morality and religion?

genkaku

True, false, maybe...?

federica

Not necessarily.....

vinlyn

Whether one agrees, or not, with every teaching of a particular religion is one thing.
But when I see statements like the one in the "poster", I can understand why people like Gingritch can twist things to make others seem anti-religion.

The problem with the "morality is doing what is right..." mantra is that there is no standard. It can be very much, "do your own thing". The various religions -- including Buddhism -- set down some standards. They still provide you with a degree of freedom in accepting or rejecting those standards...as we have proven on this website as different folks express their differences on, for example, the 5 Precepts.

Zero

I'm not really feeling that poster!

Iktomi

False. Some are just inclined to do as they are told, and others inclined to tell others what to do.

Iktomi

The problem with the "morality is doing what is right..." mantra is that there is no standard. It can be very much, "do your own thing". The various religions -- including Buddhism -- set down some standards. They still provide you with a degree of freedom in accepting or rejecting those standards...as we have proven on this website as different folks express their differences on, for example, the 5 Precepts.

Uh, newbuddhist.com does not represent any kind of authority, at least none that I'm aware of, as far as proof goes.

genkaku

I guess I should have added my opinion ... sorry.

I think the observations in the poster are beguiling in their bumper-sticker simplicity. There is something true that is suggested, but there is a whole lot of consideration that goes begging. Anyway, I'm not sticking it on my car.

Jeffrey

It depends for what reason you pursue morality. Or religion. Good intentions of mind and usually a good result follows. If not then the experience is a learning situation and the person eventually rights themselves. The real question is how can we change the fabric of the mind to follow these good tracks. The good religion has teachings with an upwards spiral and corrections of wrong views. And room to wiggle. Oh and it draws you out of your seat and participate.

vinlyn

Uh, newbuddhist.com does not represent any kind of authority, at least none that I'm aware of, as far as proof goes.

I never said it did. As usual you read things into someone words that are not there.

ThailandTom

I am curious to know of the source of this poster and it's creator

Lady_Alison

Should have been black white and red.

Iktomi

Uh, newbuddhist.com does not represent any kind of authority, at least none that I'm aware of, as far as proof goes.

I never said it did. As usual you read things into someone words that are not there.

I should rephrase. The fact that members of this forum express their differences does not prove that Buddhism provides a degree of freedom in accepting or rejecting the standards that it sets down.

Iktomi

Should have been black white and red.

Just curious. How would that have helped?

Lady_Alison

Maybe I am wrong to say this but hasn't their been blood shed in the name of religion...especially these three...when in fact all are suppose to promote the golden rule, a way of peace.

Black and white for their views and red, the color of blood.

ThailandTom

I see your logic, but I would suggest that the religions are sound, it is a percentage of the followers who taint the religion. It is like that saying about guns, guns don't kill people, people do. Religions don't kill people, people do.

Lady_Alison

Forget what I said, I didn't meditate today and seem in a dark mood. But I studied all three faiths and I practice Islam with Buddhism as a philosophy.

Lady_Alison

I agree with Tom. It's the way it's interpreted and twisted by men.

ThailandTom

How long have you been practicing Islam? I have a very good muslim friend back in the UK and I also had an ex Gf who was a muslim when I was a lil nipper.

Lady_Alison

Was Roman Catholic until 5 years ago. Intense philosophy and abrahamic studies, Torah and Gospels for 3 years and converted to Islam 2 years ago.

I would have been a Jew if they had let me but that club is exclusive to blood.

I don't believe in the divinity of christ.
Islam is Judaism for everyone.

Lady_Alison

I practice the spirit of all three faiths...not the dogma. I don't wear a hijab or any adopted cultural practices that were adopted into Islam.

Sorry, got off topic. You can pm me.

Lady_Alison

Compassion is doing what is right regardless of what your told.

Blind faith is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.

Jeffrey

Does the star of david symbolize anything?

Iktomi

Does the star of david symbolize anything?

David?

