Is eating meat and possibly exploring the cattle business acceptable?

snGus

I grew up in a culture that appreciates meat and I simply can't abstain of consuming meat.

But it has been a while since I started to read and learn about the Buddha's teachings and I agree with most of it.

But one of the points I don't agree is the vegetarian diet. I understand it is necessary to avoid harming living beings, which is pretty understandable.

But I firmly believe that consuming meat as food is necessary for a healthy development. Also every doctor I talked about it (3 to be more precise) recommended me not to change my diet and keep consuming meat.

Buddha himself said we should not accept his teachings blindly.

So I want to know if there are other Buddhist who eat meat and what do they think about it.

See it's not a matter of eating only because I like it. It's about eating because it's necessary in my point of view. And also because the consumption of meat played a great role in the biological evolutionary development of humankind itself.

I think that it's impossible to live in this Reign (Earth) without harming other beings due to the natural biological relation of feeding chain that we are inserted. The best we can do is to work in ways of minimizing suffering. But in what comes to consuming meat I can't simply abstain from it. Also because I plan to have children next year and I would not risk my children health since the doctors say meat and its derivatives are necessary for a healthy development.

And also I may be joining the cattle business in the future because I might have the opportunity and also because it would be necessary for providing a better life for me and my upcoming family.

The guy who might be my partner in this business said that nowadays it's economically possibly to sacrifice the cattle for food in a non cruel way by applying an electric current trough its brain. The animal dies in less than one second and unable to feel any pain or realize what's happening.

I don't know the details but there might be some explanation why the cattle industry is still regarded as one of the most cruel business. I am not stupid to think every farm uses non cruel methods. But I'm also very interested in finding out less cruel alternatives.

Dakini

We had a very long-running thread about this, exactly. Well, except for the cattle business part. Can anyone find that thread?

Cattle business: Buddhists are supposed to practice "right livelihood", which means a livelihood that doesn't require them to traffic in sentient beings or to kill them. Even if it's a "non-cruel way", it's still a career based on the taking of life.

Personally, I eat meat. Lots of Buddhists eat meat. So we are enabling the cattle business. It's your call. A friend of my parents was a rancher, but with weather patterns becoming so unpredictable, and becoming warmer and drier in parts of the country, he had to get out of the business. One especially dry year caused most of his herds to die. It broke his heart.

snGus

We had a very long-running thread about this, exactly. Well, except for the cattle business part. Can anyone find that thread?

Cattle business: Buddhists are supposed to practice "right livelihood", which means a livelihood that doesn't require them to traffic in sentient beings or to kill them. Even if it's a "non-cruel way", it's still a career based on the taking of life.

Personally, I eat meat. Lots of Buddhists eat meat. So we are enabling the cattle business. It's your call. A friend of my parents was a rancher, but with weather patterns becoming so unpredictable, and becoming warmer and drier in parts of the country, he had to get out of the business. One especially dry year caused most of his herds to die. It broke his heart.

Right. You eat meat yourself and you are a Buddhist, if I'm not mistaken. Do you consider eating meat wrong? Or do you think it's necessary?

Dakini

Here's one thread on the topic, but not the one I was looking for:
http://www.newbuddhist.com/discussion/13310/vegetarianism

No, I don't consider it wrong, but I respect those who do, I understand the argument. I need to eat meat for health reasons. I was vegetarian for 15 years, then I had to switch to meat. For some people, it's necessary, for others, not. Everyone should do what is best for them.

Sabre

The Buddha did not say not to eat meat. He and his monks did not to eat meat if it was especially killed for them, so the supporters were not turned to killing. But otherwise, they also ate meat from time to time and in some traditions the monks also still eat meat / fish. So, eating meat is not against the Buddha's teachings.

If it is needed for health is debatable. If you eat milk/cheese etc, you may not need any at all. However 1 thing is for sure: The amounts most people eat is not healthy. You need very little meat in a diet. Certainly not daily and in the amounts that are usual in society.

Personally I eat meat very rarely, but still do sometimes. However it is your own personal choice on what you decide to eat.

