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If everyone reaches nirvana, will the world disappear?
I was wondering what would happen if everyone reached nirvana - would existance disappear?
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Buddha was still in the world for some period of time after his enlightenment.
On the other hand, if we're all Enlightened, it wouldn't matter if the world disappeared, would it? We'd all be blissed out in Tushita heaven. :om:
Conrad.
If you see it as immersedone describes then no.
Either way - you dont exist anyway so make the most of your time.
existence, non existence, both existence & non existence and neither existence & non existence do not apply to reality.
nirvana is total cessation, but nirvana is also a projection.
everything is already of the nature of liberation. one moment or one things cessation is only relevant if given the status of entity. All things are in constant cessation because they are constantly arising, but never from, in, or as.
Nirvana cannot be reached because then nirvana would exist apart from us. If that is the case then nirvana would be impossible to interact with.
Because even liberation is a projection or a liberator, liberated...liberation is possible.
existence is merely an appearance with no true essence. assertions of anything are merely dualistic entrapment's to encapsulate an infinite process of finites meeting finites.
in short. everything is nirvanic and samsaric because both are perceptions.
To properly answer the OP, we need the OP to clarify what is meant by "everyone". All humankind, or all sentient beings.
If you are in a dream, dreaming that you are somebody, do you care how old that somebody is, when he is going to die, what is going to happen to him after this and that happens etc. In your dream, you may ask these questions and possibly you will create some answers but its just a dream, who cares..
when you wake up, do you care about that somebody you dreamt last night? do you care about his age, his destiny? no...does his age, destiny mean anything? no
any question that has a 'time' dimension - such as 'what will happen if everyone reaches nirvana'- cannot be answered because it doesn't have an answer because this is just like a dream...
but new members either stay, and gradually become in tune with how the forum works - or eventually leave.
Either of their own accord, or with a little help.
The novelty wears of for established members.
it's a bit like trains.
People learn what their station in life is, because others tell them where to get off....
What more is there to do?
Sorry, but dependently originated phenomena cannot be called Atman.
On the ultimate level all events in samsara and nirvana never come into being, and so have no separate existence. On the relative plane they are illusory figments of mind, so again they have no separate existence. They are unoriginated events appearing in a plethora of magical illusion, which is like the reflection of the moon in water, possessing an inherent acausal dynamic. Since this essentially insubstantial magical illusion also never comes into being, ultimate and relative are identical and their identity is the one cause. Thus intuitive realization of [total presence] arises [with attainment of the unity of the two truths].
- Padmasambhava - Man ngag lta ba'i phreng ba -
And what on earth is that thing everybody's talking nowadays -- ultimate reality?
(Also see: Rigpa and Aggregates by Daniel Ingram)
Loppon Namdrol:
There is no teaching in Buddhism higher than dependent origination. Whatever originates in dependence is empty. The view of Dzogchen, according to ChNN (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche) in his rdzogs chen skor dri len is the same as Prasanga Madhyamaka, with one difference only - Madhyamaka view is a result of intellectual analysis, Dzogchen view is not. Philosophically, however, they are the same. The view of Madhyamaka does not go beyond the view of dependent origination, since the Madhyamaka view is dependent origination. He also cites Sakya Pandita "If there were something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme."
Further, there is no rigpa to speak of that exists separate from the earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness that make up the universe and sentient beings. Rigpa is merely a different way of talking about these six things. In their pure state (their actual state) we talk about the radiance of the five wisdoms of rig pa. In their impure state we talk about how the five elements arise from consciousness. One coin, two sides. And it is completely empty from beginning to end, and top to bottom, free from all extremes and not established in anyway.
Dzogchen teachings also describe the process of how sentient being continue in an afflicted state (suffering), what is the cause of that afflicted state (suffering), that fact that afflicted state can cease (the cessation of suffering) and the correct path to end that suffering (the truth of the path). Dzogchen teachings describe the four noble truths in terms of dependent origination also.
Ergo, Dzogchen also does not go beyond Buddha's teaching of dependent origination which Nagarjuna describes in the following fashion:
I bow to him, the greatest of the teachers,
the Sambuddha, by whom dependent origination --
not ceasing, not arising
not annihilated, not permanent,
not going, not coming,
not diverse, not single,
was taught as peace
in order to pacify proliferation.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/10/dzogchen-rigpa-and-dependent.html
Dear Mark,
Thanks for your descriptions and analysis. They are interesting and relevant.
I think of it this way, from a very high but still vipassana point of view, as you are framing this question in a vipassana context:
First, the breath is nice, but at that level of manifesting sensations, some other points of view are helpful:
Assume something really simple about sensations and awareness: they are exactly the same. In fact, make it more simple: there are sensations, and this includes all sensations that make up space, thought, image, body, anything you can imagine being mind, and all qualities that are experienced, meaning the sum total of the world.
In this very simple framework, rigpa is all sensations, but there can be this subtle attachment and lack of investigation when high terms are used that we want there to be this super-rigpa, this awareness that is other. You mention that you feel there is a larger awareness, an awareness that is not just there the limits of your senses. I would claim otherwise: that the whole sensate universe by definition can't arise without the quality of awareness by definition, and so some very subtle sensations are tricking you into thinking they are bigger than the rest of the sensate field and are actually the awareness that is aware of other sensations.
Awareness is simply manifestation. All sensations are simply present.
Thus, be wary of anything that wants to be a super-awareness, a rigpa that is larger than everything else, as it can't be, by definition. Investigate at the level of bare sensate experience just what arises and see that it can't possibly be different from awareness, as this is actually an extraneous concept and there are actually just sensations as the first and final basis of reality.
