was buddha sexist, ancient or a timeless realist?

WallyB

i was reading some gender debates on another forum just now, with our dear Fede a primary participant

then i saw the quote, posted below, allegedly by buddha

was buddha sexist, ancient or realist? is the following quote 'guidance' or an 'insult'?

Anguttara Nikāya

28. The Aims of People

“And what Master Gotama, is a woman’s aim?”

“A man, O brahmin, is a woman’s aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination.”

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208.pdf

Dakini

haha Fede asked yesterday on one of the threads, when "Was the BUddha a sexist" was going to come up! Somewhere I read recently a comment that he was sexist in the beginning, but came around eventually, and not only accepted women into the monastic life, but also asserted that women are capable of becoming arhats.

"Her aim is domination", "her aim is a man, her mainstay is sons"--wow, is that a piece of projection, or what!

(Oh well. I guess this is better than fighting about religions and fundamentalism. :-/ )

Zero

The Blessed One apparently also asked who was indeed the foolish inexperience woman with a woman's wit!! There's also some interesting stuff in there on how women can avoid being reborn in deep hell... Now if we could only slap a beard on it and get it on the news it might sell a few papers.... :scratch:

Lady_Alison

Yup, that's pretty much how I got a husband!

i was reading some gender debates on another forum just now, with our dear Fede a primary participant

then i saw the quote, posted below, allegedly by buddha

was buddha sexist, ancient or realist? is the following quote 'guidance' or an 'insult'?

Anguttara Nikāya

28. The Aims of People

“And what Master Gotama, is a woman’s aim?”

“A man, O brahmin, is a woman’s aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination.”

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208.pdf

Dakini

The Blessed One apparently also asked who was indeed the foolish inexperience woman with a woman's wit!! There's also some interesting stuff in there on how women can avoid being reborn in deep hell...

Could you give us a reference to this? Sounds intriguing.

vinlyn

Yup, that's pretty much how I got a husband!

i was reading some gender debates on another forum just now, with our dear Fede a primary participant

then i saw the quote, posted below, allegedly by buddha

was buddha sexist, ancient or realist? is the following quote 'guidance' or an 'insult'?

Anguttara Nikāya

28. The Aims of People

“And what Master Gotama, is a woman’s aim?”

“A man, O brahmin, is a woman’s aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination.”

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208.pdf

You're making my vow of abstinence much more difficult. :rarr:

Dakini

It's just a cartoon. Most real women don't look like that. Go down to the Post Office or the Motor Vehicles Dept., and take a look around. That should put you back on track.

Lady_Alison

Lol. Silly!

Lady_Alison

Anatomically incorrect ...

vinlyn

Anatomically incorrect ...

va va va voom

vinlyn

It's just a cartoon. Most real women don't look like that. Go down to the Post Office or the Motor Vehicles Dept., and take a look around. That should put you back on track.

Oh gee, thanks. Back to abstinence.

Dakini

haha ^_^

Get yourself a Barbie doll, if you need one. They were originally made for men, you know. Not the Mattel ones, the German ones that "Barbie" was a copy of.

Lady_Alison

@vinlyn ... how long have you practiced abstinence.? I guess not much of a practice but a way of life. It is intriguing.

Lady_Alison

@dakini as the saying goes : you really know how to kill a wet dream

It's just a cartoon. Most real women don't look like that. Go down to the Post Office or the Motor Vehicles Dept., and take a look around. That should put you back on track.

Oh gee, thanks. Back to abstinence.

vinlyn

@vinlyn ... how long have you practiced abstinence.? I guess not much of a practice but a way of life. It is intriguing.

Actually, I was just joking...at least in terms of voluntary abstinence!

Lady_Alison

Oh haha!

Dakini

There's a saying? I've never heard that one. Oh well...whatever works.

Lady_Alison

haha ^_^

Get yourself a Barbie doll, if you need one. They were originally made for men, you know. Not the Mattel ones, the German ones that "Barbie" was a copy of.

That cartoon looks Amazonian

Lady_Alison

haha ^_^

Get yourself a Barbie doll, if you need one. They were originally made for men, you know. Not the Mattel ones, the German ones that "Barbie" was a copy of.

