Whats the difference between Understanding/Agreeing with Buddha, and actually being Enlightened?

zenmyste

Is there a 'special feeling' you get, or is it just an ''ahhh, yes i understand now...'

Ive read alot where some Masters (of all traditions) say that Buddha says he didnt 'attain' anything, he just 'understood and awakened to his reality'

So when buddha taught his friends and monks, and when teachers teach us the 'way', does that mean once you fully understand the teachings and agree with them and live by them, then you are awakened also?

Whats is the 'actual' difference, the line between 'enlightenment' and fully understanding his teachings..

For example, a chef can teach you how to cook a meal, and then as soon as you agree and understand, you will then be able to 'cook that very meal'

So how does the whole Buddhist enlightenment work? If Buddha says that we can all become enlightened, then how and when?
Or do you think there is no 'special feeling'

Do you think those who believe theres a special feeling are the ones who will just suffer more?

'Is there a special feeling or not?

Let me know your opinions.
Regards!

federica

Before enlightenment you don't know enlightenment.
After enlightenment you do.

Before enlightenment you can't understand it.
After enlightenment, you understand it, but cannot explain it to those who do not understand it.

you can read the recipe, but to enjoy the dish, you have to gather all the ingredients and follow the recipe yourself. Only then, can you truly appreciate it....
A chef can describe the dish and the taste, but only you can experience it.

Only you can experience the true flavour of the dish, by actually following all instructions and carrying them out precisely to the letter.
Only then, can you taste the dish.

But even if someone alongside you does exactly everything you do, combines all the ingredients, prepares and cooks the dish - if they do not taste the dish, they will not know what you know.
the secret is not to follow the recipe.
the secret is to eat.

Chop water, fetch wood.
Before, after, no difference.

taiyaki

Clarity and the degree of letting go equals the degree of peace and no suffering.

The answer to your question differs in expression in all traditions.

But lets get stupid simple.

Either you're a suffering being or you're not.

misecmisc1

An example: Understanding/Agreeing with Buddha's teaching is like understanding that this way goes to the market.
But unless you walk on the way, even though you understand that this way leads to market, you will not reach/see market. So directly experiencing the unconditioned is like walking on that way to reach/see market.

Another example: if someone is told these are the dishes and these are the recipes to make them and after one makes all these dishes, then one becomes chef - so understanding this is like Understanding/Agreeing with Buddha's teaching.
But after you make all those dishes, then only you become a chef - this is like practising to directly experience the unconditioned, or become fully Awakened.

Cinorjer

Before enlightenment you don't know enlightenment.
After enlightenment you do.

Before enlightenment you can't understand it.
After enlightenment, you understand it, but cannot explain it to those who do not understand it.

you can read the recipe, but to enjoy the dish, you have to gather all the ingredients and follow the recipe yourself. Only then, can you truly appreciate it....
A chef can describe the dish and the taste, but only you can experience it.

Only you can experience the true flavour of the dish, by actually following all instructions and carrying them out precisely to the letter.
Only then, can you taste the dish.

But even if someone alongside you does exactly everything you do, combines all the ingredients, prepares and cooks the dish - if they do not taste the dish, they will not know what you know.
the secret is not to follow the recipe.
the secret is to eat.

Chop water, fetch wood.
Before, after, no difference.

Yes! Of course, for some people, Buddha's awakening is a metaphysical event that culminated multiple lifetimes of preparation on his part. You can no more hope to get enlightened than a Christian can hope to rise from the grave after three days.

But if Buddha was simply awakened to the cause and elimination of suffering, then you can become a Buddha. If the 8-fold path is what he says does it, then people don't stop to think, that's how he did it, too. All he did was take his own life and lay it out for us to follow. No, we don't have to wander around with a begging bowl. He said Right Livelihood, not "Become a homeless beggar".

It starts with right knowledge, right effort, right intention. For the rest, Buddha is saying it's something you do, not something you become.