The same goes for your job. You have to decide. Just be honest to yourself about your motives and you'll find out if you think it is ok or not.

federica

But I firmly believe that consuming meat as food is necessary for a healthy development.

incorrect.

Also every doctor I talked about it (3 to be more precise) recommended me not to change my diet and keep consuming meat.

if they are meat-eaters, then of course they would say that.
you need to speak to an impartial nutritionist. And not necessarily a vegetarian one....
An ordinary doctor GP wouldn't have more accurate information to hand...

Buddha himself said we should not accept his teachings blindly.

no he didn't.

So I want to know if there are other Buddhist who eat meat and what do they think about it.

LOADS of us eat meat.
Loads of us don't.

See it's not a matter of eating only because I like it. It's about eating because it's necessary in my point of view. And also because the consumption of meat played a great role in the biological evolutionary development of humankind itself.

Man is an omnivore, true.
Man needs meat in his diet.
not true.

I think that it's impossible to live in this Reign (Earth) without harming other beings due to the natural biological relation of feeding chain that we are inserted.
(. . .)
I don't know the details but there might be some explanation why the cattle industry is still regarded as one of the most cruel business. I am not stupid to think every farm uses non cruel methods. But I'm also very interested in finding out less cruel alternatives.

this is all mere personal justification.
And that's ok, if that's how you want to do it.
there is absolutely no biological nutritional essential reason to eat meat.
but if it's what you decide to do so, then just admit it's because you like it, and have done with it.
the 'Great Buddhist Vegetarian Debate' has been going on for as long as i can remember, and then some.
the bottom line is - it's up to you.

Dakini

http://www.newbuddhist.com/discussion/8986/eating-of-meat-where-is-the-line-drawn

Still not the thread I'm looking for.

federica

Well, i did point out in my post that the discussion is timeless... virtually....

how many more are you going to dig up, do you think, before you hit the jackpot....?
I'd quit at 150 if i were you......;)

snGus

I truly believe eating meat is necessary for our health and this is the reason I won't abstain from it.

And I agree this is a endless discussion since both arguments are acceptable.

So the only conclusion we can get from this really that it's up to me.

person

For monastics the rule is to not eat meat that was intentionally killed for you.

In Tibet it isn't possible to grow crops sufficiently to feed people so eating meat was essential. Tibetan Buddhists are starting to adopt more vegetarian ways but they still loves them some meat.

In right livelihood there are 5 professions which are not to be undertaken.

The five types of businesses that should not be undertaken:
1.Business in weapons: trading in all kinds of weapons and instruments for killing.
2.Business in human beings: slave trading, prostitution, or the buying and selling of children or adults.
3.Business in meat: "meat" refers to the bodies of beings after they are killed. This includes breeding animals for slaughter.
4.Business in intoxicants: manufacturing or selling intoxicating drinks or addictive drugs.
5.Business in poison: producing or trading in any kind of toxic product designed to kill.

person

As to the health thing. There are lots of healthy vegetarians and vegans so it obviously can be done.

federica

@snGus

So the only conclusion we can get from this really that it's up to me.

bingo.

i would add, i was firmly of the same belief as you.
in fact, because of a blood condition i have, i was advised by a nutritionist to eat meat for the specific protein compound it provides.
Then, i had a serious accident which left my left leg about 20% useless.

And i began getting cramp attacks like you wouldn't believe... I mean, crippling, agonising, debilitating attacks that would last for at least 3 - 5 hours a night....
I would weep with agony and frustration at my distorted leg, and every time it looked like clearing up, i would go back to bed - only to have the same spasm return within the minute... and I'd have to get out of bed again, and hobble around on this bent leg, until it would straighten out on its own....eventually, sheer exhaustion would knock me out.....

then, i quit meat last year, for Lent.

