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Jesus Christ

2

Comments

  • edited March 2012
    Here we go again. Excerpt from "Journey Into Kashmir and Tibet", by Swami Abhedananda, who found and translated the "Jesus texts" in Hemis Monastery, Ladakh:

    "Issa stepped into his thirteenth year by and by. According to the national custom of the Israelites, this is the right age for matrimony. His parents lived the life of humble folks. Their humble cottage came to be crowded with people proud of wealth and pedigree. Each of them was eager to accept Issa as his son-in-law. Issa was unwilling to marry. He had already earned fame through his expounding the true nature of God. At the proposal of marriage he resolved to leave the house of his father in secret.

    At this time his great desire was to achieve full realization of god-head and learn religion at the feet of those who have attained perfection through meditation. He left Jerusalem and started on a journey to Sind in the company of a band of merchants. These merchants procured various commodities from Sind and exported the same to different lands.

    At the age of fourteen he (Issa) crossed Sind and entered the holy land of the Aryans. As he was passing all along through the land of the five rivers, his benign appearance, face radiating peace and comely forehead attracted Jain devotees who knew him to be one who had received blessings from God Himself. And they requested him to stay with them in their monastery. But he turned down their request. At this time he did not like to accept anyone's service.

    In course of time he arrived at Jagannath Dham (Puri), the abode of Vyasa Krishna, and became the disciple of the Brahmins. He endeared himself to all and learnt how to read, understand and expound the Vedas.

    After this we went on pilgrimage to Rajagriha, Benares, etc. This took six years and then he started for Kapilavastu, the place where Buddha had been born. Then he spent six years in the company of Buddhist mendicants, mastered Pali to perfection and studied all the Buddhist scriptures. From here he went to Nepal and travelled in the Himalayan region. Then he went westwards.

    By and by he came to Persia, the abode of Zoroastrians. His fame soon spread in all directions. Thus he returned to his native land once again at the age of twenty nine. After this he started preaching his message of peace among his brethren suffering under oppression."

    Some interesting passages from a more complete translation of the Hemis texts, by Nicholas Notovich:

    "Issa denied the divine origin of the Vedas and the Puranas. 'For' taught he to his followers, 'a law has already been given to man to guide him in his actions: Fear thy God, bend the knee before him only, and bring to him alone the offerings which proceed from thy gains.' Issa denied the Trimurti and the incarnation of Para-Brahma in Vishnu, Siva and other gods, for said he: 'The Judge Eternal, the Eternal Spirit, comprehends the one and indivisible soul of the universe, which alone creates, contains and vivifies all. He alone has willed and created, he alone has existed since all eternity, and his existence will have no end.' ...

    'Those who deprive their brethren of divine happiness shall be deprived of it themselves. The Brahmans and the Kshatriyas shall become the Sudras, and with the Sudras the Eternal shall dwell everlastingly. Because in the day of the last judgment the Sudras and the Vaisyas will be forgiven much because of their ignorance, while God, on the contrary, will punish with his wrath those who have arrogated to themselves his rights.'
    ...

    Then he left Nepal and the Himalayan mountains, descended into the valley of Rajputana, and went towards the west, preaching to diverse peoples the supreme perfection of man. Which is--to do good to one's neighbor, being the sure means of merging oneself rapidly in the Eternal Spirit: 'He who shall have regained his original purity,' Said Issa, 'will die having obtained remission for his sins, and he will have the right to contemplate the majesty of God' ...
    'Help the poor, support the weak do ill to no one and covet not that which thou hast not and which thou seest belongeth to another'."

    (Sudras and Vaisyas are probably low-caste groups. Jesus was known for preaching to the lowest castes.)
  • edited March 2012
    I just found this:
    (video) on Jesus in India. An American Zen monk says some Vietnamese Zen monks showed him a text about Jesus in India, so he went to Kashmir to check out the story about a Tibetan text on Jesus in India, and found it.
    I don't know how to take this guy. At least he photographed the texts he claims discuss Jesus (Issa). The Vietnamese one looks Chinese. Are there any Chinese or Tibetan readers on the forum who could check the veracity of this man's claims? He says the Hemis text is in Sanskrit, but all other reports say it's in Tibetan. Internet searches on him only turned up a website, and his association with a New Age satelite TV program.