Jeffrey

iktomi, david was a king in Israel. the jewish star emblom is said to be 'the star of david'

david is most famous in the story 'david and goliath'

vinlyn

Uh, newbuddhist.com does not represent any kind of authority, at least none that I'm aware of, as far as proof goes.

I never said it did. As usual you read things into someone words that are not there.

I should rephrase. The fact that members of this forum express their differences does not prove that Buddhism provides a degree of freedom in accepting or rejecting the standards that it sets down.

I'm not going to get into an extended series of posts with you again. Look at what you have said in just two posts:

1.) "newbuddhist.com does not represent any kind of authority"
2.) "The fact that members of this forum express their differences does not prove that Buddhism provides a degree of freedom in accepting or rejecting the standards that it sets down"

Here's my position. Take it or leave it. I will not continue to discuss it with you.

1.) Buddhism sets some standards to moral behavior though teachings, such as The Precepts.
2.) Buddhists then interpret such teachings. Not all Buddhists agree with what The Precepts (for example) teach. This is clearly demonstrated by two situations:
a.) Some, including but not restricted to some in this forum, believe that The Precepts are guidelines, while others see them as rules.
b.) Some differ in their interpretations of what some of The Precepts mean. A good example is those who see the Precept against taking life as meaning one should not eat meat, while others see meat eating as okay because they are not personally taking life.

In Western society at least, people are not excommunicated from a religion, or killed, or stoned, etc., for not following a tenet of their religion. They still have freedom to follow what they please. An excellent example is birth control and the Catholic Church. Millions of Catholics follow the Church's rule on this, and millions ignore it and still accept the sacraments.

Iktomi

I agree with Tom. It's the way it's interpreted and twisted by men.

Agree with yall.

Lady_Alison

The cross is Christianity, the star and moon is the crescent moon symbolizing Islam and the star of David is Judaism.

ThailandTom

Why does sikhism always fall under the radar, won't somebody please think of the sikhs!!

Lady_Alison

Lol at Tom...maybe you can put up a picture.

Iktomi

I merely took exception of your claim of proof, Vinlyn.

ThailandTom

That has just triggered a memory of my first proper encounter with a religon. When I was maybe 10, as a class we all went to visit a sikh temple. I remember being amazed at the artwork on the walls and the, well I don't even know if the are monks or what, but they had swords behind them. I remember saying to a friend after it would be cool to be a sikh, to which I got mocked for saying after.

-Sorry way off topic

vinlyn

Why does sikhism always fall under the radar, won't somebody please think of the sikhs!!

Made me smile. Years ago I answered an ad in the Bangkok Post for an opening for a "headmaster" for "an international school". Oddly, applicants were to respond not to the school (which was never named), but directly to the Bangkok Post. I did...still wasn't told what school it was, but which hotel to go to for an interview. I walked into a conference room and saw the bearded (etc.) Sikh interview panel. It was the Sikh International School. After a brief interview they offered me the position, then told me the ridiculous salary, which I turned down, which they then sweetened with a $100 raise...per year. Again, I turned it down. Who knows, perhaps today I would have a grand beard and wear a head garment if I had accepted.

vinlyn

That has just triggered a memory of my first proper encounter with a religon. When I was maybe 10, as a class we all went to visit a sikh temple. I remember being amazed at the artwork on the walls and the, well I don't even know if the are monks or what, but they had swords behind them. I remember saying to a friend after it would be cool to be a sikh, to which I got mocked for saying after.

-Sorry way off topic

Yes, I enjoyed seeing their artwork in a number of their temples in Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. So vivid and imaginative.

ThailandTom

Yes it is funny how small decisions can drastically change the path of our life. I was thinking about this last night before going to sleep, how if I had made a few decisions slightly differently, I would be in a totally different position right now. But, that is the past. It does not exist along with your grand beard and head garment. Their artwork and temples (from what I have seen) are real masterpeices. I remember walking around in silence with my mouth gaped open. Most of the other kids being 10 were laughing at things such as the artwork and beards, also that thing they wave around whilst sitting.

taiyaki

@Jeffrey

The star of david symbolizes the heart chakra. Meeting of the lower and higher energies at the heart. One arrow pointing down and one up.