(Lent-?! that's a Christian thing... isn't it?
Yeah, i know... i used to be catholic.... don't worry, i just did it for my own satisfaction....)

and to my astonishment - my cramp attacks cleared up.
completely.
no more pain.
no more sleepless nights.
no more hobbling around, in excruciating agony, helpless, for hours on end.
I spoke to my nutritionist.
she advised me what type of diet to follow to replace the meat protein, and I take folic acid every day now, to help the condition.
so no.
Meat is absolutely, definitely not essential to personal health.
And millions of vegetarians will attest to that fact.
so you are entirely wrong on that, but if that's what you want to continue believing, that's up to you.
I wish you well.

Meat or no meat.

IronRabbit

Right, wrong - who knows? We do know Siddartha Gautama ate meat.

For a practical, humane and enlightening approach to the cattle industry look up Temple Grandin - an amazing woman - weird but amazing....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

Arthurbodhi

In the canon pali only tell 35 times what The Buddha eat and only 1 of them he is consuming meat and was for not offend the giver. This was 90% vegetarian.

http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Diet_of_Buddha
also
http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Vegetarian


@Ironrabbit the quote is wrong, it have to say "My food shits in ours food", you can live healthy only with meat.

person

There's shit in most meat too.

Daozen

I truly believe eating meat is necessary for our health and this is the reason I won't abstain from it.

Why? Are you a nutritionist? Have you asked a nutritionist?

Look deeper, and you may be surprised what you learn. For starters:

Eating red meat will kill you

seeker242

The cattle business, regardless if it's factory farm or a sweet family farm, is considered wrong livelihood by a layperson.

"My food shits on your food". Yes, that is the problem. That is the reason why the whole river is polluted with shit and E. coli and all the fish are dying because of it!

vinlyn

In the canon pali only tell 35 times what The Buddha eat and only 1 of them he is consuming meat and was for not offend the giver. This was 90% vegetarian.

Arthurbodi, this response is more a general response, not a response directly to your post, so please don't take offense.

I think each Buddhist has to make up his own mind about the eating meat issue. And one of the few things that really grates on me about this forum is the debate which flares every few months about the meat-eating issue. I doubt there have a significant number of changing minds on the issue. It's just argue, argue, argue. People repeatedly take offense, no matter what side of the issue they're on. It's pointless.

I'm a meat eater. I have my reasons for believing it's okay. And, due to some digestive medical issues I've had for almost 50 years, I can't digest about half the veggies and fruits out there.

But having lived in Thailand, watched monks eat on many occasions, taken them food myself on quite a few occasions with Thai Buddhist friends, I have come to conclusion that if meat eating were a serious offense, then they wouldn't eat meat.

Now again, Arthurbodi, this is not directed at you, and whatever viewpoint you have, I respect your choice. But if eating meat were wrong from the Theravada point of view, the Supreme Sangha in Thailand could simply publicly state that is so, and the people would stop giving meat to monks, particularly when meat is far more expensive to give to the monks than veggies and fruits that are cheap and more easily available. If the Supreme Sangha simply made that announcement, no one would be offended. They would probably be happy to be able to give cheaper food to the monks.

So for me personally, until I see that happen, I'm not going to let the issue bother me.

I accept that other people have a totally different point of view.

Jason

Meat consumption is a personal choice. The Buddha himself rejected Devadatta's demand to institute vegetarianism as a requirement for the Sangha, allowing the consumption of meat as long as it's pure in three ways:

'Jivaka, those who say "Animals are slaughtered on purpose for the recluse Gotama, and the recluse Gotama knowingly eats the meat killed on purpose for him" do not say according to what I have declared, and they falsely accuse me. Jivaka, I have declared that one should not make use of meat if it is seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. I allow the monks meat that is quite pure in three respects: if it is not seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk.'

So one doesn't have to be a vegetarian in order to be a Buddhist, in my opinion, and I do eat meat on occasion. That said, vegetarianism is certainly a more compassionate option that's in line with the Buddha's teachings on ahimsa or harmlessness. (You can find more of my thoughts about it here and here, if you're interested.)

As for joining the cattle business, that's also a personal choice, and there's no sort of Buddhist excommunication for being a part of the meat industry. However, it's definitely considered wrong livelihood from the Buddhist point of view, and is something that's strongly discouraged because it causes harm and suffering to other living creatures:

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."

