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Is eating meat and possibly exploring the cattle business acceptable?
@seeker242 Could you clarify please, whether these sutras are aimed at Bodhisattvas, or monks, or lay people? Would these teachings apply to anyone who takes the Bodhisattva vows? What's the difference between a primary offense and a secondary offense?
The Brahma Net Sutra sets forth the precepts to be observed and abided by the "Bodhisattvas", which is not necessarily just monks but can include laypersons also as well as enlightened beings like Kwan Yin, in Mahayana Buddhism, As far as the monastic rules are concerned, there are 10 major and 48 minor precepts stipulated in this Sutra.
The precepts described in this Sutra, known as the "Precepts of Brahma's Net", are characterized by there being no distinction between the layman and the ordained monks, so the Sutra asserted that all Buddhist practitioners should observe the same rules.
The difference between a primary offense and a secondary offense is an offense against either the 10 major precepts (primary) or the 48 secondary precepts (secondary). These are them: http://www.ymba.org/bns/bnsframe.htm
What do you think about this quote from canon pali? “Monks, one possessed of three qualities is put into Purgatory according to his actions. What three? One is himself a taker of life, encourages another to do the same and approves thereof. Monks, one possessed of three qualities is put into heaven according to his actions. What three? He himself abstains from taking life, encourages another to so abstain, and approves of such abstention.” Anguttara Nikaya 3.16
First, I think everyone who's participated in this thread deserves a compliment for the lack of rancor that often shows up when this topic is discussed.
And that rancor that we have sometimes seen in the past on this topic doesn't quite make sense to me when so many here on this forum keep reminding us all that the Precepts are "only" guidelines.
This is the first time in about 2 years of these threads that someone actually came up with a source in the sutras for the injunction against eating meat. That's a milestone, very informative and constructive.
@snGus, that doesn't answer the question at all. First of all, you declare in your statement, "I truly believe eating meat...." which would imply that while it's your belief, you have no written, documented, reliable, authenticated or authoritative evidence or links to support your belief....
Secondly, "I have asked 3 nutritionists" actually doesn't say a thing.... Did they all say you absolutely should or must include meat in your diet? did they agree that meat is necessary for (y)our health? Was this a unanimous verdict?
...What in fact did these nutritionists actually say to you?
Let me clarify: I miss meat. I enjoyed it a lot, and occasionally get incredible cravings. and if you really WANT to carry on eating meat, then be my guest, I'm happy for your decision.
but what I'm getting at, is this: don't create an illusion for yourself to justify doing something that in point of fact, you do because actually, you just want to. don'r deceive yourself, or lie to yourself. there is absolutely no sound medical scientific reason for why you imperatively need to eat meat. there are many here who have a medical background. there are many here who are vegetarian, and who used to eat meat. there is much scientific and medical evidence to clearly prove that meat is a non-essential part of your diet. and you have been shown several linked teachings, suttas and articles, all pointing out, in an educated and authoritative manner, the why's and wherefore's of not being a meat-eater, or trader in same.
fundamentally, the choice is yours - but don't hide behind beliefs and information that is either flawed or unsubstantiated.
As a famous quotation states; "let your yes be yes, and your no be no." Nothing more is necessary. no excuses, no justifications, no obfuscations. Just the facts, (ma'am), just the facts.....
@snGus, that doesn't answer the question at all. First of all, you declare in your statement, "I truly believe eating meat...." which would imply that while it's your belief, you have no written, documented, reliable, authenticated or authoritative evidence or links to support your belief....
Secondly, "I have asked 3 nutritionists" actually doesn't say a thing.... Did they all say you absolutely should or must include meat in your diet? did they agree that meat is necessary for (y)our health? Was this a unanimous verdict?
...What in fact did these nutritionists actually say to you?