Enso

On the night of his enlightenment the Buddha directly perceived anicca (impermanence) dukkha (suffering) and anitta (no-self). Before enlightenment we are deluded by conceptions and only "understand" this profound truth superficially (we can not truly understand while we have ego delusion). Our experience of reality is filtered through the distorted lens of ego perception. This false and deep-rooted belief in self/ego prevents us from directly perceiving things as the actually are. A fully enlightened person has shed the delusion of ego and thus no longer sees through the distorted lens of self. They are awake, while the rest of us are ignorant and deluded by ideas of self.

Enso

Through his compassion the Buddha taught that there is a way to see truth and end suffering caused by ego delusion. The way is the Noble Eightfold Path.

seeker242

The relinquishment of craving and clinging IMO. So for example if you agree and understand that you should not need to cling to (insert whatever here) but you still do, then you have proof that you haven't got it yet. The actual difference is letting go and not letting go.

So when buddha taught his friends and monks, and when teachers teach us the 'way', does that mean once you fully understand the teachings and agree with them and live by them, then you are awakened also?

To just understand them and agree with them, no. You actually have to put fourth the effort to walk the path, not just understand where it says to go. It's like a road map, you can study the map and memorize the map, even to the point of no longer needing it. But that ultimately still doesn't help you. The only thing that does help is actually going where it says to go.

If you can completely live by them, then yes.

In the Pali Canon, the Buddha called the difference "mundane right view" and "supramundane right view".

This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints.[2] Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is supramundane right view.[3] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html

genkaku

The ineptly-described Zen Buddhist gadfly Ikkyu Sojun was once quoted as saying, "I am not a Buddha. I am just an ordinary fellow who understands things."

misecmisc1

So how does the whole Buddhist enlightenment work? If Buddha says that we can all become enlightened, then how and when?
Or do you think there is no 'special feeling'

Do you think those who believe theres a special feeling are the ones who will just suffer more?

'Is there a special feeling or not?

Let me know your opinions.
Regards!

My understanding of Buddha's teachings says: Nirvana is not a state which is achieved - rather it comes about after all the conditions have ceased, or everything is let go off. So Nirvana is the direct experience of the unconditioned.

So there is no feeling attached to it - rather it is just seeing the things as they are - all conditioned things are anicca, dukkha, anatta - that is why direct experience is necessary because till there is theoretical understanding of this thing, there is still an 'I' which thinks and understands it - But when this thing is directly experienced, then you know that this thing is there, without the need for you to have faith in some other person's words - then this insight knowledge which is developed within you and directly experienced by you, will be unshaken by any conditioned phenomena and then instead, you will experience all the conditioned phenomena as 'just they are'.

As far as this question is concerned - How to become fully Awakened?, the answer is - by practising Buddha's teachings.

Enso

I like the analogy of Dukkha being a wheel out of kilter, the Eightfold Path is often depicted as a wheel with eight spokes, as all 8 aspects of the path are inter-connected and rely on each other, there is no one start point and end point so to speak. A lot of emphasis is put on mindfulness these days, but the path to true liberation requires equal attention and practice of all elements of the wheel, the wheel must run as smoothly as possible if there is to be liberation.

patbb

There is actually many things that happen to the people going thorough inner exploration and progressing through the path.

First people really get a good grasp on what is suffering.
on a physical, visceral level (thoughts, emotions, feelings, energy, sensations etc... all can be seen from the physical point of view).

There are many shifts that gradually happen in a person understanding and relationship to reality and everything in it.

Then they realize how to free themselves from suffering, internally. Like learning how to breath. It's a physical thing.

check this out perhaps:
http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/why-meditate/

then watch those:
http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/dr-ingram-and-hardcore-dharma-video/

DairyLama

Whats is the 'actual' difference, the line between 'enlightenment' and fully understanding his teachings..

It may be when we stop thinking about things and actually experience them.

I_AM_THAT

There is a big difference between understanding and knowing...

Enso

then watch those:
http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/dr-ingram-and-hardcore-dharma-video/

I personally don't think Ingram's hardcore dharma will be helpful, imo he is jhana/attainment fixated. Far enough if you've experienced the deeper levels of jhana and want help understanding what you've experienced. But even then I think it just adds to delusive conceptualization of practice/experience, there is no substitute for a good teacher.