Essentially, the Buddha does present some clear guidelines when it comes to the eating of meat and making one's livelihood in the meat business (i.e., it's better not to); but it's ultimately up to the individual to decide what's right for them and how far they're willing to commit themselves to the noble eightfold path.

Those are some of my thoughts about it anyway.

vinlyn

Meat consumption is a personal choice. The Buddha himself rejected Devadatta's demand to institute vegetarianism as a requirement for the Sangha, allowing the consumption of meat as long as it's pure in three ways:

'Jivaka, those who say "Animals are slaughtered on purpose for the recluse Gotama, and the recluse Gotama knowingly eats the meat killed on purpose for him" do not say according to what I have declared, and they falsely accuse me. Jivaka, I have declared that one should not make use of meat if it is seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. I allow the monks meat that is quite pure in three respects: if it is not seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk.'

So one doesn't have to be a vegetarian in order to be a Buddhist, in my opinion, and I do eat meat on occasion. That said, vegetarianism is certainly a more compassionate option that's in line with the Buddha's teachings on ahimsa or harmlessness. (You can find more of my thoughts about it here and here, if you're interested.)

As for joining the cattle business, that's also a personal choice, and there's no sort of Buddhist excommunication for being a part of the meat industry. However, it's definitely considered wrong livelihood from the Buddhist point of view, and is something that's strongly discouraged because it causes harm and suffering to other living creatures:

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."

Essentially, the Buddha does present some clear guidelines when it comes to the eating of meat and making one's livelihood in the meat business (i.e., it's better not to); but it's ultimately up to the individual to decide what's right for them and how far they're willing to commit themselves to the noble eightfold path.

Those are some of my thoughts about it anyway.

I think you've stated this very objectively. Thank you.

jll

Eating meat is permitted in buddhism.
killing animal is not.
well, you shd seriously consider other careers.
what do you think is the consequence of causing suffering to animals?
buddha said to avoid work that cause suffering to animals.
99% of people are not willing to kill animals for meat.
why do you think that is?

I grew up in a culture that appreciates meat and I simply can't abstain of consuming meat.

But it has been a while since I started to read and learn about the Buddha's teachings and I agree with most of it.

But one of the points I don't agree is the vegetarian diet. I understand it is necessary to avoid harming living beings, which is pretty understandable.

But I firmly believe that consuming meat as food is necessary for a healthy development. Also every doctor I talked about it (3 to be more precise) recommended me not to change my diet and keep consuming meat.

Buddha himself said we should not accept his teachings blindly.

So I want to know if there are other Buddhist who eat meat and what do they think about it.

See it's not a matter of eating only because I like it. It's about eating because it's necessary in my point of view. And also because the consumption of meat played a great role in the biological evolutionary development of humankind itself.

I think that it's impossible to live in this Reign (Earth) without harming other beings due to the natural biological relation of feeding chain that we are inserted. The best we can do is to work in ways of minimizing suffering. But in what comes to consuming meat I can't simply abstain from it. Also because I plan to have children next year and I would not risk my children health since the doctors say meat and its derivatives are necessary for a healthy development.

And also I may be joining the cattle business in the future because I might have the opportunity and also because it would be necessary for providing a better life for me and my upcoming family.

The guy who might be my partner in this business said that nowadays it's economically possibly to sacrifice the cattle for food in a non cruel way by applying an electric current trough its brain. The animal dies in less than one second and unable to feel any pain or realize what's happening.

I don't know the details but there might be some explanation why the cattle industry is still regarded as one of the most cruel business. I am not stupid to think every farm uses non cruel methods. But I'm also very interested in finding out less cruel alternatives.

Lady_Alison

I'm only adding this to compare but Muslims can eat meat so long as they are killed humanly and all parts are used as to not go to waste...except the blood, which must be drained out.

Just my two cents

robot

I'm only adding this to compare but Muslims can eat meat so long as they are killed humanly and all parts are used as to not go to waste...except the blood, which must be drained out.