Let me clarify: I miss meat. I enjoyed it a lot, and occasionally get incredible cravings. and if you really WANT to carry on eating meat, then be my guest, I'm happy for your decision.
but what I'm getting at, is this: don't create an illusion for yourself to justify doing something that in point of fact, you do because actually, you just want to. don'r deceive yourself, or lie to yourself. there is absolutely no sound medical scientific reason for why you imperatively need to eat meat. there are many here who have a medical background. there are many here who are vegetarian, and who used to eat meat. there is much scientific and medical evidence to clearly prove that meat is a non-essential part of your diet. and you have been shown several linked teachings, suttas and articles, all pointing out, in an educated and authoritative manner, the why's and wherefore's of not being a meat-eater, or trader in same.
fundamentally, the choice is yours - but don't hide behind beliefs and information that is either flawed or unsubstantiated.
As a famous quotation states; "let your yes be yes, and your no be no." Nothing more is necessary. no excuses, no justifications, no obfuscations. Just the facts, (ma'am), just the facts.....
Maybe youre right. Maybe I eat meat because I like it. But if thats the case then I could simply abstain from it. If I was sure I woul not experience health problems I would do it. I just gotta make sure. Maybe some day I will be ready. Maybe
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Good for you..... now we're getting somewhere. Thank you!
(Please know - I'm not continuing this moot because i simply want to argue. i want to help you really get to the fundamental crux of the matter. and here's why...
If this was just a case of the 'for/against' argument of eating meat, i'd have probably dropped it long ago... enough people have contributed on that count... but I think it's vital to do this, because of your intention to deal with meat and trade in it. And that's an important factor when you consider your commitment to that, vs. your commitment to following a Buddhist calling... So I'm of the opinion that you really need to strip this down - to its bare bones. Now there's an appropriate idiom....)
OK... first question: why are you so certain you would experience health problems by abstaining? again, numerous posters have given you sound facts, and linked references as to why such a 'belief' is flawed... there are vegetarian and vegan athletes - people who depend upon their bodies as the chief primary tool of their profession - and who therefore have to pay particular attention to their diet, the food combinations, the different nutrients, the quantities consumed, in order to keep their systrms at the peak of fitness. They do this with a purely vegetarian diet. so they don't 'believe meat' is essential to their diet. and it would seem they're right.
And you till haven't told us what the 3 nutritionists you consulted, advised....
It's possible that the reason you re so taken with eating meat is that it appeals to your body/blood type, and your desire to eat meat is in fact a craving - an addiction, even. i eat a lot of quorn, especially so called "chicken" pieces, because it's about as close to chunks of chicken breast as you could get. i also eat a lot of braised gluten, which has a very meat-like flavour. tofu - i can't tell you how much of that Ii get through....
you need to pinpoint what it is about meat, precisely, that you can't do without. for example, do you eat offal? I'm talking pork or ox tongue, kidneys, liver, heart, tripe... if those things turn you off, you will have to still deal with those in the meat industry....
3: How do you intend to discover whether meat is vital to your system? you need to be in the right frame of mind. if you go into it, believing your experiment will prove you right - it will. so you have to enter it into a completely free and open frame of mind..... As Henry Ford once said; "Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't - you're right." so in order to establish such a belief accurately, and in such a way as to determine what is going on - I would think you would have to conduct an experiment with the help, support, guidance and supervision of a fully-qualified nutritionist. because they will be able to give you professional, unbiased and impartial feedback.
@Daikini. Sorry but I thought there were Mahayana sutras that recommend not eating meat?
There are. But they really don't recommend not eating it. the basically say "you must not eat it" Of course, not everyone follows that. But this is the reason why the majority of monks in China, Korea and Vietnam are vegetarians.
In the Brahma Net Sutra, the third of the 48 secondary precepts is a prohibition of eating meat. Here the question of karma is not connected to whether the meat was deliberately killed for the eater, but whether the eater is deliberately eating the meat.
3. On Eating Meat A disciple of the Buddha must not deliberately eat meat. He should not eat the flesh of any sentient being. The meat-eater forfeits the seed of Great Compassion, severs the seed of the Buddha Nature, and causes [animals and transcendental] beings to avoid him. Those who do so are guilty of countless offenses. Therefore, Bodhisattvas should not eat the flesh of any sentient beings whatsoever. If instead, he deliberately eats meat, he commits a secondary offense.