Enso

... Also you could end up fueling desire and grasping after ideas of attainment.

Enso

So my advice is seek a good teacher who will help guide you along the path.

DairyLama

So my advice is seek a good teacher who will help guide you along the path.

Good advice, but how do we know if a teacher is "good"?

Enso

So my advice is seek a good teacher who will help guide you along the path.

Good advice, but how do we know if a teacher is "good"?

The Buddha taught how to evaluate a teacher.

http://buddhism.about.com/od/findingatempleandsangha/a/teacherfine.htm

http://greatplainsbuddha.com/guide-to-searching-for-a-buddhist-teacher

patbb

... Also you could end up fueling desire and grasping after ideas of attainment.

desires for enlightenment or attainments or grasping are just like any other desires.
just like any other cravings.
craving for ice cream, craving for money etc...

It is dealt with exactly the same as any other cravings.
On a physical, one can see the craving and deal with it appropriately so those should not pause much of a challenge for those who meditate properly.

I agree, Ingram approach is not for everyone, but he (and they) present the path in a clear way that can be helpful to know, or have some vague idea at least of the concepts of a map as a description of the events that happen to everyone on their spiritual journey.
The Buddha himself presented some form of maps and various milestones along the way as well, to have a modern explanation and point of view of them can make things much clearer sometimes.

Enso

I agree, Ingram approach is not for everyone, but he (and they) present the path in a clear way that can be helpful to know, or have some vague idea at least of the concepts of a map as a description of the events that happen to everyone on their spiritual journey.
The Buddha himself presented some form of maps and various milestones along the way as well, to have a modern explanation and point of view of them can make things much clearer sometimes.

We must be wary of focusing on certain aspects of the path while ignoring others. The whole Dharma / Eightfold Path is mutually interdependent. I have yet to see any talk or article by Ingram which is not focused solely on meditation, attainment and jhanas. If I'm wrong I apologize.

Enso

And Ingram just doesn't feel right to me. He talks of attainment with too much pride and lust. His language is crude and demeanor unrestrained. He may have shed much, but much still remains imo.

Enso

Ego Is Not a Good Teacher

My first teacher used to say that his entire function was pulling rugs out from under people. He'd see a student grow complacent or settle into new conceptual patterns, and riiiiip.

If your understanding is never challenged you can spend years fooling yourself. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into the interview room thinking I knew something. But when challenged, what my ego told me was great insight vanished like smoke in the breeze. On the other hand, when realization is genuine, a teacher can guide you to deeper realization.

Remember, you are not likely to see through the illusion of ego by protecting your ego.

How do you know which teachers are for real and which are phonies?... It's true that such authorization is no guarantee of quality. And not all unauthorized teachers are charlatans. But I would be very cautious about working with anyone who calls himself a "Buddhist" teacher but who has no association whatsoever with a recognized Buddhist lineage or institution. Such a teacher is almost certainly a fraud.

A few tips: Only the phonies claim to be "fully enlightened." Beware of teachers who ooze charisma and are worshiped by their students. The best teachers are the most ordinary ones. The true teachers are those who say they have nothing to give you.

From http://buddhism.about.com/od/findingatempleandsangha/a/teacherfine.htm

Enso

The first truth is that you can't really trust yourself to see through your delusion on your own. When you're deluded, you don't know you're deluded. You need some trustworthy outside help to point it out to you. This is why, when the Buddha advised the Kalamas to know for themselves, one of the things he told them to know for themselves was how wise people would judge their behavior...

So if you really want to become skillful in your thoughts, words, and deeds, you need a trustworthy friend or teacher to point out your blind spots. And because those spots are blindest around your unskillful habits, the primary duty of a trustworthy friend is to point out your faults — for only when you see your faults can you correct them; only when you correct them are you benefiting from your friend's compassion in pointing them out.