Just my two cents

Which makes more sense than only eating meat if it was not killed for you. Knowing that your meat was killed humanely on your behalf seems more compassionate than eating meat bought casually in the market while disregarding the source.

Arthurbodhi

In the canon pali only tell 35 times what The Buddha eat and only 1 of them he is consuming meat and was for not offend the giver. This was 90% vegetarian.

Arthurbodi, this response is more a general response, not a response directly to your post, so please don't take offense.

I think each Buddhist has to make up his own mind about the eating meat issue. And one of the few things that really grates on me about this forum is the debate which flares every few months about the meat-eating issue. I doubt there have a significant number of changing minds on the issue. It's just argue, argue, argue. People repeatedly take offense, no matter what side of the issue they're on. It's pointless.

I'm a meat eater. I have my reasons for believing it's okay. And, due to some digestive medical issues I've had for almost 50 years, I can't digest about half the veggies and fruits out there.

But having lived in Thailand, watched monks eat on many occasions, taken them food myself on quite a few occasions with Thai Buddhist friends, I have come to conclusion that if meat eating were a serious offense, then they wouldn't eat meat.

Now again, Arthurbodi, this is not directed at you, and whatever viewpoint you have, I respect your choice. But if eating meat were wrong from the Theravada point of view, the Supreme Sangha in Thailand could simply publicly state that is so, and the people would stop giving meat to monks, particularly when meat is far more expensive to give to the monks than veggies and fruits that are cheap and more easily available. If the Supreme Sangha simply made that announcement, no one would be offended. They would probably be happy to be able to give cheaper food to the monks.

So for me personally, until I see that happen, I'm not going to let the issue bother me.

I accept that other people have a totally different point of view.

No worry @vinlyn, I don´t fell offended for your words or for other users words in this subject. But if you read again my comment, I never say that eat meat is good or bad, I just put what the Buddha eat and a couple of link. Like you say well, each Buddhist has to make up his own mind about the eating meat issue.

Blessing

Lady_Alison

I think my interpretation of the Quran is that IDEALLY, the animal must be slaughtered and immediately prepared to be cooked and then eaten. I think if more people had to hunt and slaughter their own food, they would be more apreaciative of the life they were about to take in order for a family to live and be sustained.

Maybe a person who hunts could have a say in this arena.

vinlyn

I think my interpretation of the Quran is that IDEALLY, the animal must be slaughtered and immediately prepared to be cooked and then eaten. I think if more people had to hunt and slaughter their own food, they would be more apreaciative of the life they were about to take in order for a family to live and be sustained.

Maybe a person who hunts could have a say in this arena.

I think that might be true for some, but that maybe the opposite is true for others. In the part of the country I'm from originally, hunting is a big thing. I even taught in a school where there was a school holiday the first day of hunting season! I have pretty good friends here in Colorado Springs who are big time into hunting...so big that I won't eat at their house because I don't like wild game. But they are sooooooo into it.

Dakini

@snGus, I think that as long as someone has to do the ranching and slaughtering, maybe we'd rather have you do it than someone else, because you're been exploring cruelty-free ways to kill the beasts. So I'm going to vote "yes" for you going into the biz. :thumbsup:

federica

Moderator Note:
I have removed off-topic posts in this thread because the point addressed by the OP is quite a sensitive and contentious issue.
Let's not resort to chit-chat, willy-nilly....
Please stick to topic, guys.
Many thanks......

Victorious

@snGus

Hi .

Depending on what tradition you follow there is reason or no reason to be vegetarian.
If you are a Mahayana buddhist then yes. Mahayana Buddhism compells you to be vegetarian.

But the Theravada tradition does not.

And no tradition that I know forces vegitarianism on you.

I am a Theravadian and I eat meat. But my favorite dishes are veg!

/Victor

Dakini

Mahayana doesn't compel anyone to be vegetarian. Most Tibetans aren't vegetarian, nor are many Western Mahayana practitioners. Ch'an Buddhism apparently requires vegetarianism.