Likewise the Lankavatara Sutra presents the question with greater emphasis.
DT Suzuki translation wrote:
The Blessed One said this to him: For innumerable reasons, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva, whose nature is compassion, is not to eat any meat; I will explain them: Mahamati, in this long course of transmigration here, there is not one living being that, having assumed the form of a living being, has not been your mother, or father, or brother, or sister, or son, or daughter, or the one or the other, in various degrees of kinship; and when acquiring another form of life may live as a beast, as a domestic animal, as a bird, or as a womb-born, or as something standing in some relationship to you; [this being so] how can the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva who desires to approach all living beings as if they were himself and to practise the Buddha-truths, eat the flesh of any living being that is of the same nature as himself? Even, Mahamati, the Rakshasa, listening to the Tathagata's discourse on the highest essence of the Dharma, attained the notion of protecting [Buddhism], and, feeling pity, refrains from eating flesh; how much more those who love the Dharma! Thus, Mahamati, wherever there is the evolution of living beings, let people cherish the thought of kinship with them, and, thinking that all beings are [to be loved as if they were] an only child, let them refrain from eating meat. So with Bodhisattvas whose nature is compassion, [the eating of] meat is to be avoided by him. Even in exceptional cases, it is not [compassionate] of a Bodhisattva of good standing to eat meat. The flesh of a dog, an ass, a buffalo, a horse, a bull, or man, or any other [being], Mahamati, that is not generally eaten by people, is sold on the roadside as mutton for the sake of money; and therefore, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva should not eat meat.
For the sake of love of purity, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva should refrain from eating flesh which is born of semen, blood, etc. For fear of causing terror to living beings, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva who is disciplining himself to attain compassion, refrain from eating flesh. To illustrate, Mahamati: When a dog sees, even from a distance, a hunter, a pariah, a fisherman, etc., whose desires are for meat-eating, he is terrified with fear, thinking, "They are death-dealers, they will even kill me." In the same way, Mahamati, even those minute animals that are living in the air, on earth, and in water, seeing meat-eaters at a distance, will perceive in them, by their keen sense of smell, the odour of the Rakshasa and will run away from such people as quickly as possible; for they are to them the threat of death. For this reason, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva, who is disciplining himself, to abide in great compassion, because of its terrifying living beings, refrain from eating meat. Mahamati, meat which is liked by unwise people is full of bad smell and its eating gives one a bad reputation which turns wise people away; let the Bodhisattva refrain from eating meat. The food of the wise, Mahamati, is what is eaten by the Rishis; it does not consist of meat and blood. Therefore, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva refrain from eating meat.
In order to guard the minds of all people, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva whose nature is holy and who is desirous of avoiding censure on the teaching of the Buddha, refrain from eating meat. For instance, Mahamati, there are some in the world who speak ill of the teaching of the Buddha; [they would say,] "Why are those who are living the life of a Sramana or a Brahmin reject such food as was enjoyed by the ancient Rishis, and like the carnivorous animals, living in the air, on earth, or in the water? Why do they go wandering about in the world thoroughly terrifying living beings, disregarding the life of a Sramana and destroying the vow of a Brahmin? There is no Dharma, no discipline in them." There are many such adverse-minded people who thus speak ill of the teaching of the Buddha. For this reason, Mahamati, in order to guard the minds of all people, let the Bodhisattva whose nature is full of pity and who is desirous of avoiding censure on the teaching of the Buddha, refrain from eating meat.
i really enjoy them and find them very appropriate!
actually, i was going to send you a pm yesterday but i guess i can shower you with love here and embarrass you publicly!!
I really feel that reading the sutra you posted in the "rightful shame" thread, really helped me realize something very important, a whole new branch of my morality understanding have started to sprout. I think it change and will change my life in a significant way!
Every body is different. Some people do need a meat diet. It could be for any number of reasons. The human organism is complex and full of individual variation.
Soy interferes with thyroid function. And some people have an allergy or food sensitivity to soy. That eliminates a major source of veggie protein.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
i am completely aware of this. However, i don't think that the OP has actually undergone any kind of nutritional evaluation....