  • @person the doctor who phone Booth!

    Buddhists may find enlightenment through various practices including self contemplation a nd empathy with the world around them. An awareness of one self, an appreciation of nature and natural sciences are a pathway to God for the Gnostic. Most Christian Gnostics saw Jesus christ, not as God, but as the man who illuminated that pathway, in the same way as Gautama Buddha and Mohammed (pbuh) are understood by THEIR followers.

    Gnostic Gospels have been around atleast as long as the new testament Gospels. Writen in Coptic script they were unearthed in December 1947 near nag hammadi in upper Egypt. Dated from350 -400 ad, many more about 300 years older.

    I think I wrote a little about Jesus voted into godhood.

    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/14541/chomsky-on-liberation-theology-and-the-philosophy-of-the-christian-gospels#Item_9

    Haha! I guess I'm making you guys read!
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2012
    @Lady_Alison Where did you get the info that Constantine was a Sun god worshipper, even as he convened the first Church Council?

    Have you read the Gnostic Gospels? They don't agree with each other on all details. Neither do the Bible's 4 Gospels, I guess.
  • http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

    Hopefully you can see it..it's mobile

    I know they don't agree..lol...but regardless quite interesting.
    @Lady_Alison Where did you get the info that Constantine was a Sun god worshipper, even as he convened the first Church Council?

    Have you read the Gnostic Gospels? They don't agree with each other on all details. Neither do the Bible's 4 Gospels, I guess.
  • I read it in Hiram, by lomas and Knight.

    Remember that history has various pov but I will summarize what I remember :

    Constantine was interested in the god of the Christians, whom he saw as a manifastation of his existing god, Sol Invictus...and he saw as Jewish Messiah, just as he felt Messiah of his empire.

    He considered christ to be a war like figure and sacred like himself who fought to establish God's rule.

    His conversion is told at the battle of Milvian Bridge : where he followed a prophetic dream and painted the symbols of the true god on the shields of his army.

    He has been hailed by Christians as a great leader who defeated the heretics...but the death of his Co emperor, thereby making him the only true emperor, the results of The Nicene Creed, which reconciled the differences between the Christian sects was a strategic move to ensure the continual power of rome.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ...

    Remember that history has various pov but I will summarize what I remember :

    ...
    Probably the most important thing that has been said in this thread!

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    hm...Constantine was interesting. He converted to Christianity, but maintained his sun worship at the same time, and ended up combining sun worship with Christianity. By moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sun=day, for example. And turning pagan holidays into Christian ones, such as Easter. He moved Jesus' birthday from Jan. 6 to the pagan solstice holiday, Dec. 25. Interesting character.
  • His mother, Helena was a convert...she wanted all holy sites to be identified and sent groups to investigate and seek artifacts...

    Lol...coincidentally her subjects stumbled upon the "true cross " complete with pontius Pilates plaque....hmmm

    Christianity certainly had practical values to be publicly celebrated within the imperial family and throughout the empire.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Why did Constantine's father divorce Helena?
  • He was crucified to share the truth as he saw it. I think a Buddha is someone who can liberate beings from suffering. A lot of Christians take the blood sacrifice as a blank check. I don't like to judge anyone though lest I judge myself. It's complex this dance between judgement and freedom. The alchemy is up to the people I think and I do believe there is a virtue and point to Christ's teaching. I don't like the commandment about 'false idols', however.
  • A forgery called "donation of constamtine" was found in the 8th century that supposesly claimed that constantine had left instructions that the church of Rome should be absolute authority in secular affairs because St Peter, the successor of Jesus as leader of the church, had passes such authority to the Bishop of Rome.

    This is accepted now as a forgery but the church clings to it so we leave it at that.

    It is interesting to note that James, (sorry dakini I thought it was john but I just looked over notes) the younger brother of Jesus, took the leadership role of the Jerusalem church.

    The first ten bishops of the Jerusalem church were, according to Eusenius, all circumcised Jews who kept dietary laws and used Jewish liturgy for daily prayer. They recognized Sabbath and festivals including the DAY OF ATTONEMENT. Clearly, they did not regard the death of Jesus as atoning for sins.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2012
    What does it mean, to "take the blood sacrifice as a blank check"?