Victorious

@Daikini. Sorry but I thought there were Mahayana sutras that recommend not eating meat?

So I have heard from a good authority. But maybe my choice of words are wrong? Maybe recommend rather than compel?
Is it not also in line with the Bodhisattva ideal?

Not being familiar with the Sutras I do not really know myself.

But for the Theravada part I am pretty sure. .

/Victor

Dakini

The vegetarian question has been hashed and rehashed here so many times, that if there were something in the Mahayana sutras recommending the avoidance of meat, it would have been mentioned. It hasn't, so I'm assuming there isn't. I think it was in the Theravada sutras that the Buddha recommends to monks eating meat if an animal hasn't been killed specifically for them, and only if others offer it (if it shows up in the alms bowl, for example), but Thai monks eat meat, so do Tibetan monks. So it must not be that big a deal. Do Sri Lankan monks eat meat?

Victorious

Bless the Wikipedia. Maybe this can shed some light...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism

I think maybe it is the Nirvana Sutra that my friend meant.

/Victor

Victorious

Some Sri Lankan monks eat meat and others do not.

No I do not think it is a big deal at all.

/Victor

patbb

I truly believe eating meat is necessary for our health and this is the reason I won't abstain from it.

why do you believe this?

There are plenty of vegetarians and even vegans who are perfectly healthy.

do you have some kind of condition or disease that requires meat consumption?
i'm curious.

Victorious

@snGus

About your question about the cattle business. I guess you know as well as anybody that dealing in arms, drugs and meat is considered unskillfull in the eightfold path.

But if it is the only way to support your family then you have no choice. Family comes before personal considerations. I would take the job.

/Victor

Jason

@Daikini. Sorry but I thought there were Mahayana sutras that recommend not eating meat?

Textually speaking, sections of certain Mahayana sutras such as the Lankavatara Sutra, the Nirvana Sutra, and the Shurangama Sutra are highly critical of eating meat and advise a vegetarian diet. I also know from personal experience that many Chan Buddhists are strictly vegetarian. As far as how Mayahana as a whole views the issue, however, I don't know; but I suspect it leans more towards vegetarianism than not. The same can be argued about Theravada, as well.

Jason

I truly believe eating meat is necessary for our health and this is the reason I won't abstain from it.

why do you believe this?

There are plenty of vegetarians and even vegans who are perfectly healthy.

Yes, this is a good point. With so much food and supplements available today, particularly in the West, it's easy to have a healthy and balanced vegetarian (and even vegan) diet.

compassionate_warrior

Most Inner Asians, which is to say those practicing Tibetan Buddhism, eat meat. Most of these populations are traditional herders, like the Mongols, not farmers, and inhabit dry regions where it would be difficult to raise vegetables. Tibetans, Ladakhis, Mongols, and Mongol populations in Russia all eat meat, though rumor has it that HHDL has now successfully adopted a vegetarian diet after failing at it earlier in life, and one of the Karmapas is urging followers to adopt vegetarianism.

As for the sutras mentioned, those aren't commonly taught in Tibetan Buddhism. If they're taught at all, it would be to advanced students or advanced monks. It makes sense, considering that Tibetan teachers themselves eat meat; one wouldn't expect them to teach vegetarianism. Chinese Buddhism may emphasize those particular sutras. Can anyone speak to Zen on this score?

Wikipedia is useful, but not always accurate.

Victorious

As far as how Mayahana as a whole views the issue, however, I don't know; but I suspect it leans more towards vegetarianism than not. The same can be argued about Theravada, as well.

How can it be argued that Theravada leans towards vegitarianism? What suttas support that?

/Victor

federica

in my experience, people (and don't forget I'm 'people' too....;) ) will pretty much cling to one 'truth' or another, if it supports their way of thinking... and many people like - or at times, need - to be right.
Sometimes the worst lies we tell, are the ones we tell ourselves.....

but without a substantial portion of evidence or scientific data to support our views - it just becomes stubbornness....


i shud kno'.....

Jason

As far as how Mayahana as a whole views the issue, however, I don't know; but I suspect it leans more towards vegetarianism than not. The same can be argued about Theravada, as well.