His assertion is that he believes he needs meat as part of his diet for his health.
I personally believe that as part of his research into his diet, affiliated with his following a Buddhist path, and considering his possible plan to become a trader in meat, it's something he should seriously look in to....
I wonder what his motives are for going into the meat business. Maybe it's not out of his own need for meat. Maybe he's going into it to revolutionize the way cattle and other animals are slaughtered, bringing a cruelty-free method to mainstream business. Maybe he's a man on a mission to end suffering for animals at the slaughterhouse.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
the only way i can see of ending suffering at the slaughterhouse - is to not slaughter animals at all. there is a serious attempt to produce meat in vitro... and it appears to have succeeded -
with any luck, it will eventually become a cheaper way of producing meat than the current methods which are costly, time consuming and far from ideal in most cases.
I can't/won't address the eating part, as I'm not a nutritionist. Followers of Buddhism must make that decision personally.
I'll simply add this from one of my old Theravada texts regarding the "right livelihood" aspect, as Theravadans follow the Pali Canon fairly strictly.
"Purifying thoughts, words and deeds at the outset, the spiritual pilgram tries to purify his livelihood by refraining from the five kinds of trade which are forbidden to a lay-deciple. They are trading in arms (satthavanijja), human beings (sattavanijja), flesh (mamsavanijja), i.e. breeding animals for slaughter, intoxicating drinks (majjavanijja), and poison (visavanijja)."
"Buddha Dhamma; The Teaching of the Buddha" - The Ven. Narada Maha Thera
i really enjoy them and find them very appropriate!
actually, i was going to send you a pm yesterday but i guess i can shower you with love here and embarrass you publicly!!
I really feel that reading the sutra you posted in the "rightful shame" thread, really helped me realize something very important, a whole new branch of my morality understanding have started to sprout. I think it change and will change my life in a significant way!
so thank you!
That's great to hear and nice of you to say that! Thanks for saying thanks! :bowdown:
Good for you..... now we're getting somewhere. Thank you!
(Please know - I'm not continuing this moot because i simply want to argue. i want to help you really get to the fundamental crux of the matter. and here's why...
If this was just a case of the 'for/against' argument of eating meat, i'd have probably dropped it long ago... enough people have contributed on that count... but I think it's vital to do this, because of your intention to deal with meat and trade in it. And that's an important factor when you consider your commitment to that, vs. your commitment to following a Buddhist calling... So I'm of the opinion that you really need to strip this down - to its bare bones. Now there's an appropriate idiom....)
OK... first question: why are you so certain you would experience health problems by abstaining? again, numerous posters have given you sound facts, and linked references as to why such a 'belief' is flawed... there are vegetarian and vegan athletes - people who depend upon their bodies as the chief primary tool of their profession - and who therefore have to pay particular attention to their diet, the food combinations, the different nutrients, the quantities consumed, in order to keep their systrms at the peak of fitness. They do this with a purely vegetarian diet. so they don't 'believe meat' is essential to their diet. and it would seem they're right.
And you till haven't told us what the 3 nutritionists you consulted, advised....
It's possible that the reason you re so taken with eating meat is that it appeals to your body/blood type, and your desire to eat meat is in fact a craving - an addiction, even. i eat a lot of quorn, especially so called "chicken" pieces, because it's about as close to chunks of chicken breast as you could get. i also eat a lot of braised gluten, which has a very meat-like flavour. tofu - i can't tell you how much of that Ii get through....
you need to pinpoint what it is about meat, precisely, that you can't do without. for example, do you eat offal? I'm talking pork or ox tongue, kidneys, liver, heart, tripe... if those things turn you off, you will have to still deal with those in the meat industry....
3: How do you intend to discover whether meat is vital to your system? you need to be in the right frame of mind. if you go into it, believing your experiment will prove you right - it will. so you have to enter it into a completely free and open frame of mind..... As Henry Ford once said; "Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't - you're right." so in order to establish such a belief accurately, and in such a way as to determine what is going on - I would think you would have to conduct an experiment with the help, support, guidance and supervision of a fully-qualified nutritionist. because they will be able to give you professional, unbiased and impartial feedback.
and that's really what you definitively need.