That cartoon looks Amazonian

vinlyn

Well, actually I have to correct myself. Over the past 5 years, I have gotten very good about being mindful of the Precept about sex. That, combined with my age, has reduced my activity significantly.

Lady_Alison

I will be so glad when my eggs expire.

nanimo

OK...:wtf:

Never figured NB for a place to see a kinky drawing, but hey I guess if it gets the point across it's appropriate.

I fail to see why it matters whether he was or not. We all know he encouraged women to be nuns if they were so inclined to (i.e. the case of his stepmother and wife) so what does it matter? If he was sexist then he cast off that distinction, and if he wasn't then he "put his money where his mouth was" so to speak.

vinlyn

OK...:wtf:

Never figured NB for a place to see a kinky drawing, but hey I guess if it gets the point across it's appropriate.

I fail to see why it matters whether he was or not. We all know he encouraged women to be nuns if they were so inclined to (i.e. the case of his stepmother and wife) so what does it matter? If he was sexist then he cast off that distinction, and if he wasn't then he "put his money where his mouth was" so to speak.

Is that true? Interesting, because in Thailand there is no recognition of Buddhist nuns, although they do exist.

Dakini

Yes, as I posted earlier, he accepted nuns and said that women were capable of becoming arhats.

Full ordination for Buddhist nuns is problematic, in part because they have to take more vows than monks, so supposedly monks aren't qualified to ordain them. Fully-ordained nuns from Taiwan have been ordaining Thai nuns and Tibetan nuns.

vinlyn

And there are nuns ("mae chee") that you will see at some Buddhist temples in Thailand, but they have no official recognition. They typically dress all in white.

raine

That picture appears more to represent feminism than sexism. Or is that just my interpretation?

Lady_Alison

@raine I totally agree. I didn't see it as kinky at all. I saw it as a social statement...I am woman, hear me roar!

person

@vinlyn Since the Buddha did allow women to become nuns and there are full ordination vows available for women its my opinion that any subordination or neglect of women in Buddhism is more a result of culture than something inherent in the religion.

Dakini

Why can't men and women just get along? Why does one have to dominate the other?

vinlyn

@vinlyn Since the Buddha did allow women to become nuns and there are full ordination vows available for women its my opinion that any subordination or neglect of women in Buddhism is more a result of culture than something inherent in the religion.

I'm not sure that's exactly true in Thailand. They have a female Prime Minister and women are often in decent corporate positions. I wish I had paid more attention to the issue when I was there.

person

@vinlyn Since the Buddha did allow women to become nuns and there are full ordination vows available for women its my opinion that any subordination or neglect of women in Buddhism is more a result of culture than something inherent in the religion.

I'm not sure that's exactly true in Thailand. They have a female Prime Minister and women are often in decent corporate positions. I wish I had paid more attention to the issue when I was there.

In TB there are only novice vows available for women and they are subordinate to the monks.

Are there even any nuns in Thailand? If women do hold an equal status in lay life does the lack of nuns there have more to do with Therevada? I don't want to be disparaging if there's no connection but my knowledge here is nil.

Dakini

That's very interesting, thanx for sharing. But we don't know if the PM and the corporate women are Buddhists. Do we? There probably aren't any women serving on those national-level Buddhist oversight organizations you've (@vinlyn) mentioned before, the ones that decide whether to sanction monastics for inappropriate behavior or corruption.

There was a huge controversy over one of the Western Theravada monks who was ordaining nuns, wasn't there? I don't know if that related to Thailand or Sri Lanka, or where.

bodhipunk

There was a huge controversy over one of the Western Theravada monks who was ordaining nuns, wasn't there? I don't know if that related to Thailand or Sri Lanka, or where.

It was Thai. Two of those nuns ordained stay at the Aloka Vihara in San Fransisco. It is being funded and supported by the Saranaloka Foundation: http://www.saranaloka.org

Dakini

That's so great! They'll be leading retreats at Spirit Rock this year, it says. They have to stay in the West in order to be accepted? Or are they Westerners? As far as I could tell, they looked Western in the photo. Thanks for the info, @bodhipunk.

bodhipunk

They are Western. Ayya Anandabodhi, with whom I've kept in correspondence with from time to time, is from Wales. Ayya Santacitta is from Austria. Their preceptor was Venerable Tathaaloka Theri from Washington, DC. I believe she was like the second woman to be designated as a Bhikkhuni preceptor in the Forest Tradition. I'm not really sure if they have to stay in the West to be accepted or not. If that is the case, hopefully that will change some day.

