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If everyone reaches nirvana, will the world disappear?
if it wasn't dependently originated, how would it be experienced?
i'll dance all day.
Great answer! Thank you. emptiness, rigpa, Buddha nature, boddhicitta etc. are dependently originated, then by definition these are impermanent. As such, they cannot possibly have anything to do with the ultimate reality. Being compounded (= dependently arisen), these entities are bound to perish. Ultimate reality cannot perish; if it could, it would not qualify as ultimate reality.
emptiness is dependently originated? thats news to me... emptiness is not anything...its just the potential to become. because of emptiness, forms can arise and fall... but emptiness is not dependently originated...
I agree for the most part. But the idea of something ending is dependent on positing something in the first place. For example if we look in the sky at a cloud and say that looks like a whale. And then then the picture is gone. The ending of the whale is dependendent on positing.
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
emptiness is dependently originated? thats news to me... emptiness is not anything...its just the potential to become. because of emptiness, forms can arise and fall... but emptiness is not dependently originated...
Form is emptiness Emptiness is form Form is not other than emptiness Emptiness is not other than form
I guess I'm no expert but I always thought this meant dependently originated.
if it wasn't dependently originated, how would it be experienced?
i'll dance all day.
Great answer! Thank you. emptiness, rigpa, Buddha nature, boddhicitta etc. are dependently originated, then by definition these are impermanent. As such, they cannot possibly have anything to do with the ultimate reality. Being compounded (= dependently arisen), these entities are bound to perish. Ultimate reality cannot perish; if it could, it would not qualify as ultimate reality.
emptiness is dependently originated? thats news to me... emptiness is not anything...its just the potential to become. because of emptiness, forms can arise and fall... but emptiness is not dependently originated...
According to both the Buddha and Nagarjuna, there isn't any evidence available anywhere that there could be a phenomenon that is not dependently originated. You claiming that emptiness is not dependently originated flies directly in the face of the Buddha's and Nagarjuna's teaching.
You claiming that emptiness is not dependently originated flies directly in the face of the Buddha's and Nagarjuna's teaching.
Prove it.
According to both the Buddha and Nagarjuna, there isn't any evidence available anywhere that there could be a phenomenon that is not dependently originated.
I meant, prove that Zen_World's claim flies in the face of Buddha's and Nagarjuna's teaching.
Even if that's what they said, it doesn't settle the matter. Like I said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. All they said (according to you. Still waiting for that proof...) was that there's no evidence.
I meant, prove that Zen_World's claim flies in the face of Buddha's and Nagarjuna's teaching.
Even if that's what they said, it doesn't settle the matter. Like I said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. All they said (according to you. Still waiting for that proof...) was that there's no evidence.
The onus is on the incumbent to provide the evidence. If you say that no one has ever seen an unicorn, I can then insist that they do indeed exist. All fine and dandy, but the onus is now on me to provide the evidence that unicorns do indeed exist. If I fail to do so, I can't claim that I won the wager.
In this case, whosoever can supply the evidence of a phenomenon that is not dependently arisen, will be the first person in history to have completely destroyed Buddhism.
Plus, that person will be entered in the Guiness Book of world records. And also appear on Ellen Degeneres talk show. Crazy shit.
you're absolutely right. everything by its nature is liberation. thus upon inception we cannot find. even the words liberation is in the nature of liberation. even rigpa is liberation. even emptiness is liberation.
everything is compounded thus already liberation.
how did you come up with this ? everything is - how - liberation? thats your projection....somehow you project liberation into "everything"....
your above paragraph sounds like a new age hippy talk, sorry:) liberation cannot be achieved by simple non-dualistic mind. the root of suffering is far deep...
non-dualistic realization - by its nature - non dualistic...so you cannot call it liberation, its false projection by positive discrimination. Non dualistic awareness is just a pure awareness...thats not liberation.
I really don't understand what are you labeling as 'liberation'...? suchness is not liberation....in fact I go and call it 'prison'...
.
how can liberation be achieved then? who is the liberator? who is liberated? what is liberated? and what is liberating? what is turning into liberated?
everything is emptiness. you're absolutely right that liberation is a projection.
but that is the same with your projection of prison.
samsara and nirvana are both projections.
what beings are there to save? and what beings aren't there to save?
don't assume anything. if everything isn't already liberation, then say bye bye to enlightenment and freedom.
btw there are no "things" to label liberation onto. liberation is a projection onto referentless phenomena.
He never did provide quotes of the Buddha's and Nagarjuna's teachings about the lack of evidence that there could be a phenomenon that wasn't dependently originated. All bluster, no documentation. :-/
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2012
He also changed from being a teacher, to being an instructor.... No matter, let's let it slide.....