First of all I'd like to make it clear that there is no problem at at in continuing this "moot". Your opinion differs from mine but I started this thread exactly because I wanted to share different opinions. And that's because as you all might have noticed I am not ok with the fact that I eat meat, although I keep eating it. It's like I'm trapped in the need of eating meat because I'm afraid of having healthy issues if I abstain from it.
I am not here to make excuses to justify my diet. I am joining this forums as an anonymous guy (just like most of people here and on the internet) and there would be no need to give excuses in this circumstances.
I came here because Buddhism is a tricky philosophy if you want to follow it as a lay person.
Especially if you live in a society where everyone eats meet, in every social event that has food.
I never knew someone who was a vegetarian. But I've heard of vegetarian people who suffered of anemia and other disorders and had to go back eating meat.
As you said, there are athletes who have a vegetarian diet and who are successful on it.
But having such a diet requires the supervision of a qualified nutritionist, as you said. And it also requires the consumption of special rations or products to provide my body with all the nutrients it needs. So it is a lot more complicated and also expensive than simply maintaining an ordinary meat based diet.
I wouldn't starve if I was to hire a nutritionist and I would not bankrupt if I purchased these products, but still it would mean a great expense for someone who has graduated from law school less than an year ago and is struggling to build up a career.
Also, going regularly to see a doctor or a nutritionist would be a problem since I have so few time for this. I have few time for everything. I'm typing it as I'm in a room waiting for a post graduation class start and I've been working all the long.
So changing my diet to a successful vegetarian diet would imply great changes in all facets of my life and it would be very difficult to handle all this right now. It may seem as trivial things but believe me it would not be simple. The obstacles I pointed above are real and relevant.
Still as I said I'm not ok with meat eating. And I might be able to solve this issue some day. But if I devote time and effort on this right now I may suffer other consequences besides health issues as I try to optimize a vegetarian diet.
What I said is not for giving people excuses neither giving myself excuses.
Anyway, this thread is very productive because we are sharing different views and discussing a central point of Buddhism philosophy in a modern life context.
I wonder what his motives are for going into the meat business. Maybe it's not out of his own need for meat. Maybe he's going into it to revolutionize the way cattle and other animals are slaughtered, bringing a cruelty-free method to mainstream business. Maybe he's a man on a mission to end suffering for animals at the slaughterhouse.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but just as I am not to give excuses here regarding why I eat meat, I am not gonna say I have an infallible plan to change the cattle industry.
If I join this business -- and I can't be sure if I will, that would be not before in 2 years or so -- I would be doing this for money, because my gf wants to have children and her family demands me to be very successful.
But since I love animals I would off course try to apply technologies to avoid animal cruelty or suffering. But since I don't understand anything about this business I can't predict if that would be possible. All I know is that there is a way of painless killing cattle by passing an electrical current on its brain.
@snGus, before I went vegetarian, I researched vegetarianism and nutrition to death. So I knew what I was going into. It can be a bit challenging for women, who have a higher need for iron. There are plant sources for iron, but it's not enough, often. So you take an iron supplement. No big deal. The only other essential nutrient you can't get from a veggie diet, is B-12, I think. I'm not sure, it's been so long since I was veggie, but again, not a big deal.
You won't get anemic or sick if you take the plunge. But you do need to do your homework. A veggie diet doesn't mean eating vegetables. This is a common misperception. A veggie diet means eating (aside from veggies) nuts, legumes, grains. Sufficient protein will become your quest, if you want to go veggie. The best grain is Quinoa, because it's a complete protein. Otherwise you mix different protein sources. Read up--the research is fun and interesting. As you go along, learning more as you go, your brain will quietly be psyching itself for the new adventure.
And nobody's holding a gun to your head; you can still have meat products occasionally, if you want, or fish (much healthier for you).