How can it be argued that Theravada leans towards vegitarianism? What suttas support that?

/Victor

The teachings obviously discourage everything that goes into it, particularly the killing, butchering, and sale of animals for meat. The monks' rules do allow for certain types of meat to be accepted and eaten if not seen, heard, or suspected to have been killed specifically for them, but that doesn't mean the rules actively encourage a non-vegetarian diet for monks or Buddhists in general. Thus, in my opinion, taking everything together, from the teachings on harmlessness and compassion to those on wrong livelihood, I think it can be reasonably argued that Theravada (as well as Mahayana) leans more towards vegetarianism than not, even though the Buddha didn't make it a strict requirement.

Victorious

The teachings obviously discourage everything that goes into it, particularly the killing, butchering, and sale of animals for meat. The monks' rules do allow for certain types of meat to be accepted and eaten if not seen, heard, or suspected to have been killed specifically for them, but that doesn't mean the rules actively encourage a non-vegetarian diet for monks or Buddhists in general. Thus, in my opinion, taking everything together, from the teachings on harmlessness and compassion to those on wrong livelihood, I think it can be reasonably argued that Theravada (as well as Mahayana) leans more towards vegetarianism than not, even though the Buddha didn't make it a strict requirement.

Good point.

I find I have to agree.

/Victor

federica

:wow:

snGus

I truly believe eating meat is necessary for our health and this is the reason I won't abstain from it.

Why? Are you a nutritionist? Have you asked a nutritionist?

Look deeper, and you may be surprised what you learn. For starters:

Eating red meat will kill you

I actually have asked 3 nutritionists.

Invincible_summer

Mahayana doesn't compel anyone to be vegetarian. Most Tibetans aren't vegetarian, nor are many Western Mahayana practitioners. Ch'an Buddhism apparently requires vegetarianism.

For monastics and "devout" laypeople, yes. But otherwise, I think it depends on the temple. Some are very very firm on the vegetarian stance, while others would be okay if one just observed vegetarianism on the "special Buddhist days" (I think 1st and 15th of every month, plus those special days on the Buddhist calendar like Bodhi Day).

snGus

@snGus, I think that as long as someone has to do the ranching and slaughtering, maybe we'd rather have you do it than someone else, because you're been exploring cruelty-free ways to kill the beasts. So I'm going to vote "yes" for you going into the biz. :thumbsup:

Thanks for these kind words.

Dakini

Let's all give @snGus the benefit of the doubt, and assume he knows what he needs for his own health.

And about ranching and the meat biz, I still see it this way: there will always be ranchers, slaughterhouses, butchers. AFAIK, all of them, even the "natural" and organic ones, operate pretty brutally, when it comes to killing the animals. Wouldn't we prefer to have people like snGus running the operation, who are concerned with animal welfare and humane, suffering-free killing methods? I would. I'd buy meat from his operation, or shop at stores that he supplies.

If we don't support snGus, then we're leaving the field open to more of the same-old methods. Even if we don't eat meat, shouldn't we be concerned about the methods used in the market in general? Who knows, if snGus and co. educate consumers, he might bring about a revolution in the meat business.

seeker242

@Daikini. Sorry but I thought there were Mahayana sutras that recommend not eating meat?

There are. But they really don't recommend not eating it. the basically say "you must not eat it" Of course, not everyone follows that. But this is the reason why the majority of monks in China, Korea and Vietnam are vegetarians.

In the Brahma Net Sutra, the third of the 48 secondary precepts is a prohibition of eating meat. Here the question of karma is not connected to whether the meat was deliberately killed for the eater, but whether the eater is deliberately eating the meat.

3. On Eating Meat
A disciple of the Buddha must not deliberately eat meat. He should not eat the flesh of any sentient being. The meat-eater forfeits the seed of Great Compassion, severs the seed of the Buddha Nature, and causes [animals and transcendental] beings to avoid him. Those who do so are guilty of countless offenses. Therefore, Bodhisattvas should not eat the flesh of any sentient beings whatsoever. If instead, he deliberately eats meat, he commits a secondary offense.