There are so many thread going on about emptiness...I am confused where to post this... Emptiness is form form is emptiness...
I personally do not favor the word 'emptiness'...it is confusing...and I am not sure if this is translated badly or something is wrong fundamentally by its use....
Emptiness is potentiality... potentiality would be a much suitable word than emptiness...
Potentiality is something that doesn't exist. But it does not not exist either.
So by replacing emptiness with potentiality, I made a radical change maybe, but, it logically make more sense - and you can challenge this as you will...
if emptiness is really potentiality (particularly the way it is used in quantum mechanics) than you cannot argue its dependency to any other phenomena. Its just a probability, an abstract term...but it is foundation of all phenomena...
dependency or dependent origination is only valid for fixed phenomena...observed phenomena...or phenomena that can be experienced or realized...
I personally do not favor the word 'emptiness'...it is confusing...and I am not sure if this is translated badly or something is wrong fundamentally by its use....
Emptiness is potentiality... potentiality would be a much suitable word than emptiness...
It's interesting. Some experts say the Buddha never used the word "emptiness". Back when I was in college, the professors used the term "the Void". Stephen Batchelor does tend toward discussing potentiality, which to me makes more sense. So I think you're on to something.
edit: No, Fede's not referring to you. It's over, thank heaven, don't worry about it.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
The word 'emptiness' is a bit like the word 'suffering'... not quite right, difficult to grasp and somewhat lost in translation.....
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
He also changed from being a teacher, to being an instructor.... No matter, let's let it slide.....
are you referring to me?
Absolutely not.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Potential for what? Potential makes no sense without a phenomena that emerges from it. Like the non duality of cause and effect. In time a cause comes first then the effect. But if a 'cause' produces no effect it can't really be thought of as a cause at all. Therefore they arise together. In the same way if potential doesn't give rise to anything then can it really be potential? Isn't then just nothing?
shunyata is experienced sometimes as 'no big deal' according to a Pema Chodron cd I have. And that emptiness has something to do with our tendency to concretize things.
This may not be impressive but as far as transforming our minds I think it is more relevant.
shunyata is experienced sometimes as 'no big deal' according to a Pema Chodron cd I have. And that emptiness has something to do with our tendency to concretize things.
This may not be impressive but as far as transforming our minds I think it is more relevant.
Bingo and that is the function of such teachings. Open heart and mind.
Potential for what? Potential makes no sense without a phenomena that emerges from it. Like the non duality of cause and effect. In time a cause comes first then the effect. But if a 'cause' produces no effect it can't really be thought of as a cause at all. Therefore they arise together. In the same way if potential doesn't give rise to anything then can it really be potential? Isn't then just nothing?
there are so many points here...its good...but if I try to answer it will blow out into a massive reply:) I prefer you can make a simple statement...lol
Bingo and that is the function of such teachings. Open heart and mind.
taiyaki....to your earlier message about liberation... My answer is hidden in your own answer... the mind is the prison, hearth is the liberation... hearth is not non-dual awareness... there is something in hearth that is like in another dimension...when it is extracted, its nature is liberation... non dual awareness is like a death body...its not alive...
you have good hearth... it is your hearth that is there to make you feel like liberated but you are confusing it with non-dual awareness.... just saying....look closely...
Bingo and that is the function of such teachings. Open heart and mind.
taiyaki....to your earlier message about liberation... My answer is hidden in your own answer... the mind is the prison, hearth is the liberation... hearth is not non-dual awareness... there is something in hearth that is like in another dimension...when it is extracted, its nature is liberation... non dual awareness is like a death body...its not alive...
you have good hearth... it is your hearth that is there to make you feel like liberated but you are confusing it with non-dual awareness.... just saying....look closely...
Never said non dual awareness is what liberates.
In actuality there is absolutely no difference between the arising phenomena and awareness. All phenomena are self luminous.
Thoughts themselves are awareness which is DO thus empty.
Rigpa is basic confidence through presence that all things be it samsaric or nirvanic are empty and luminous.
There is no arising is awareness or an awareness watching phenomena. Phenomena and awareness are indistinguishible and non dual.
Those who seek stillness, no thought, happiness are fools.
The nature of all phenomena are luminous and empty.
This is basic mahamudra.
All phenomena self liberate.
I understand where you are coming from. But you do not undertand what is being pointed out to you.
Awareness or presence is not being grasped as liberation. That would be dangerous. Phenomena with correct view of anatta, DO and two fold emptiness and presence/awareness as phenomena itself is what is being pointed out.