This is another great article on the importance finding a teacher and evaluating them, the source of the quote above: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/power_of_judgment.html

Anyway, I've dominated this thread with enough posts! Hope you find them useful. Namaste all _/\_

Victorious

Anything between about 0 seconds to a lifetime? Lol.

/Victor

genkaku

The Buddha taught how to evaluate a teacher.

Perhaps so, but my experience is that finding a good teacher is like Buddhist practice itself ... you cannot know ahead of time, no matter how precise the measurements you take. It's a crapshoot that throws you back -- like any practice -- on yourself.

Enso

The Buddha taught how to evaluate a teacher.

Perhaps so, but my experience is that finding a good teacher is like Buddhist practice itself ... you cannot know ahead of time, no matter how precise the measurements you take. It's a crapshoot that throws you back -- like any practice -- on yourself.

Very true. A balancing act. There's also a zen proverb about having shit on your nose, familiar with it? Right discernment is a skill that requires honing like any other skill. Listening to your gut instinct for one, put that's only part of it, you need to evaluate your own discernment. Does some of what the teacher say ring true to your own experiences? - the Buddha said do not take what I say on faith alone, test it. Are his actions and demeanor, as well as speech in-line with the Buddha-Dharma? Does he practice what he preaches?

Enso

No system is infallible, there's no way to be 100% sure beforehand, sometimes you've got to throw caution to the wind if you're to avoid getting caught in indecision by analysis-paralysis. That's where the faith element comes in. After all, you can evaluate and hypothesize all you want, experience itself brings wisdom. If we're ignorant of what we experience and kid ourselves due to pride or whatever, it might take a while before we gain wisdom from it.

Jeffrey

nirvana is non-grasping. Samsara is not real and it is due to grasping. Samsara is a confused perception.

So in a sense there is an attainment. The non-attainment is a teaching on emptiness. It's like cooking an egg for breakfast. When is the dividing line between ingredients and breakfast? It is just a matter of mind. There is no real egg and no real breakfast.

Yet we still have hunger. Hot and cold. Appearances are illusions but we still sense them.

Cinorjer

Even within the Zen community there are two schools of thought about what it means to be enlightenend. There is the sudden school, where the satori experience is a breakthrough that is everything, and the gradual school, where the first Aha! moment must be followed by a deepening of wisdom that may take a long time, as the process unfolds.

Jeffrey

In the tibetan tradition there is the lam rim slow realization and the upadesha pointing out yogic.

The lam rim creates the conditions to hit a point where direct realization of the yogic path is needed. For example there is a realization that negative karma is endless and there needs to be a direct cut to the roots of misperception. So both paths are needed as the lam rim creates conditions and the upadesha yogic path is the realization.

Upadesha is called pointing out because the guru points.

pegembara

"Seeking but not finding the house builder, I traveled through the round of countless births. Oh, painful is birth ever and again! House builder you have now been seen. You shall not build the house again. Your rafters have been broken down; your ridge-pole is demolished too. My mind has now attained the unformed nibbana and reached the end of every kind of craving." (Dh. 153-54.)

[Builder: craving/desire; House: the idea of I, me or mine;
Rafters: defilements; Ridgepole: ignorance]

Invincible_summer

Is there a 'special feeling' you get, or is it just an ''ahhh, yes i understand now...'

Ive read alot where some Masters (of all traditions) say that Buddha says he didnt 'attain' anything, he just 'understood and awakened to his reality'

So when buddha taught his friends and monks, and when teachers teach us the 'way', does that mean once you fully understand the teachings and agree with them and live by them, then you are awakened also?

Whats is the 'actual' difference, the line between 'enlightenment' and fully understanding his teachings..

For example, a chef can teach you how to cook a meal, and then as soon as you agree and understand, you will then be able to 'cook that very meal'

So how does the whole Buddhist enlightenment work? If Buddha says that we can all become enlightened, then how and when?
Or do you think there is no 'special feeling'

Do you think those who believe theres a special feeling are the ones who will just suffer more?

'Is there a special feeling or not?

Let me know your opinions.
Regards!

I think if you think you're "getting enlightened," then that's not it.

