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Islamic Terrosim in Thailand
ThailandTom
Veteran
Some of you may have heard of this, but it has happened. I had expected it to happen for a long time due to the amount of tourists we have here. Anyway, the US embassy issued a warning about 5-6 weeks ago which I took seriously but many people did not, they went on to say such thigs like typical american comspiracy etc. Anyway, Before this attack, they arrested some Lebonese terrorists but on Valentines day some guy tried throwing a 2 bombs, one at a police station and one at a school. The guy, a Lebonese or Iranian I forget now, he messed it up and one of the bombs fell on him and he blew his legs off. He subsequently died. Two other people were injured that is all, lucky IMO. But I am still surprisd that Thailand has not been targeted so much in the past due to the easiness and the tourism. Anyway, let there be peace.
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Comments
The other factor that makes me fear that Thailand is in for bad times...the King. We all know he won't be along much longer, and that is going to precipitate a mess.
Hence, madness. Period.
SPPPPPARRRRTTTTTAAAAAA
All religion express the need for peace, the golden rule, compassion, and harmony...um, balance.
Fundamentalism is the problem among a litany of other things.
Maybe Spartans would have handled things better. . . Hmm, logic.
There are many many great muslims out there, many perfectly fine people, but there are also people who live in very poor conditions and over time get brainwashed if you will into doing such things. I heard a long time ago ob Al Gezera a guy saying the terrorists are not really the main problem, it is the minds controlling them, the people who do not get their hands dirty and send these easily persuaded people in waves to blow themselves up.
At first glance, it seems like a good idea for muslims to speak out against 'islamic' terrorism - however, the flip side is much much darker and less palatable - it means that the focus is on the islam and not on the reality.
Muslims are just the fad enemy of the moment - theyre the ones standing in the way - everyone, muslim and non-muslim should rather consider the root causes of isolation, poverty, injustice, war and suffering everytime this happens - the solution lies within us collectively.
Its not the muslims - its society bursting and teetering at the seams...
Wouldn't you acknowledge there is a unique problem within the Islamic community that the members themselves must confront? Why are there no Coptic Christian suicide bombers or Zoroastrian schemers trying to enforce a theocracy in the Middle East? The solution lies within individual Muslims to counteract the cancer of Salafi jihadism.
The problem is not within the Islamic community - it takes more than one party to war - the problem is with the war not with the community - like I have said before, I have no particular interest in standing up for Muslims, my aim is to highlight the inconsistencies in the accepted view - what you consider that means is up to you.
Coptic christians and Zoroastrians do not have control of a expanse of land and resources as the Islamic world does - funding (profiteering) and media spotlight focus the world agenda - what is there to be made of Zoroastrians when there is oil and minerals and more money than you could imagine even if you tried!!
The solution lies in individual humans to not see things as cancers, black and white, duality, destruction - to just stop for one second and start again with a clear mind and heart and talk to eachother and start sharing the planet.
The playing field is made for conflict - the longer one looks at the combatants, the longer it will take for us to realise that the only solution is to stop playing and do something else!! Perhaps a nice game of chess?!!
All those men cite chapter and verse in the Koran where Muhammed ordered the slaughter of non-Muslims, resisters, subjugation of women, reduction of submitted minorities to Jim Crow-esque laws, irrational Jew hatred, and imperial expansion.
Buddhists are just as much in the sights of jihadists as are Christians.
How many freedom fighters, revolutionaries, resistance fighters, war lords, area boys, gang leaders or such do you think there are in the world? How much total media air time is there? Do you think that if a gang moves on another's turf in a random town that you will hear about it? Its all a matter of spin - so much goes on day to day that we never hear about.
Your view is galvanised by taking isolated examples to support a bigger set theory - the thing is that big theories can be easily manipulated...
Try instead to give equal credit to every isolated example on both sides and all sides and then consider the bigger picture as an amalgamated picture of the isolated composites - it is much harder to manipulate lots and lots of small pieces of information.
It cares about poverty - by fasting for a month and contemplating on the misfortune of the poor to understand their suffering
it cares about motherhood - Mohammed s.a.v. says heaven can only be found under the feet of our mothers
it cares about renounciation of unethical - by taking refuge to moral values
it cares about clear mind - by forbidding alcohol and drugs
it cares about contentment - by forbidding too much entertainment, sex, and money
it cares about humility - by teaching to show respect to one another
it cares about education - Saint Ali s.a.v says "whoever teaches me one word, I will be his slave for forty years"
and really so many other good values common to all religions....And I don't know how many muslims you met but most of the muslims I know are just people like you guys...
Political Islam, however, is very dangerous...Every religion that gets into politics can become dangerous...