As you like the Tibetan stuff, and to quote Padmasambhava in the root text of the book The Light of Wisdom:
"The mind that observes is also devoid of an ego or self-entity.
It is neither seen as something different from the aggregates
Nor as identical with these five aggregates.
If the first were true, there would exist some other substance.
This is not the case, so were the second true,
That would contradict a permanent self, since the aggregates are impermanent.
Therefore, based on the five aggregates,
The self is a mere imputation based on the power of the ego-clinging.
As to that which imputes, the past thought has vanished and is nonexistent.
The future thought has not occurred, and the present thought does not withstand scrutiny."
I really found this little block of tight philosophy helpful. It is also very vipassana at its core, but it is no surprise the wisdom traditions converge.
Thus, if you want to crack the nut, notice that everything is 5 aggregates, including everything you think is super-awareness, and be less concerned with what every little type of consciousness is than with just perceiving them directly and noticing the gaps that section off this from that, such as rigpa from thought stream, or awareness from sensations, as these are golden chains.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/rigpa-and-aggregates.html
i'll dance all day.
If unfindability, emptiness, rigpa, Buddha nature, boddhicitta etc. are dependently originated, then by definition these are impermanent. As such, they cannot possibly have anything to do with the ultimate reality. Being compounded (= dependently arisen), these entities are bound to perish. Ultimate reality cannot perish; if it could, it would not qualify as ultimate reality.
The nature of mind is to sense other possibilities. This is indestructible.
everything by its nature is liberation. thus upon inception we cannot find.
even the words liberation is in the nature of liberation.
even rigpa is liberation.
even emptiness is liberation.
everything is compounded thus already liberation.
38. When eye and form assume their right relation,
Appearances appear without a blur.
Since these neither arise nor cease,
They are the dharmadhatu, though they are imagined to be otherwise.
39. When sound and ear assume their right relation,
A consciousness free of thought occurs.
These three are in essence the dharmadhatu, free of other characteristics,
But they become "hearing" when thought of conceptually.
40. Dependent upon the nose and an odor, one smells.
And as with the example of form there is neither arising nor cessation,
But in dependence upon the nose-consciousness’s experience,
The dharmadhatu is thought to be smell.
41. The tongue’s nature is emptiness.
The sphere of taste is voidness as well.
These are in essence the dharmadhatu
And are not the causes of the taste consciousness.
42. The pure body’s essence,
The characteristics of the object touched,
The tactile consciousness free of conditions—
These are called the dharmadhatu.
43. The phenomena that appear to the mental consciousness, the chief of them all,
Are conceptualized and then superimposed.
When this activity is abandoned, phenomena’s lack of self-essence is known.
Knowing this, meditate on the dharmadhatu.
44. And so is all that is seen or heard or smelled,
Tasted, touched, and imagined,
When yogis [and yoginis]* understand these in this manner,
All their wonderful qualities are brought to consummation.
45. Perception’s doors in eyes and ears and nose,
In tongue and body and the mental gate—
All these six are utterly pure.
These consciousnesses’ purity itself is suchness’ defining characteristic.
But a text that specifically deals with this topic is Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness by Khenpo Gyamptso Tsultrim Rinpoche.
http://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Meditation-Emptiness-Tsultrim-Gyamtso/dp/1877294012
everything is - how - liberation?
thats your projection....somehow you project liberation into "everything"....
your above paragraph sounds like a new age hippy talk, sorry:)
liberation cannot be achieved by simple non-dualistic mind.
the root of suffering is far deep...
non-dualistic realization - by its nature - non dualistic...so you cannot call it liberation, its false projection by positive discrimination. Non dualistic awareness is just a pure awareness...thats not liberation.
I really don't understand what are you labeling as 'liberation'...?
suchness is not liberation....in fact I go and call it 'prison'...
.
by Milarepa
I bow at the feet of my teacher Marpa.
And sing this song in response to you.
Listen, pay heed to what I say,
forget your critique for a while.
The best seeing is the way of "nonseeing" --
the radiance of the mind itself.
The best prize is what cannot be looked for --
the priceless treasure of the mind itself.
The most nourishing food is "noneating" --
the transcendent food of samadhi.
The most thirst-quenching drink is "nondrinking" --
the nectar of heartfelt compassion.
Oh, this self-realizing awareness
is beyond words and description!
The mind is not the world of children,
nor is it that of logicians.
Attaining the truth of "nonattainment,"
you receive the highest initiation.
Perceiving the void of high and low,
you reach the sublime stage.
Approaching the truth of "nonmovement,"
you follow the supreme path.
Knowing the end of birth and death,
the ultimate purpose is fulfilled.
Seeing the emptiness of reason,
supreme logic is perfected.
When you know that great and small are groundless,
you have entered the highest gateway.
Comprehending beyond good and evil
opens the way to perfect skill.
Experiencing the dissolution of duality,
you embrace the highest view.
Observing the truth of "nonobservation"
opens the way to meditating.
Comprehending beyond "ought" and "oughtn't"
opens the way to perfect action.
When you realize the truth of "noneffort,"
you are approaching the highest fruition.
Ignorant are those who lack this truth:
arrogant teachers inflated by learning,
scholars bewitched by mere words,
and yogis seduced by prejudice.
For though they yearn for freedom,
they find only enslavement.
emptiness is not anything...its just the potential to become.
because of emptiness, forms can arise and fall... but emptiness is not dependently originated...