    I just read that Easter used to be about fertility (eggs, bunnies) and a goddess who resurrected at the beginning of spring, symbolizing renewal, fertility, growth. It was Emperor Constantine who turned Easter into a Christian holiday. Blood sacrifice sounds pretty pagan, though, doesn't it?

    What is the Day of Atonement? Was that a Jewish observance of some sort?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2012
    Ah. He needed a wife with more powerful connections. Thx.
    Clearly, they did not regard the death of Jesus as atoning for sins.
    Maybe they didn't believe he'd died. Maybe they knew he'd skipped town to save his life.

    If it turns out it's true he lived out his life in India and is buried in Kashmir, that's gonna be HUGE! I hope I live to see the day. Wouldn't that be wild?

  • Lol...just like a child, dakini.

    Those notes are in the other room with my sleeping husband.

    I will have to review. I have read more than I care to remember...rain check? It is much longer so I will need to review.
  • I'm hidding from another caliguy819 carlcarl....lol

    Agh!
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement, the holiest and most solemn day of the Jewish year, according to wiki. So, no need to disturb the sleeping hubby. :)
  • Dakini, the blank check is that you can do things you probably shouldn't because you are saved.

    Now just as morality and good judgement doesn't stem from religion the 'blank check' does not make people foolish as I feel self-forgiveness can help a person get past some yucky shit.

    But I have met some Christians who were not so good people yet they touted their faith. I think it's double edged. It happens in Buddhism too.

    Yet the mandala of awakening should reach out to all manner of sins. Drug use. Mentally ill. Uneducated. It doesn't take anything much to flash bodhicitta even for an instant. Unfortunately the other mandalas that come from ego can take center stage and the 'blood sacrifice' can be a rationalization rather than true forgiveness.

    And forgiveness is a good thing. But some people use their religion to avoid personal developement. Ignore. When the forgiveness isn't true forgiveness.

    Pema Chodron teaches that gentleness and the four imeasurables: friendliness, love, warmth, and an open heart cradle the shaking mind.

    This is like Jesus.

    But honesty and the guts to see our 'shit' is also part of life. Just saying 'aw hell' and doing things that make you unhappy IN THIS LIFE can be promoted by a mentality of narrow-mindedness in the case of fundamentalism or hedonism ie out of bounds. Witness the politician Christians and so forth.

    But it's hard to say that these faults are due to Christianity.

    Dakini, I'm not drunk or anything I am not a drinker anymore but I had a good meeting with my psychiatrist and I feel relieved and a little loose.

    Blood sacrifice is drinking the wine as Jesus' blood and the wafer as his body. It's a mystery. I never did the training of the Christian. My church all we learned were stories and sex ed. And I was an outsider who often hid in the bathroom because I felt disconnected from the other kids who were from a rich area of town and none of my friends went to my Church.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Dakini, the blank check is that you can do things you probably shouldn't because you are saved.
    I'm still trying to understand this. So it means that some people think, basically, that Jesus did their penance for them, so they're home free? They can pass GO, collect hundreds of dollars, and party the rest of their lives? Is that what you're saying? Have you known people like this?

  • Yes! Jeffrey has some said some truths about modern Christian ideology about attonement...more on that later.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2012
    Drinking wine as Jesus' blood and a wafer as his body is too weird for me. I mean, eeewww! :p (oops, sorry, I hope I haven't offended anyone. :eek2: ) But visualizing that is too much.

  • Wait is this a compliment or are you trying to say something ... huh? I'm slow...you mean because of the links the op failed to post?
    ...

    Remember that history has various pov but I will summarize what I remember :

    ...
    Probably the most important thing that has been said in this thread!

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2012
    Dakini, the blank check is that you can do things you probably shouldn't because you are saved.
    I'm still trying to understand this. So it means that some people think, basically, that Jesus did their penance for them, so they're home free? They can pass GO, collect hundreds of dollars, and party the rest of their lives? Is that what you're saying? Have you known people like this?