Whatever you choose to do, good luck, and keep us informed.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@snGus, I've suddenly realised what an agony this is for you - and that in a way you're beating yourself up about this, no end... you need to relax. if you want to eat meat - then do so. when it will be time for you to stop - you'll stop. until then, that's fine, go easy on yourself. nobody here has insulted you, condemned you criticised you or held you up to ridicule. (They'd have to get past me, anyway, and i don't hold with such behaviour... but i digress.....) therefore, there's no need for you to come down hard on you, either.
I would say that top vegetarian athletes would have done a lot of research to begin with, and probably have a nutritionist on had for advice - but once you learn what your body needs, and you learn about the different nutrients available to you - then generally, you can swing it on your own.... you're not going to need an nutritional advisor in your kitchen cupboard 'from now on and always'...Once you know a bit more about food, you can do it yourself....Why not start by maybe having two vegetarian days a week.... and go like that for a few months, then swap - and have just two meat days a week... gradually, that is.....
I would be doing this for money, because my gf wants to have children and her family demands me to be very successful.
Ah, yes, the success trap. Interesting that her parents are telling you what to do. But that's a subject for another thread. or...not.
I guess making a living electrically frying cows' brains is better than selling trashy investments or running an investment ponzi scheme, and watching people become homeless.
I think there's ranchland you can use for virtually free, if it's on public lands, federal land of any kind. And if you can make it work, there's often more money to be had in private business than in law, medicine or similar professions.
Drop us a card from time to time, let us know how everything works out.
I would be doing this for money, because my gf wants to have children and her family demands me to be very successful.
Ah, yes, the success trap. Interesting that her parents are telling you what to do. But that's a subject for another thread. or...not.
I guess making a living electrically frying cows' brains is better than selling trashy investments or running an investment ponzi scheme, and watching people become homeless.
I think there's ranchland you can use for virtually free, if it's on public lands, federal land of any kind. And if you can make it work, there's often more money to be had in private business than in law, medicine or similar professions.
Drop us a card from time to time, let us know how everything works out.
Comments
The precepts described in this Sutra, known as the "Precepts of Brahma's Net", are characterized by there being no distinction between the layman and the ordained monks, so the Sutra asserted that all Buddhist practitioners should observe the same rules.
The difference between a primary offense and a secondary offense is an offense against either the 10 major precepts (primary) or the 48 secondary precepts (secondary). These are them: http://www.ymba.org/bns/bnsframe.htm
“Monks, one possessed of three qualities is put into Purgatory according to his actions. What three? One is himself a taker of life, encourages another to do the same and approves thereof. Monks, one possessed of three qualities is put into heaven according to his actions. What three? He himself abstains from taking life, encourages another to so abstain, and approves of such abstention.” Anguttara Nikaya 3.16
And that rancor that we have sometimes seen in the past on this topic doesn't quite make sense to me when so many here on this forum keep reminding us all that the Precepts are "only" guidelines.
First of all, you declare in your statement, "I truly believe eating meat...." which would imply that while it's your belief, you have no written, documented, reliable, authenticated or authoritative evidence or links to support your belief....
Secondly, "I have asked 3 nutritionists" actually doesn't say a thing....
Did they all say you absolutely should or must include meat in your diet?
did they agree that meat is necessary for (y)our health?
Was this a unanimous verdict?
...What in fact did these nutritionists actually say to you?
Let me clarify:
I miss meat.
I enjoyed it a lot, and occasionally get incredible cravings.
and if you really WANT to carry on eating meat, then be my guest, I'm happy for your decision.
but what I'm getting at, is this:
don't create an illusion for yourself to justify doing something that in point of fact, you do because actually, you just want to.
don'r deceive yourself, or lie to yourself.
there is absolutely no sound medical scientific reason for why you imperatively need to eat meat.
there are many here who have a medical background.
there are many here who are vegetarian, and who used to eat meat.
there is much scientific and medical evidence to clearly prove that meat is a non-essential part of your diet.
and you have been shown several linked teachings, suttas and articles, all pointing out, in an educated and authoritative manner, the why's and wherefore's of not being a meat-eater, or trader in same.
fundamentally, the choice is yours - but don't hide behind beliefs and information that is either flawed or unsubstantiated.