There is no inherently existing awareness that isn't depdently originated. Awareness itself is merely a play of DO.
Thoughts an no thoughts. Suffering or liberation are all already in liberation.
Potential makes no sense without a phenomena that emerges from it. ?
if potentiality only makes sense dependent on a phenomena arising from it than it wouldn't be a potentiality, isnt it? then it would be a fixed solid state....
Like the non duality of cause and effect. In time a cause comes first then the effect. But if a 'cause' produces no effect it can't really be thought of as a cause at all. Therefore they arise together. In the same way if potential doesn't give rise to anything then can it really be potential? Isn't then just nothing?
how come both phenomena and its potential can arise together? this actually doesnt make sense to me...and in qauantum phsyics we can talk about potentiality with mathematics without observation. so the abstract is still there without the phenomena and once its observed the phenomena arises from that potential...
In actuality there is absolutely no difference between the arising phenomena and awareness. All phenomena are self luminous.
Thoughts themselves are awareness which is DO thus empty.
Rigpa is basic confidence through presence that all things be it samsaric or nirvanic are empty and luminous.
There is no arising is awareness or an awareness watching phenomena. Phenomena and awareness are indistinguishible and non dual.
Those who seek stillness, no thought, happiness are fools.
The nature of all phenomena are luminous and empty.
This is basic mahamudra.
All phenomena self liberate.
I understand where you are coming from. But you do not undertand what is being pointed out to you.
Awareness or presence is not being grasped as liberation. That would be dangerous. Phenomena with correct view of anatta, DO and two fold emptiness and presence/awareness as phenomena itself is what is being pointed out.
There is no inherently existing awareness that isn't depdently originated. Awareness itself is merely a play of DO.
Thoughts an no thoughts. Suffering or liberation are all already in liberation.
I am sorry but I dont think you are understanding me... you are still talking about nature of things and how their nature is luminous and liberation. The nature of things have nothing to do with liberation. Once you see the nature of things, that is non dual awarenes... Luminosity is apparent when the mind becomes subtle... From that point you meditate on suchness focusing attention on the heart...thats is the inner yoga practice... when you reach the subtlest form, than you meet the being in the hearth. from than on, the nature of things are not even important anymore. nature of things are the object of the mind... as long as the mind present, there is no lberation. when the mind ceases, then there is no awareness to see the nature of things and the perception of luminousity... this is the ultimate cessation...
When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide Where I stop and I turn and then I go for a ride 'Til I get to the bottom and I see you again, yeh, yeh yeh
Do you, don't you want me to love you I'm coming down fast, but I'm miles above you Tell me, tell me tell me, c'mon tell me the answer Well you may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.
Now Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, yeah ...
a-Will you, won't you want me to make you I'm coming down fast, but don't let me break you Tell me, tell me, tell me the answer You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.
Look out! Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, oooh... Look out, 'cause here she come ...
When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide And I stop and I turn and then I go for a ride And I get to the bottom and I see you again, yeh, yeh yeh
Well do you, don't you want me to make you I'm coming down fast, but don't let me break you Tell me, tell me, tell me your answer You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer
“All phenomena are illusory displays of mind. Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind. Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded, manifesting as everything whatsoever.”
The waves are the unimpeded nature relentless and inexoribly bringing us to samsara (and from). The sun is the clarity shining on the waves. The warmth of the sun is the luminosity.
“All phenomena are illusory displays of mind. Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind. Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded, manifesting as everything whatsoever.”
-3rd Karmapa
yes I guess that is the zen saying too...true mind is no mind...
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
if potentiality only makes sense dependent on a phenomena arising from it than it wouldn't be a potentiality, isnt it? then it would be a fixed solid state....
Your words are exactly what I mean. Though it sounds like you don't get my meaning. If nothing arises from potentiality it wouldn't be potentiality and it would be like you say a fixed, solid state.
how come both phenomena and its potential can arise together? this actually doesnt make sense to me...
Another example is father and son. A man exists prior to the son and in part because of him a son arises. The man isn't a father until the son is born, they both arise together. Its the same as cause and effect. An event occurs but if there is no subsequent event it can't be called a cause. Once there is an effect the previous event becomes a cause. They arise together.
One thought experiment I like to use for myself is to imagine nothing but blackness. Then imagine a cube appearing. What is it that appeared? The cube? The eye conciousness? The light? If it was the cube how can we say that eye conciousness existed prior to the cube appearing? We can conceptualize eye conciousness existing there prior to the event but how can we say that it actually existed? Eye conciousness can't exist without a form that it percieves. Form can't exist without an eye conciousness that percieves it.