    Yes and yes. But the party ends and, there, religion still can be built upon. Also just some 'not my types' and also truly bad news people. I have a bad attitude towards Christianity though. Some parratoed form my father, yeah I'll blame my childhood. When that childhood ends nobody knows :lol:
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2012
    OK, listen gang, it says in John that after Jesus left the tomb, his disciples didn't believe he was alive, and he told them to touch his flesh and feel the wound in his side, as proof that he was alive. So doesn't that mean that he didn't die? He wasn't in spirit form, he was flesh, he had survived his ordeal, and he told his disciples he was still alive. Right?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Wait is this a compliment or are you trying to say something ... huh? I'm slow...you mean because of the links the op failed to post?
    ...

    Remember that history has various pov but I will summarize what I remember :

    ...
    Probably the most important thing that has been said in this thread!

    No, I just mean that I think a lot of folks think history is fact, but actually it is riddled with points of view...which of course can color everything.

  • Lady_AlisonLady_Alison Veteran
    edited March 2012
    Judaism and Islam forbid drinking the blood of sacrificed animals...you would think that Christianity, a Jewish sect/cult/branch would have adopted this in. Judaic thought views blood as the seat of life and it is sacred. Sometime they have made it synonymous with red wine.. traditionally, only a levite priest (Jesus time) could burn the offering to Yahweh. Only they were considered pure enough to enter the inner temple. After the blessing, the blood of the animal was sprinkled on the altar...ANYTHING THAT TOUCHED THE BLESSED OFFERING WAS CONSIDERED HOLY. But remember these priests followed laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus...laws interpreted after the ten commandments were given to Moses.

    What do we understand about interpretation?

    In Genesis a priest Melchizedek, offered hospitality to Abraham and offered bread and wine as a sacrifice to Abraham's god, and God accepted.

    The mass does seem a little strange...in the sense that you are eating the flesh and blood of a man, symbolically.
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    Was Jesus a Buddha? Does that mean he was awake or enlightened?
    He found "it," his thing, that which gives meaning or purpose in this life. So from that perspective, sure.
    My son is a cub scout. In his Wolf book they were talking about duty to God. In my discussion with him i mixed in all kinds of beliefs from different faiths. When we got down to it, his (my son) duty consisted of love, compassion and doing what was right.
    If Jesus' teachings help guide people, give them hope, a sense of being and purpose then I would say he is a Buddha. He chose to shine light in this darkness-very few people can claim that.
  • Sure, Jesus was a Buddha or Bodhisattva....why not?

  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    I'm not going to get right into reading all this ... I don't have a time machine but I can recommend a book.

    I like how Alan Watts was talking about Jesus's statement:

    My yoke is easy and my burden is light.

    Yoke meaning yoga. To join, yoke together, unionize.

    Just a thought.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    how does that work, then....?

    "My joining together, unionising, clinging together, is easy, my burden is light."

    What are you trying to define, by this interpretation?
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    Jesus practiced meditation or yoga.

    Defining Jesus as a yogi.

    I guess its not that incredible or off the wall idea.

    I think yoke was something used in a carriage to join two parts. Yoga means to join.
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    As far as interpreting it on a scale as what his message is... I don't know I don't even know the context of the passage.

    Anyways, not to hijack the thread.
  • Some people compared the similarity between the two e.g. virgin birth.



  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Dakini, the blank check is that you can do things you probably shouldn't because you are saved.
    I've never heard of this, but I don't seem to run into the same kind of Christians that other people here do.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    ......I have a bad attitude towards Christianity though. Some parratoed form my father, yeah I'll blame my childhood. When that childhood ends nobody knows :lol:
    @Jeffrey, when you realise it's a really heavy piece of baggage you're carrying around all by yourself, (because nobody is compelling you to, other than you...) and you finally decide to put it down.

    That's when.