As a famous quotation states;
"let your yes be yes, and your no be no."
Nothing more is necessary.
no excuses, no justifications, no obfuscations.
Just the facts, (ma'am), just the facts.....
(Please know - I'm not continuing this moot because i simply want to argue. i want to help you really get to the fundamental crux of the matter. and here's why...
If this was just a case of the 'for/against' argument of eating meat, i'd have probably dropped it long ago... enough people have contributed on that count...
but I think it's vital to do this, because of your intention to deal with meat and trade in it.
And that's an important factor when you consider your commitment to that, vs. your commitment to following a Buddhist calling...
So I'm of the opinion that you really need to strip this down - to its bare bones.
Now there's an appropriate idiom....)
OK... first question:
why are you so certain you would experience health problems by abstaining?
again, numerous posters have given you sound facts, and linked references as to why such a 'belief' is flawed...
there are vegetarian and vegan athletes - people who depend upon their bodies as the chief primary tool of their profession - and who therefore have to pay particular attention to their diet, the food combinations, the different nutrients, the quantities consumed, in order to keep their systrms at the peak of fitness.
They do this with a purely vegetarian diet.
so they don't 'believe meat' is essential to their diet. and it would seem they're right.
And you till haven't told us what the 3 nutritionists you consulted, advised....
It's possible that the reason you re so taken with eating meat is that it appeals to your body/blood type, and your desire to eat meat is in fact a craving - an addiction, even.
i eat a lot of quorn, especially so called "chicken" pieces, because it's about as close to chunks of chicken breast as you could get.
i also eat a lot of braised gluten, which has a very meat-like flavour.
tofu - i can't tell you how much of that Ii get through....
you need to pinpoint what it is about meat, precisely, that you can't do without.
for example, do you eat offal?
I'm talking pork or ox tongue, kidneys, liver, heart, tripe...
if those things turn you off, you will have to still deal with those in the meat industry....
3: How do you intend to discover whether meat is vital to your system?
you need to be in the right frame of mind.
if you go into it, believing your experiment will prove you right - it will.
so you have to enter it into a completely free and open frame of mind.....
As Henry Ford once said;
"Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't - you're right."
so in order to establish such a belief accurately, and in such a way as to determine what is going on - I would think you would have to conduct an experiment with the help, support, guidance and supervision of a fully-qualified nutritionist.
because they will be able to give you professional, unbiased and impartial feedback.
and that's really what you definitively need.
i really enjoy them and find them very appropriate!
actually, i was going to send you a pm yesterday but i guess i can shower you with love here and embarrass you publicly!!
I really feel that reading the sutra you posted in the "rightful shame" thread, really helped me realize something very important, a whole new branch of my morality understanding have started to sprout. I think it change and will change my life in a significant way!
so thank you!
Soy interferes with thyroid function. And some people have an allergy or food sensitivity to soy. That eliminates a major source of veggie protein.
However, i don't think that the OP has actually undergone any kind of nutritional evaluation....
His assertion is that he believes he needs meat as part of his diet for his health.
I personally believe that as part of his research into his diet, affiliated with his following a Buddhist path, and considering his possible plan to become a trader in meat, it's something he should seriously look in to....
there is a serious attempt to produce meat in vitro... and it appears to have succeeded -
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/02/meat-grown-in-lab-may-yield-first-test-tube-burger-by-fall/1#.T2jLdMUaODk
with any luck, it will eventually become a cheaper way of producing meat than the current methods which are costly, time consuming and far from ideal in most cases.
I'll simply add this from one of my old Theravada texts regarding the "right livelihood" aspect, as Theravadans follow the Pali Canon fairly strictly.
"Purifying thoughts, words and deeds at the outset, the spiritual pilgram tries to purify his livelihood by refraining from the five kinds of trade which are forbidden to a lay-deciple. They are trading in arms (satthavanijja), human beings (sattavanijja), flesh (mamsavanijja), i.e. breeding animals for slaughter, intoxicating drinks (majjavanijja), and poison (visavanijja)."