Likewise the Lankavatara Sutra presents the question with greater emphasis.

DT Suzuki translation wrote:

The Blessed One said this to him: For innumerable reasons, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva, whose nature is compassion, is not to eat any meat; I will explain them: Mahamati, in this long course of transmigration here, there is not one living being that, having assumed the form of a living being, has not been your mother, or father, or brother, or sister, or son, or daughter, or the one or the other, in various degrees of kinship; and when acquiring another form of life may live as a beast, as a domestic animal, as a bird, or as a womb-born, or as something standing in some relationship to you; [this being so] how can the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva who desires to approach all living beings as if they were himself and to practise the Buddha-truths, eat the flesh of any living being that is of the same nature as himself? Even, Mahamati, the Rakshasa, listening to the Tathagata's discourse on the highest essence of the Dharma, attained the notion of protecting [Buddhism], and, feeling pity, refrains from eating flesh; how much more those who love the Dharma! Thus, Mahamati, wherever there is the evolution of living beings, let people cherish the thought of kinship with them, and, thinking that all beings are [to be loved as if they were] an only child, let them refrain from eating meat. So with Bodhisattvas whose nature is compassion, [the eating of] meat is to be avoided by him. Even in exceptional cases, it is not [compassionate] of a Bodhisattva of good standing to eat meat. The flesh of a dog, an ass, a buffalo, a horse, a bull, or man, or any other [being], Mahamati, that is not generally eaten by people, is sold on the roadside as mutton for the sake of money; and therefore, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva should not eat meat.

For the sake of love of purity, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva should refrain from eating flesh which is born of semen, blood, etc. For fear of causing terror to living beings, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva who is disciplining himself to attain compassion, refrain from eating flesh. To illustrate, Mahamati: When a dog sees, even from a distance, a hunter, a pariah, a fisherman, etc., whose desires are for meat-eating, he is terrified with fear, thinking, "They are death-dealers, they will even kill me." In the same way, Mahamati, even those minute animals that are living in the air, on earth, and in water, seeing meat-eaters at a distance, will perceive in them, by their keen sense of smell, the odour of the Rakshasa and will run away from such people as quickly as possible; for they are to them the threat of death. For this reason, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva, who is disciplining himself, to abide in great compassion, because of its terrifying living beings, refrain from eating meat. Mahamati, meat which is liked by unwise people is full of bad smell and its eating gives one a bad reputation which turns wise people away; let the Bodhisattva refrain from eating meat. The food of the wise, Mahamati, is what is eaten by the Rishis; it does not consist of meat and blood. Therefore, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva refrain from eating meat.

In order to guard the minds of all people, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva whose nature is holy and who is desirous of avoiding censure on the teaching of the Buddha, refrain from eating meat. For instance, Mahamati, there are some in the world who speak ill of the teaching of the Buddha; [they would say,] "Why are those who are living the life of a Sramana or a Brahmin reject such food as was enjoyed by the ancient Rishis, and like the carnivorous animals, living in the air, on earth, or in the water? Why do they go wandering about in the world thoroughly terrifying living beings, disregarding the life of a Sramana and destroying the vow of a Brahmin? There is no Dharma, no discipline in them." There are many such adverse-minded people who thus speak ill of the teaching of the Buddha. For this reason, Mahamati, in order to guard the minds of all people, let the Bodhisattva whose nature is full of pity and who is desirous of avoiding censure on the teaching of the Buddha, refrain from eating meat.

seeker242

Can anyone speak to Zen on this score?

Chinese Zen (Chan), Korean Zen (Soen), Vietnamese Zen (Thien) are all generally vegetarian if not completely vegetarian. Japanese Zen (Soto, Rinzai, etc.) generally not.

Dakini

@seeker242 Could you clarify please, whether these sutras are aimed at Bodhisattvas, or monks, or lay people? Would these teachings apply to anyone who takes the Bodhisattva vows? What's the difference between a primary offense and a secondary offense?