    Stop blaming your past for the way you think today.
    that's not a reason.
    That's a crutch.
  • (the link was from some dudes essay on the net.. sry i'll quote sources next time, i don't know if I can find it again )
  • OK, listen gang, it says in John that after Jesus left the tomb, his disciples didn't believe he was alive, and he told them to touch his flesh and feel the wound in his side, as proof that he was alive. So doesn't that mean that he didn't die? He wasn't in spirit form, he was flesh, he had survived his ordeal, and he told his disciples he was still alive. Right?
    Not in mos

    ......I have a bad attitude towards Christianity though. Some parratoed form my father, yeah I'll blame my childhood. When that childhood ends nobody knows :lol:
    @Jeffrey, when you realise it's a really heavy piece of baggage you're carrying around all by yourself, (because nobody is compelling you to, other than you...) and you finally decide to put it down.

    That's when.

    Stop blaming your past for the way you think today.
    that's not a reason.
    That's a crutch.
    Federica, that was a venting of humor. Perhaps you see more deeply into my nature or behaviour, rather, than I do. So I gotta respect your opinion.

    Sometimes I puzzle about my past. But believe me I am pretty much a present moment kind of guy. With fear as a bonus. It happens. I'll get back to you when I am a Buddha, regarding how my past relates to now.

    Jeff
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Fair enough.
    On all counts.

    :)
  • Jesus was not a Buddhist, he was a Jew. Stop trying to make things fit your own perceptions for your own enjoyment.
  • I don't suppose it matters, but in that sense does it matter if anyone was a Buddha??
    In a weird way, it doesn't matter if Buddha existed. It's his teachings are more important, no matter where it came from. For Christianity, Jesus' existence is a requirement. Sure his teachings are also profound, but he is also to be worshipped.
  • Jesus was not a Buddhist, he was a Jew. Stop trying to make things fit your own perceptions for your own enjoyment.
    Huh? Who are you talking to?

    Yeesh!
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't suppose it matters, but in that sense does it matter if anyone was a Buddha??
    In a weird way, it doesn't matter if Buddha existed. It's his teachings are more important, no matter where it came from. For Christianity, Jesus' existence is a requirement. Sure his teachings are also profound, but he is also to be worshipped.
    I agree with you on the first part. It doesn't matter if Buddha existed, because the teachings either stand on their own, or not.

    I think I disagree with you on the second part. Jesus' teaching can stand on their own, or not, as well. A non-Christian could choose to believe in some or all of Jesus' teachings, but not believe in the "magic" part.

  • @vinlyn

    Yes. But I just meant that for Christianity to be Christianity and Christians to be Christians, Jesus needs to be believed to have existed and be worshipped.

    Buddhists don't necessarily have to believe that Gautama Buddha existed to be Buddhist.
  • Yes. But I just meant that for Christianity to be Christianity and Christians to be Christians, Jesus needs to be believed to have existed and be worshipped.


    He's correct...without the divinity of christ, christianity as a people are following only teachings as a subsection of judaism. Adopted into Judaism...
  • edited March 2012
    So, is Buddha to Hinduism as Jesus is to Judaism?
  • I don't suppose it matters, but in that sense does it matter if anyone was a Buddha??
    In a weird way, it doesn't matter if Buddha existed. It's his teachings are more important, no matter where it came from. For Christianity, Jesus' existence is a requirement. Sure his teachings are also profound, but he is also to be worshipped.
    I agree with you on the first part. It doesn't matter if Buddha existed, because the teachings either stand on their own, or not.

    I think I disagree with you on the second part. Jesus' teaching can stand on their own, or not, as well. A non-Christian could choose to believe in some or all of Jesus' teachings, but not believe in the "magic" part.

    But they would not be considered the normal type of Christian...they would be aryan christians, muslims, monotheist,humanist, or some sect of Judaism.
  • Jews and Muslims believe him to be a spiritual leader and prophet...I don't know what Hindu s consider the buddha.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2012
    So, is Buddha to Hinduism as Jesus is to Judaism?
    oooh, very sharp observation! You could turn this into an OP!
    Jesus was not a Buddhist, he was a Jew. Stop trying to make things fit your own perceptions for your own enjoyment.
    Ok, I'll bite. Jesus was a Jew ethnically, but it's possible that in terms of spiritual beliefs, his brand of Judaism, which everyone agrees departed radically from the Old Testament beliefs about God and certain social norms, may have incorporated some Buddhism.

  • Sorry about my grammar, I'm actually sick with a cold...to hopped up on drugs
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