"Buddha Dhamma; The Teaching of the Buddha"
- The Ven. Narada Maha Thera
I am not here to make excuses to justify my diet. I am joining this forums as an anonymous guy (just like most of people here and on the internet) and there would be no need to give excuses in this circumstances.
I came here because Buddhism is a tricky philosophy if you want to follow it as a lay person.
Especially if you live in a society where everyone eats meet, in every social event that has food.
I never knew someone who was a vegetarian. But I've heard of vegetarian people who suffered of anemia and other disorders and had to go back eating meat.
As you said, there are athletes who have a vegetarian diet and who are successful on it.
But having such a diet requires the supervision of a qualified nutritionist, as you said. And it also requires the consumption of special rations or products to provide my body with all the nutrients it needs. So it is a lot more complicated and also expensive than simply maintaining an ordinary meat based diet.
I wouldn't starve if I was to hire a nutritionist and I would not bankrupt if I purchased these products, but still it would mean a great expense for someone who has graduated from law school less than an year ago and is struggling to build up a career.
Also, going regularly to see a doctor or a nutritionist would be a problem since I have so few time for this. I have few time for everything. I'm typing it as I'm in a room waiting for a post graduation class start and I've been working all the long.
So changing my diet to a successful vegetarian diet would imply great changes in all facets of my life and it would be very difficult to handle all this right now. It may seem as trivial things but believe me it would not be simple. The obstacles I pointed above are real and relevant.
Still as I said I'm not ok with meat eating. And I might be able to solve this issue some day. But if I devote time and effort on this right now I may suffer other consequences besides health issues as I try to optimize a vegetarian diet.
What I said is not for giving people excuses neither giving myself excuses.
Anyway, this thread is very productive because we are sharing different views and discussing a central point of Buddhism philosophy in a modern life context.
If I join this business -- and I can't be sure if I will, that would be not before in 2 years or so -- I would be doing this for money, because my gf wants to have children and her family demands me to be very successful.
But since I love animals I would off course try to apply technologies to avoid animal cruelty or suffering. But since I don't understand anything about this business I can't predict if that would be possible. All I know is that there is a way of painless killing cattle by passing an electrical current on its brain.
You won't get anemic or sick if you take the plunge. But you do need to do your homework. A veggie diet doesn't mean eating vegetables. This is a common misperception. A veggie diet means eating (aside from veggies) nuts, legumes, grains. Sufficient protein will become your quest, if you want to go veggie. The best grain is Quinoa, because it's a complete protein. Otherwise you mix different protein sources. Read up--the research is fun and interesting. As you go along, learning more as you go, your brain will quietly be psyching itself for the new adventure.
And nobody's holding a gun to your head; you can still have meat products occasionally, if you want, or fish (much healthier for you).
Whatever you choose to do, good luck, and keep us informed.
you need to relax.
if you want to eat meat - then do so.
when it will be time for you to stop - you'll stop.
until then, that's fine, go easy on yourself.
nobody here has insulted you, condemned you criticised you or held you up to ridicule. (They'd have to get past me, anyway, and i don't hold with such behaviour... but i digress.....)
therefore, there's no need for you to come down hard on you, either.
I would say that top vegetarian athletes would have done a lot of research to begin with, and probably have a nutritionist on had for advice - but once you learn what your body needs, and you learn about the different nutrients available to you - then generally, you can swing it on your own.... you're not going to need an nutritional advisor in your kitchen cupboard 'from now on and always'...Once you know a bit more about food, you can do it yourself....Why not start by maybe having two vegetarian days a week.... and go like that for a few months, then swap - and have just two meat days a week... gradually, that is.....
but you do what you feel is right.....
I guess making a living electrically frying cows' brains is better than selling trashy investments or running an investment ponzi scheme, and watching people become homeless.
I think there's ranchland you can use for virtually free, if it's on public lands, federal land of any kind. And if you can make it work, there's often more money to be had in private business than in law, medicine or similar professions.
Drop us a card from time to time, let us know how everything works out.