"To study the Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe. To be enlightened by all things of the universe is to cast off the body and mind of the self as well as those of others. Even the traces of enlightenment are wiped out, and life with traceless enlightenment goes on forever and ever."
Another example is father and son. A man exists prior to the son and in part because of him a son arises. The man isn't a father until the son is born, they both arise together. Its the same as cause and effect. An event occurs but if there is no subsequent event it can't be called a cause. Once there is an effect the previous event becomes a cause. They arise together.
One thought experiment I like to use for myself is to imagine nothing but blackness. Then imagine a cube appearing. What is it that appeared? The cube? The eye conciousness? The light? If it was the cube how can we say that eye conciousness existed prior to the cube appearing? We can conceptualize eye conciousness existing there prior to the event but how can we say that it actually existed? Eye conciousness can't exist without a form that it percieves. Form can't exist without an eye conciousness that percieves it.
These are okay, I have no objection but these are examples from the conventional reality. The potentiality and the emptiness I am discussing here from the ultimate point of view. So these examples do not fit into this case...
Science is very clear...potentiality is there as abstract and can be calculated statistically. And there is no phenomena. Once observed the phenomena arises. The probability was still there even before the observation. That is the emptiness....
If phenomena and emptiness arises together, can they arise simoulatenously? your examples are valid when there is a time flow...
We are talking about the origins ...How phenomena arises from emptiness? Does emptiness caused phenomena or phenomena caused emptiness? If they arised simultaneously, then you are referring to a fix state, which I don't think is possible. That kills the inherent existence....
"To study the Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe. To be enlightened by all things of the universe is to cast off the body and mind of the self as well as those of others. Even the traces of enlightenment are wiped out, and life with traceless enlightenment goes on forever and ever."
Sorry it is my ignorance!
your hearth is your treasure...and you have that...its always nice talking to you...
If you think about it potentiality doesn't have potentiality, rather it already is potentiality. @person it is traditional that emptiness is empty.. But I don't think it is conditional.
That might be a rangtong shentong issue though. In shentong there is unconditional nature which is self, satisifying, and permanent. It is empty though. Discovered, but not found.
shentong is emptiness of other.. so things are ungraspable. They view rangtong as having a grasping to negation..
Comments
a formation of whale was dependent - not the sky...
Emptiness is form
Form is not other than emptiness
Emptiness is not other than form
I guess I'm no expert but I always thought this meant dependently originated.
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
No popcorn for you. :hrm:
Even if that's what they said, it doesn't settle the matter. Like I said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. All they said (according to you. Still waiting for that proof...) was that there's no evidence.
In this case, whosoever can supply the evidence of a phenomenon that is not dependently arisen, will be the first person in history to have completely destroyed Buddhism.
Plus, that person will be entered in the Guiness Book of world records. And also appear on Ellen Degeneres talk show. Crazy shit.
Try again. Ellen Degeneres is still waiting on the other line...
they are the same thing.
forms do not arise and fall. forms are traceless and unproduced.
emptiness is the potential and the expression. they are the same thing.
how can liberation be achieved then? who is the liberator? who is liberated? what is liberated? and what is liberating? what is turning into liberated?
everything is emptiness. you're absolutely right that liberation is a projection.
but that is the same with your projection of prison.
samsara and nirvana are both projections.
what beings are there to save? and what beings aren't there to save?
don't assume anything. if everything isn't already liberation, then say bye bye to enlightenment and freedom.
btw there are no "things" to label liberation onto. liberation is a projection onto referentless phenomena.
No matter, let's let it slide.....
Emptiness is form
form is emptiness...
I personally do not favor the word 'emptiness'...it is confusing...and I am not sure if this is translated badly or something is wrong fundamentally by its use....
Emptiness is potentiality...
potentiality would be a much suitable word than emptiness...
Potentiality is something that doesn't exist. But it does not not exist either.
So by replacing emptiness with potentiality, I made a radical change maybe, but, it logically make more sense - and you can challenge this as you will...
if emptiness is really potentiality (particularly the way it is used in quantum mechanics) than you cannot argue its dependency to any other phenomena. Its just a probability, an abstract term...but it is foundation of all phenomena...
dependency or dependent origination is only valid for fixed phenomena...observed phenomena...or phenomena that can be experienced or realized...
edit: No, Fede's not referring to you. It's over, thank heaven, don't worry about it.
Absolutely not.
This may not be impressive but as far as transforming our minds I think it is more relevant.
My answer is hidden in your own answer...
the mind is the prison, hearth is the liberation...
hearth is not non-dual awareness...
there is something in hearth that is like in another dimension...when it is extracted, its nature is liberation...
non dual awareness is like a death body...its not alive...
you have good hearth...
it is your hearth that is there to make you feel like liberated but you are confusing it with non-dual awareness....
just saying....look closely...