The problem is that traditional Islamic doctrine, in addition to banning a number of things you mentioned, also bans changing one's religion, public expression of other religions, makes women legally worth half that of a man. I am friends with a number of Muslims who are all charming people, but I would be horrified to live under such a ghastly system legally.
governments must be secular or else we have problems...
it is not about Islam, it is about religious governments...
in this age, islamic governments are problem...in the past, catholic governments were the problem... in the future, who knows?
if we name the problem correctly then we can find the right solution...
the problem is not islam, the problem is non-secular governments...
BUT, let me tell you a little story. My adopted adult son is a Pakistani Muslim. Wonderful person and very modern in his thinking about Islam...but no mistake, he is Muslim. One evening he and his wife invited me to attend a large Pakistani party at a hotel. I was delighted to go, and much to my surprise I was a bit of a center of attention. A couple of dozen people, over the course of the evening, came up cautiously (I was the only American there) and said, "Are you Imran's father?" And when I said that I was, most would sit down and chat with me for at least a few minutes. But, without exception, each of the men would say things like, "Don't you think that 9/11 was a Jewish plot?" Or, "Do you agree that it was the CIA that blew up the World Trade Center." Every one, not a single exception. With that mindset, I don't think you're going see many Muslims speaking up...and remember, I was attending a party in Washington! So they were all Muslims who were living here permanently, or at least long term.
Oh, and one other thing I learned...that funny tasting steak, is probably from a whole goat being roasted.
I think Muslims are tired of having the 9/11 attacks brought up during a conversation in which they are being asked about their beliefs. On one hand, Muslims are asked to answer questions that a person may have about their faith with respect...and at least I do. I take that to heart. But then the attacks are brought up and the conversation turns around toward extremest...and no longer about the spirit of the faith.
I hope you were not uncomfortable...very strange that they would ask you that...it must have been soon after the attacks...I would consider that rude.
I've also visited a couple of mosques, one in Singapore, where they were very welcoming. Of course, then there was the mosque on an island in Thailand...there was a sign in front of the mosque: "Non-Muslims may not enter. But you may give money."
I love your stories... I know I've said this before but let me explain something first.
Houston has see an increase of Sunni Muslims because of the energy and oil business districts. I spend my time listening to Christian and muslim men debate in angry voices at my local Starbucks, while I sit to the side and listen while on my android...posting on NB.
I wouldn't join their debate, I have tried to do that before and these foreigners do not respect my views. Its maddening. They ask if my husband knows where I am.
I almost want to say "I know atheist with more understanding and compassion than the lot of you put together...and they do n't behave like children, shouting Scripture and verses in a public place."
Sigh, yeah...I just keep my mouth shut. I have a place here.
With my agnostic, atheist, Buddhist friends.
1. The succession will go to the Prince, things will go down hill, and the cohesive aspect of the monarchy will no longer instill loyalty to the country, thus taking away one of the 3 pillars of legitimacy.
2. The "elders" will bypass the Prince, which apparently is now possible under recent succession law changes, and Princess Sirindhorn will succeed the King..something that could be very dangerous to her. However, as I understand it, the Queen is strongly behind the Prince.
3. Thailand will drop the royalty, at least in its present role. This may very well be what many of the leaders of the Red Shirts want...at least Thaksin would...although the rank and file red shirts are pretty simple people who support the monarchy.
To right Fundamentalism is a big problem did you hear what happened to the cleric who suggested that it was the time to stop interpreting the violent verses in favour of the more peaceful ones...Then again you cannot expect much of ones followers if they believe Muhammed was a completly perfect man in his actions.
..he was only a man.
I support any effort the community has toward peace in the middle east, specially with Jews. It just sucks!
Just as an isolated example, you state that you would not want to live under such a ghastly legal system - however you have no concept of what a legal system is or what it should be - you dont understand the legal system you are under now (beyond cursory conclusions) and you certainly dont understand the shariah system.
I'm not saying this as I want you to agree with me - I am saying it as I hope that you will revisit your concrete ideas and work them out again and see if there is another view point - until we can all do that, there will be no resolution to contention - the muslims will be replaced in time with another enemy - the joke is ultimately on you.
By all means correct me. I hope I'm wrong about Sharia. But are you claiming that it DOES afford equal protection to women, religious minorities, and apostates? There are charming verses in the Koran about tolerance and peace, but they are abrogated by Muhammed and Allah's own words later. It has been part of Islam since the beginning that later revelations that conflicted automatically cancel out preceding ones. Unfortunately, the "each to his own religion" verses were early in Muhammed's career.
Consider reading the autobiographies of Nonie Darwish, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, or Ibn Warraq, apostates all who left their Sharia societies and found refuge in the tolerant West. They would all strongly disagree with you.