@Misecmisc1 gave a good example though - there's a huge difference between "understanding/knowing/agreeing" the Dharma and actually practicing it.

In theory, I know how to play guitar - I play bass, how much different can it be? You press your fingers to the frets and use your other hand to strum, right? But when I actually try to play, everything sounds wrong and amateurish even though I've played bass for many years. I'm going to have to sit down and actually practice playing guitar in order to truly understand how to play guitar. Even then, after a lifetime of playing, I still may not be able to say that I've mastered the instrument. Even famous guitarists and bassists say they haven't mastered it. Yet, many of us "mere mortals" would think these "guitar gods" are taking the piss.

And that's just with a musical instrument. Imagine having to do that with the human mind/ego...

I think someone (other than the Buddha himself) who may have a high level of attainment - or even enlightenment - wouldn't necessarily know/feel like they do. I don't think anyone can fully understand the Dharma, but I don't think that's the point. In fact, a good "beginner's mind" is essential to Buddhist practice, IMO. The point isn't to know the Dharma or Enlightenment as some sort of fact or scholarly concept, but to experience it in a way that won't necessarily be possible to explain.

RonC

@Enso - about Daniel Ingram, please keep in mind the context when listening to the Dharma talk he is giving. In that video he is talking to a group at a place called the "Cheetah House", which is essentially a research center and retreat at Brown University for meditators who are in the midst of what is called the "Dark Night". So they had a strong interest in knowing the jhanas/nanas and how to get through them - because they were stuck in some pretty awful ones. He was just fulfilling their needs. If you've never heard of him discussing anything but jhanas, then you have not read his book, which I highly recommend. The first third of it is focused on historical context and morality/ethics. You can find it here: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/Mastering Adobe Version.pdf

He does talk a lot about the jhanas and so on, and does so directly with no flowery language, but that is only because people are so hungry for real information and tired of the flowery/evasive language. There is an epidemic of evasiveness in Western Dharma scenes. Almost an unspoken law against actually describing the path and what happens directly and practically. Ingram is breaking this law and doing so very publicly. He is able to do so because he is independent of any institution and can support himself as a medical doctor. Also, as you've pointed out, he has an oversized and abrasive personality and appears to enjoy shaking people up and challenging the status quo. We are lucky he is out there putting his reputation on the line and not really caring. But this speaks to the question raised by this thread - which is so basic. It is tragic that serious practitioners don't know this from their teachers. Again - the whole community is just so evasive.

@ zenmyste - waking up is not something that happens cognitively, so when it happens, it isn't like an "aha" moment at all. You don't suddenly think about the path and it all falls into place - it isn't like that at all. It can happen to you and you may not be able to express in words what it was like - even to yourself. The primary experience is one of deep relief. On one hand it feels like none of your questions have been answered, but on the other, they no longer matter. It feels like they were answered by becoming irrelevant. The craving to understand vanishes and you are left with a lot of peace which literally feels both physical and mental. It is as clear as daylight when it happens. You'll know it happened because you'll stop caring whether it even happened at all!

For more on this, check out: http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/general-dharma-teaching/getting-it-done/

and: http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/cessation/

Enso

@RonC I will check out Ingram's book, thanks.

Floating_Abu

I agree, Ingram approach is not for everyone, but he (and they) present the path in a clear way that can be helpful to know, or have some vague idea at least of the concepts of a map as a description of the events that happen to everyone on their spiritual journey.
The Buddha himself presented some form of maps and various milestones along the way as well, to have a modern explanation and point of view of them can make things much clearer sometimes.

We must be wary of focusing on certain aspects of the path while ignoring others. The whole Dharma / Eightfold Path is mutually interdependent. I have yet to see any talk or article by Ingram which is not focused solely on meditation, attainment and jhanas. If I'm wrong I apologize.

Not only is he singularly focussed, his whole approach seems odd and seems rather to be a mismashed version of spiritual philosophies presented to those looking for something to grasp. Then -- presented as "Buddhism". I am happy if he helps, but hope he does no harm either

_/\_

“Having some attainment is the jackal's yelp; having no attainment is the lion's roar.”
- quoted elsewhere

Floating_Abu

@RonC I will check out Ingram's book, thanks.