But thats my interpretation.

jll

Religion has become a very unpopular word in the west.
This is quite unique to the west.
just take a glance at the Islamic world,
they still take their religion very seriously.
Religion is just a set of beliefs.
Nothing more , nothing less.
cults are also religions.
Buddhism is also a religion.
Dont hate the word just because your religion suck.

jll

What is missing here is Vinlyn has not defined what a Buddhist is.
without defining a buddhist, your later arguments are quite meaningless.

Uh, newbuddhist.com does not represent any kind of authority, at least none that I'm aware of, as far as proof goes.

I never said it did. As usual you read things into someone words that are not there.

I should rephrase. The fact that members of this forum express their differences does not prove that Buddhism provides a degree of freedom in accepting or rejecting the standards that it sets down.

I'm not going to get into an extended series of posts with you again. Look at what you have said in just two posts:

1.) "newbuddhist.com does not represent any kind of authority"
2.) "The fact that members of this forum express their differences does not prove that Buddhism provides a degree of freedom in accepting or rejecting the standards that it sets down"

Here's my position. Take it or leave it. I will not continue to discuss it with you.

1.) Buddhism sets some standards to moral behavior though teachings, such as The Precepts.
2.) Buddhists then interpret such teachings. Not all Buddhists agree with what The Precepts (for example) teach. This is clearly demonstrated by two situations:
a.) Some, including but not restricted to some in this forum, believe that The Precepts are guidelines, while others see them as rules.
b.) Some differ in their interpretations of what some of The Precepts mean. A good example is those who see the Precept against taking life as meaning one should not eat meat, while others see meat eating as okay because they are not personally taking life.

In Western society at least, people are not excommunicated from a religion, or killed, or stoned, etc., for not following a tenet of their religion. They still have freedom to follow what they please. An excellent example is birth control and the Catholic Church. Millions of Catholics follow the Church's rule on this, and millions ignore it and still accept the sacraments.

Lady_Alison

The star of David is two symbols superimposed to create a new meaning that is not Jewish at all. The top and bottoms of the star arethe apex of two pyramids.

One on top of the other.

The upward pyramid is the power of a king, with its base resting on earth and summit reaching heaven. The other represents the power of the priest reaching down to earth from heaven.

It is called the star of David, not because David invented it, but a symbol for the prophesied Jesus as the earthly and heavenly king.

This symbol has never appeared in ancient Hebrew books.. it first became popular in christian churches in the middle ages...but its use in synogogues did not come into being until the 19th century.

The Hiram key, PG 238-241

vinlyn

Religion has become a very unpopular word in the west.

Well, you're half right. To many people, religion has become sort of an unpopular concept. Well, actually, I wouldn't say it's become unpopular, I'd say that religion to many people has become something that is more and more self-defined; many people no longer will accept religion (or for that matter a political party) as defined by the hierarchy.

But to many other people, religion is stronger than ever. Take your fundamentalist Christians in the West. They scare me with their intensely strong and somewhat rigid religious beliefs.

vinlyn

What is missing here is Vinlyn has not defined what a Buddhist is.
without defining a buddhist, your later arguments are quite meaningless.

Is this a new requirement before we post something...that we have to define Buddhism or what a Buddhist is before we post our thoughts. This is a chat, not a treatise.

And no, it's not up to vinlyn or any other person here to define what makes a Buddhist.

robot

What is missing here is Vinlyn has not defined what a Buddhist is.
without defining a buddhist, your later arguments are quite meaningless.

I may be wrong, but wasn't his point that Buddhists and more specifically, NewBuddhists, define themselves as Buddhists and take the precepts as they see fit?

robot

Sorry Vinlyn for attempting to speak for you. You beat me to it.

person

Religion has become a very unpopular word in the west.

HHDL take on it is that in the past people prayed in their religion for good things to happen and their suffering to be eased. Then science came along and offered tangible improvements in people's lives. So in easing us of our worldly burdens science has proven much more effective. Now though we are coming to see some of the limits for material gain in providing us with happiness and easing suffering.