So instead of a “set higher theory” being taken as gospel and then searching for the little bits of evidence – focus on the little bits of evidence and leave the big theory to itself – when you have enough bits of info then you can move to seeing what kind of picture that builds – you don’t have to make a solid conclusion, just an approximation on the best facts possible.
In addition, if you find yourself in a dead end (i.e. the problem is with the muslims) – look again and see the other side – remember that there is an ‘agenda’ at play in world politics and it is easy to manipulate big statements like “it’s the muslims” – it is virtually impossible to manipulate every last bit of small information – this technique will allow you to form a more balanced view point.
I am grateful to you for your recommends – that said, you are relying on others’ interpretation of their life – you are taking someone else’s word for it and you are placing your faith in their interpretation and integrity – however you know nothing about the people and their personal motivation – I’ll give you a couple of quick examples, I know of a couple of people who have written books – both are good people – their books made certain points about the society in which they grew up – the conclusions however are completely off – the first chap considers that he was persecuted in his home country due to his historic religious beliefs and his family’s position which threatened the country (the truth however is closer to his family being the weaker party in a power struggle and then being kicked out and stripped of their assets which they stole in the first place) – the grudge therefore is that their family no longer has the money and position of power (but if you consider history carefully, their family were usurpers and profiteers anyway)… the second person painted a certain picture of her upbringing – it was skewed by various allegations made by her that helped her book to sell but had no basis in reality – this changed the entire image and ethos of the book and presented a false negative image – so if you had read these books you may think what a horrible country, persecuting people for their religious beliefs, taking their hard earned assets and then murdering them – but the truth is nothing like that – it is much more opaque and there are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.
You state that the Koran says this and that – unless you are an Arabic scholar and you are able to read and understand the Koran in Arabic then trust me when I say that you don’t have clue what the Koran says! You are confusing the Koran with the cultural and political interpretations attributed to the Koran – they have nothing to do with Islam – it is akin to you considering the bible (inc the old testament) and then looking at one section of the community who may be Christian and saying, ‘in the bible it says that if you wear a cloth of 2 weaves then you must be executed’ so therefore these people or class of people are the problem… that is grossly simplifying the issue to a point where no productive discussion is possible.
I say this because your interpretation of the legal system you are subject to is skewed – your understanding of Shariah law and the principles of the Koran are also skewed – for example, the greatest criticism of the English legal system is that it is not victim-centric (this causes various philosophical paradoxes) whereas the Shariah system is – this is much more of an ‘advanced’ doctrine on the part of Shariah Law.
It suits political ends to paint an enemy – you hate them and their system trains them to hate you – while you both hate and misunderstand each other there is no hope of a resolution – forming galvanised views and following the masses in being spoon fed just feeds into the problem – it will never end this way – if we are serious about a resolution, then we need each of us to look at ourselves and correct our approach – if everyone in the world did this individually then there would be no conflict left – it is up to each and everyone of us to look at ourselves rather than to point the finger.
That's a curious argument to make: "You are wrong, but I'm not going to correct you and tell you why your points are invalid...they are. And you need to correct them."
I would love to have a frank and open discussion in a specific thread devoted to it on Sharia and political Islam.
That said, I have read the Koran, and I can read Arabic and speak it to some limited degree. Muhammed, while not divine, is considered the "perfect human example," so anything he did or authorized is halal. ALL the Islamic schools of jurisprudence, including Hanbali and the like, agree that jihad warfare is mandated by Allah in the pursuit of the implementation of Sharia.
Wherever Sharia is implemented, be it in Afghanistan, the Kingdom, or elsewhere, it spells doom for non-Muslims or those insufficiently Muslim. Payment of the jizya tax for non-Muslims, stoning for adultery, imprisonment for sexual crimes; zina for women. Death for apostasy is a given. Pray tell which Islamic school of jurisprudence disagrees with any of this?
"Muslims" are not the problem, but political Islam/Islamism certainly is a huge problem for Thai Buddhists, Egyptian Christians, the handful of Jews in the Maghreb, and others. This is not a "political" statement to make, but a simple, undeniable matter of fact. I have pointed out where you require correction. Have I been specific enough to convince you? ; )
IMO the solution is to help these countries develop economically. When the citizens have financial power, intellectual power and political power flow out of that and moderation begins to take hold because the majority of people don't want the chaos of war disrupting their prosperity.
Now, to your post...are you saying we should financially assist Iran and we'll all live happily ever after?
To the second point, economic development doesn't only come in the form of cash payments. Iran, as well as other countries, are complex and the solution needs to be complex as well. Are you saying that we should invade Iran and we'll all live happily ever after? I doubt it, but my original point was that just because we don't agree with a government or societies norms doesn't give us the right to forcibly change it.