Dakini

Well, I remember someone who ordained some nuns in a Thai tradition suffered some sort of excommunication, or something.

nanimo

It may be an image of feminism, ladies. I can't speak to what Wally B's perception of it was but I suspect it was to emphasize female dominance because the guy appears to be tied up. Thus I labelled it kinky as in unusual for this forum. I don't recall seeing anything even approaching the forcefullness of it on this forum before.

vinlyn

That's very interesting, thanx for sharing. But we don't know if the PM and the corporate women are Buddhists. Do we? There probably aren't any women serving on those national-level Buddhist oversight organizations you've (@vinlyn) mentioned before, the ones that decide whether to sanction monastics for inappropriate behavior or corruption.

There was a huge controversy over one of the Western Theravada monks who was ordaining nuns, wasn't there? I don't know if that related to Thailand or Sri Lanka, or where.

95%+ of the population is Buddhist, and virtually all the Muslims (who make up most of the rest of the population) live in southern Thailand. Yes, we do know that the PM is Buddhist.

Dakini

I agree with you there, nanimo. And notice that the guy is drawn as a regular schmo, but the woman is highly idealized and eroticized.

@vinlyn OK, but those women are in secular leadership positions. Are there any women in religious leadership positions?

I only asked if they were Buddhist, because we had a thread here a year ago about porn and sex trafficking in Buddhist countries, and some people posted that Japan and Thailand weren't Buddhist countries, exactly. But Thailand sounds like it is, if the statistic you gave is true.

bodhipunk

I remember Ven. Ajahn Brahm was excommunicated for ordaining nuns in Australia. He said something along the lines that, "Thai Sangha law does not extend out of Thailand." Ven. Ajahn Sumedho also established a ten precept ordination lineage for women called "Siladhara". The two nuns, Ayya Anandabodhi and Ayya Santacitta, where originally a part of the Siladhara but they took a leave to pursue full Bhikkhuni ordination under Ven. Tathaaloka Theri (who was ordained with Ven. Ajahn Brahm's and Ven. Ajahn Sujato's certification).

Dakini

Thanks for the report. This is good news, movement in the right direction, at least.

Zero

The Blessed One apparently also asked who was indeed the foolish inexperience woman with a woman's wit!! There's also some interesting stuff in there on how women can avoid being reborn in deep hell...

Could you give us a reference to this? Sounds intriguing.

If you open the document and type 'woman' into the search box it will take you to it - there is a section that deals with not judging others (where the woman's wit point is made) and a section that deals with the 7 types of wife that will helpfully assist in avoiding deep hell...

RichardH

was buddha sexist, ancient or realist? is the following quote 'guidance' or an 'insult'?

2500 years ago... roughly .... the Battle of Thermopylae .... .......Darius I......
.....Birth of the Roman republic ..... .......end of the bronze age in some places....

vote.....ancient.

caz

Gee Buddha was pretty spot on if you generalize.

Talisman

How in the world could the Buddha be a sexist? Sexims implies discernment. The Buddha has brought to it's cessation the process of discernment and only acts accordingly to each individual situation. When the Sangha was formed, there was a lot of danger for women who wished to leave the protection of their fathers and husbands.

They were liable to be raped, abused, or even killed while living in the wilds (the buddha's desciples were encouraged to take solitary retreat into the wilderness). When his aunt along with many other women proved their fortitude to him, he agreed that in fact some women did have what it took to live and thrive in the monastic tradition. In the same way that he originally did not intend to teach anyone at all but found that some men were able to be taught, so he changed his mind.

If anything, the Buddha was a harbinger of change and a voice of equality and reason in a time when women were strictly forbidden from entering the Brahma caste and were always considered secondary to their masculine counterparts. they were baby-makers, and maintained the houses of men. The fact that the Buddha offered refuge and a path to liberation to men and women alike was groundbreaking.

IMO, any amount of discrimination in the sangha today is the reult of ignoble partiarchal practitioners corrupting the Dhamma to meet their own ends.

Jason

Is that true? Interesting, because in Thailand there is no recognition of Buddhist nuns, although they do exist.

