projecting stuff. If someone said Baba M was angry and abusive, they were told they projecting and that Baba was simply using skilful means to compassionately take on that person's bad kama. If we accept that Siddha's operate on a higher plane and are beyond the temporal laws (and reality), we can't say a thing, unless they do something that is so bad that it is self evident - such as abusing young girls.
Expert paramedics tend to make instant decisions based on their appraisal of the whole situation and seem to omit the steps inbetween. Having spent a life time studying and meeting with different teachers in different traditions and reflecting on my own practice, I think there are some behavioural correlates with very deep insight and what I saw in that video did not correspond with my experience.
You are free to trust or not trust any given guru. But you can't know what their realization is in any other way than by listening to their teaching. I never said that the speaker was beyond any reproach.
Well my approach is to listen to what someone says. Mannerisms don't convey all the information because we might innacurately assess them. In my experience as a dharma paramedic that teacher was animated not stressed. And Gangaji is also teaching something with her pauses rather. Everyone has their own style. So on that point we disagree.
For me style is less important than content.
I only ask because I have found it helps the conversation if the termonology remains in common.
"Sex and Buddism" is an excellant read. Especially for a Lay/Householder. If the subject is Sex.
Buddhism and Sex
I think one thing we can be sure of is that the majority of Buddhist traditions don't teach seminal retention as the path to Enlightenment, right?
ah I am being facetious..
it is true that Tibetan buddhism is alone at least in my knowledge. I think taoism involves some sexual practice? and then of course theres corruption which has nothing to do with teaching a dharma practice imo
P.S. I like Tsem Tulku's style.
So yeah. Orgasms. We got 'em and what do we do with 'em?
Either remain silent and let beginners find out for themselves what are the consequences of buying into this style of teaching.
OR Say something...
Having read the first few comments and curiously watched the video, I decided that I should speak up and challenge the authority by which the "unmistaken" Tsem Rimpoche speaks - which I strongly suspect is just doctrine, but was presented as fact and implicitly known via experience.
Zen practice requires student to make a presentation of the dharma. Eg. What is the sound of one hand? What one says is of course important, but how one says it is also important. In Japan and China, ancient teachers were very adept at knowing where someones practice was by how they walked or even how they coughed. So this is not as far out, as you think Jeffery, but your concern is justifiable as it is a subjective judgement.
Having meditated on this, I noticed a subtle clinging to saving others - I have not fully realised that all beings are saved from the very beginning - but then why leave the Bodhi tree? Does anyone have something to say on this?
My only point, J, was that to learn and practice the technique of retaining the semen, which Tsem Tulku discusses, it takes a consort. And so often I've been told that the Gelug don't practice that. But now we know they do. That's all. There are some valid points here, but I don't see what this has to do with Tsem Tulku's presentation. I didn't see anything wrong with it as far as style and "right view" are concerned. We may not agree with a point here and there, but these are standard teachings, I think. Does he come across as dogmatic, is that the objection?
Jeffrey, this is my point, if knowledge was just about content, then I would totally agree with you and hopefully not press your buttons. But I think we are learning that after Michele Foucault that the context of knowledge is important, there are the microprocesses of power which set up legitimacy of a narrative and that can subvert rationality, so it is important HOW WE SAY THINGS (Caps for example).
Power follows from our casual acceptance of the "reality with which we are presented." In a secular age, people like Dawkins are trying to tell us something, his mistake is to have a strawman view of religion that is a fixed, but they make important points about how people so can so easily be deluded. In my view, this video was more than dogmatic, and rather more demagogic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogy.
So, I think that it is not just the teachings that need scrutiny but includes: scrutiny of how they are taught, of the potential for legitimate questioning; how power being manifested symbolically; and what micros practices colour the narrative. This is without even touching on the dharmic dimension, which is a new frontier, and in Asia, there is a culture of not speaking about it. I think that to learn we need to break that and other taboos, but despite my experience, I am also a beginner and your comments are helpful, thanks.