Lady_Alison

Lol @vinlyn...scared...you and me, both.

I live in Texas, the Bible belt of the world.

I was chatting with a very spiritual woman at the grocery store about eckhart...she serves samples there.

Anyway, two young women in Sunday best come up and I explain to them how I don't attend sabbatical worship. They were shocked.

I said "don't you have a home? " they nodded. " and a sound body,yes? " they looked at me curiously.

"Don't make them into graveyards and pray in them."

Not thrilled were they. But I care not for outward devotion.

jll

I am not asking you to write a thesis
about what a buddhist is.
I am just saying when you refer to a buddhist,
what do you mean?
Your personal opinion.
That is what I want to know.
I believe you dont consider yourself a buddhist.
that is why i am keen to know who you consider to be buddhists.

What is missing here is Vinlyn has not defined what a Buddhist is.
without defining a buddhist, your later arguments are quite meaningless.

Is this a new requirement before we post something...that we have to define Buddhism or what a Buddhist is before we post our thoughts. This is a chat, not a treatise.

And no, it's not up to vinlyn or any other person here to define what makes a Buddhist.

vinlyn

What is missing here is Vinlyn has not defined what a Buddhist is.
without defining a buddhist, your later arguments are quite meaningless.

I may be wrong, but wasn't his point that Buddhists and more specifically, NewBuddhists, define themselves as Buddhists and take the precepts as they see fit?

We're very much in agreement. Thanks for your post.

vinlyn

Religion has become a very unpopular word in the west.

HHDL take on it is that in the past people prayed in their religion for good things to happen and their suffering to be eased. Then science came along and offered tangible improvements in people's lives. So in easing us of our worldly burdens science has proven much more effective. Now though we are coming to see some of the limits for material gain in providing us with happiness and easing suffering.

Yes, and I think that along with the science aspect, there's also more of a sense of personal freedom on the part of many people.

vinlyn

Lol @vinlyn...scared...you and me, both.

I live in Texas, the Bible belt of the world.

LOL..try Virginia and Colorado Springs as close seconds!

vinlyn

I am not asking you to write a thesis
about what a buddhist is.
I am just saying when you refer to a buddhist,
what do you mean?
Your personal opinion.
That is what I want to know.
I believe you dont consider yourself a buddhist.
that is why i am keen to know who you consider to be buddhists.

Here's the answer I'll give you. I once asked a Buddhist monk in Bangkok what I had to do to become a Buddhist (e.g., is there something equivalent to "confirmation" in the Catholic Church. His answer was: "If you think like a Buddhist and act like a Buddhist, the you're a Buddhist."

But, as with all things, it's probably a question of degrees. I believe in the 5 Precepts, I believe in the concepts of the Four Noble Truths, and the principles of the Eightfold Path. When you go beyond those things, my level of questioning rises substantially. And, I believe in finding wisdom wherever it comes from. There are many Christian principles I believe are wise, for example.

seeker242

True, false, maybe...?

What if the Religion tells you to do what is right, regardless of what you are told?

Lady_Alison

I am not asking you to write a thesis
about what a buddhist is.
I am just saying when you refer to a buddhist,
what do you mean?
Your personal opinion.
That is what I want to know.
I believe you dont consider yourself a buddhist.
that is why i am keen to know who you consider to be buddhists.

Here's the answer I'll give you. I onMkce asked a Buddhist monk in Bangkok what I had to do to become a Buddhist (e.g., is there something equivalent to "confirmation" in the Catholic Church. His answer was: "If you think like a Buddhist and act like a Buddhist, the you're a Buddhist."

But, as with all things, it's probably a question of degrees. I believe in the 5 Precepts, I believe in the concepts of the Four Noble Truths, and the principles of the Eightfold Path. When you go beyond those things, my level of questioning rises substantially. And, I believe in finding wisdom wherever it comes from. There are many Christian principles I believe are wise, for example.

To be Jew you follow the law of Moses and ten commandments. Jesus, the beautides, the golden rule and"the our father". Islam, the five pillars.

I am taking vinlyn's side.