The Buddha did indeed ordain both men and women. The reason the ecclesiastics in Thailand don't recognize the current bhikkhuni ordinations is because the bhikkhuni order died out a long time ago (and was never established in Thailand), and according to the rules set forth in the Vinaya, there needs to be a full quorum of both fully ordained bhikkhus and bhikkhunis for the ordination to be considered valid. (The 'nuns' or mae chees in Thailand aren't fully ordained, they've only taken the eight precepts.) Sri Lankan monks have been less concerned with the letter than the spirit of the rules, however, and have conducted ordinations with bhikkhunis from other traditions (i.e., the Dharmagupta lineage) or with just the quorum of bhikkhus, instituting a new bhikkhuni sangha that's now taking part in the ordinations themselves. As for whether or not the Buddha was sexist, anyone interested can find my thoughts here.

RichardH

@Jason. Thank you for the link. That reads reasonable and uncontroversial to these eyes.

... The first comment you got gave me a terrifying flashback though.... :eek:

vinlyn

Is that true? Interesting, because in Thailand there is no recognition of Buddhist nuns, although they do exist.

The Buddha did indeed ordain both men and women. The reason the ecclesiastics in Thailand don't recognize the current bhikkhuni ordinations is because the bhikkhuni order died out a long time ago (and was never established in Thailand), and according to the rules set forth in the Vinaya, there needs to be a full quorum of both fully ordained bhikkhus and bhikkhunis for the ordination to be considered valid. (The 'nuns' or mae chees in Thailand aren't fully ordained, they've only taken the eight precepts.) Sri Lankan monks have been less concerned with the letter than the spirit of the rules, however, and have conducted ordinations with bhikkhunis from other traditions (i.e., the Dharmagupta lineage) or with just the quorum of bhikkhus, instituting a new bhikkhuni sangha that's now taking part in the ordinations themselves. As for whether or not the Buddha was sexist, anyone interested can find my thoughts here.

I think that's what disturbs people about the Thai status quo...rules versus principles.

WallyB

I think that's what disturbs people about the Thai status quo...rules versus principles.

often Westerners looking down upon another cultures, believing themselves to be superior. but Thai social culture is far superior to Western culture, with far superior social cohesiveness, far superior family units and far superior self-esteem in children

if we have no real insight into Thai culture, including the cultural role & scope of Thai monasticism and the respective cultural roles of men & women, our personal prejudices (agati) will continue to disturb us about this issue

the 20th century saw many (so-called) Buddhist masters in Thailand, such as Ajahn Chah, Buddhadasa, Maha-Boowa, etc. none of these monks actively supported a bhikkhuni order given they saw it unnecessary for enlightenment

Thai monasticism is a massive system, with the majority of monks robed for social, cultural & superstitious purposes. such a system simply cannot economically cope with women entering this system, which is reliant upon donations

vinlyn

I think that's what disturbs people about the Thai status quo...rules versus principles.

often Westerners looking down upon another cultures, believing themselves to be superior. but Thai social culture is far superior to Western culture, with far superior social cohesiveness, far superior family units and far superior self-esteem in children

if we have no real insight into Thai culture, including the cultural role & scope of Thai monasticism and the respective cultural roles of men & women, our personal prejudices (agati) will continue to disturb us about this issue

the 20th century saw many (so-called) Buddhist masters in Thailand, such as Ajahn Chah, Buddhadasa, Maha-Boowa, etc. none of these monks actively supported a bhikkhuni order given they saw it unnecessary for enlightenment

Wally, I'm not looking down on Thai culture. I chose to live there for a while, and had it not been for the riots of a couple of years ago, would be living there still. I admire many things about Thai culture, including, as you mention, a generally admirable family cohesiveness...despite the not totally uncommon practice of selling daughters into prostitution. There are many who would say that Thai children -- particularly boys -- are rather spoiled and have an unrealistic self-esteem.

If you bothered to actually read what I wrote, rather than just looking for a way to talk down to me, you'd realize that all I was questioning was the Supreme Sangha rules against formalizing the status of the mae chee, as compared to a more modern view of how women are treated.

raine

@nanimo There is no doubt in my mind that picture is most certainly kinky and probably used on a fetish site.
I still see it as feminism.