In actuality there is absolutely no difference between the arising phenomena and awareness. All phenomena are self luminous.
Thoughts themselves are awareness which is DO thus empty.
Rigpa is basic confidence through presence that all things be it samsaric or nirvanic are empty and luminous.
There is no arising is awareness or an awareness watching phenomena. Phenomena and awareness are indistinguishible and non dual.
Those who seek stillness, no thought, happiness are fools.
The nature of all phenomena are luminous and empty.
This is basic mahamudra.
All phenomena self liberate.
I understand where you are coming from. But you do not undertand what is being pointed out to you.
Awareness or presence is not being grasped as liberation. That would be dangerous. Phenomena with correct view of anatta, DO and two fold emptiness and presence/awareness as phenomena itself is what is being pointed out.
There is no inherently existing awareness that isn't depdently originated. Awareness itself is merely a play of DO.
Thoughts an no thoughts. Suffering or liberation are all already in liberation.
you are still talking about nature of things and how their nature is luminous and liberation.
The nature of things have nothing to do with liberation.
Once you see the nature of things, that is non dual awarenes...
Luminosity is apparent when the mind becomes subtle...
From that point you meditate on suchness focusing attention on the heart...thats is the inner yoga practice...
when you reach the subtlest form, than you meet the being in the hearth.
from than on, the nature of things are not even important anymore.
nature of things are the object of the mind...
as long as the mind present, there is no lberation.
when the mind ceases, then there is no awareness to see the nature of things and the perception of luminousity...
this is the ultimate cessation...
When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
Where I stop and I turn and then I go for a ride
'Til I get to the bottom and I see you again, yeh, yeh yeh
Do you, don't you want me to love you
I'm coming down fast, but I'm miles above you
Tell me, tell me tell me, c'mon tell me the answer
Well you may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.
Now Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, yeah ...
a-Will you, won't you want me to make you
I'm coming down fast, but don't let me break you
Tell me, tell me, tell me the answer
You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.
Look out!
Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, oooh...
Look out, 'cause here she come ...
When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
And I stop and I turn and then I go for a ride
And I get to the bottom and I see you again, yeh, yeh yeh
Well do you, don't you want me to make you
I'm coming down fast, but don't let me break you
Tell me, tell me, tell me your answer
You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer
Look out!
helter skelter, helter skelter, helter skelter
Look out! Helter Skelter ... she coming down fast
yes she is
yes she is
coming down fast
oh now helter skelter ... woo hooo
(yelled)
I got blisters on my fingers!
interesting, i agree with that actually.
“All phenomena are illusory displays
of mind. Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind. Being
empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded, manifesting as everything whatsoever.”
-3rd Karmapa
The waves are the unimpeded nature relentless and inexoribly bringing us to samsara (and from). The sun is the clarity shining on the waves. The warmth of the sun is the luminosity.
One thought experiment I like to use for myself is to imagine nothing but blackness. Then imagine a cube appearing. What is it that appeared? The cube? The eye conciousness? The light? If it was the cube how can we say that eye conciousness existed prior to the cube appearing? We can conceptualize eye conciousness existing there prior to the event but how can we say that it actually existed? Eye conciousness can't exist without a form that it percieves. Form can't exist without an eye conciousness that percieves it.
this is what Dogen pointed to as well:
"To study the Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe. To be enlightened by all things of the universe is to cast off the body and mind of the self as well as those of others. Even the traces of enlightenment are wiped out, and life with traceless enlightenment goes on forever and ever."
Sorry it is my ignorance!
Science is very clear...potentiality is there as abstract and can be calculated statistically. And there is no phenomena. Once observed the phenomena arises.
The probability was still there even before the observation. That is the emptiness....
If phenomena and emptiness arises together, can they arise simoulatenously?
your examples are valid when there is a time flow...
We are talking about the origins ...How phenomena arises from emptiness? Does emptiness caused phenomena or phenomena caused emptiness? If they arised simultaneously, then you are referring to a fix state, which I don't think is possible. That kills the inherent existence....
do you mean heart?
sorry just confusing me.
Maybe the disagreement is that you're attributing 'thingness' to potentiality? If its a thing then its not potential anymore.
That might be a rangtong shentong issue though. In shentong there is unconditional nature which is self, satisifying, and permanent. It is empty though. Discovered, but not found.
shentong is emptiness of other.. so things are ungraspable. They view rangtong as having a grasping to negation..
Nagarjuna refuted both positions in some ways.