Why bother?

This is self-corporate promotion at its best -- http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/250403#Comment_250403 -- or rather ...

The flower smiles at least.

Best wishes,
Abu

Floating_Abu

Is there a 'special feeling' you get, or is it just an ''ahhh, yes i understand now...'

Ive read alot where some Masters (of all traditions) say that Buddha says he didnt 'attain' anything, he just 'understood and awakened to his reality'

So when buddha taught his friends and monks, and when teachers teach us the 'way', does that mean once you fully understand the teachings and agree with them and live by them, then you are awakened also?

Whats is the 'actual' difference, the line between 'enlightenment' and fully understanding his teachings..

For example, a chef can teach you how to cook a meal, and then as soon as you agree and understand, you will then be able to 'cook that very meal'

So how does the whole Buddhist enlightenment work? If Buddha says that we can all become enlightened, then how and when?
Or do you think there is no 'special feeling'

Do you think those who believe theres a special feeling are the ones who will just suffer more?

'Is there a special feeling or not?

Let me know your opinions.
Regards!

In Zen there is the saying, do not do as the Master did, know what the Master knew.

And likewise, a man of old said a painted cake picture cannot satisfy your hunger.

Tentatively we can talk about enlightenment and Buddha and special knowledge and feelings but at the end of the day, we have to just taste and live it for ourself.

And that is the high claim and premise of Buddhism - that we can all live more peaceful, sane and happier lives with - with hope, a little less selfishness and a lot more clarity.

That hope and premise is contained within the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, and for the Zen student the merit of zazen can also not be stated.

Best wishes, and good travels, friend,

Abu

Floating_Abu

Within the Buddhist world, there are not many Buddhists who use the Four Noble Truths anymore, even in Thailand. People say, ‘Oh yes, the Four Noble Truths - beginner’s stuff.’ Then they might use all kinds of vipassana techniques and become really obsessed with the sixteen stages before they get to the Noble Truths. I find it quite boggling that in the Buddhist world the really profound teaching has been dismissed as primitive Buddhism: ‘That’s for the little kids, the beginners. The advanced course is....’ They go into complicated theories and ideas - forgetting the most profound teaching.

The Four Noble Truths are a lifetime’s reflection. It is not just a matter of realising the Four Noble Truths, the three aspects, and twelve stages and becoming an arahant on one retreat - and then going onto something advanced. The Four Noble Truths are not easy like that. They require an ongoing attitude of vigilance and they provide the context for a lifetime of examination

Luang Por Sumedho

patbb

“Having some attainment is the jackal's yelp; having no attainment is the lion's roar.”
- quoted elsewhere

are all Tibetan Buddhists wearing the funny hats are "jackal's yelp" in your eyes @Floating_Abu?

you don't get to wear the funny hats, or teach in any tradition without having some verified attainments.

So you wear the hats, and display your "attainments" for everyone to see but don't talk about it like an elephant in the room?

There is nothing wrong with attainments, only wrong is to have greed for it, which is dealt with in meditation just like the thousands other greed about anything in life that we all have.

Gui

Lots of words, lots of talk about enlightenment. First thing to do is find the you that is to be enlightened. Then go from there.

patbb

Within the Buddhist world, there are not many Buddhists who use the Four Noble Truths anymore, even in Thailand. People say, ‘Oh yes, the Four Noble Truths - beginner’s stuff.’ Then they might use all kinds of vipassana techniques and become really obsessed with the sixteen stages before they get to the Noble Truths. I find it quite boggling that in the Buddhist world the really profound teaching has been dismissed as primitive Buddhism: ‘That’s for the little kids, the beginners. The advanced course is....’ They go into complicated theories and ideas - forgetting the most profound teaching.

The Four Noble Truths are a lifetime’s reflection. It is not just a matter of realising the Four Noble Truths, the three aspects, and twelve stages and becoming an arahant on one retreat - and then going onto something advanced. The Four Noble Truths are not easy like that. They require an ongoing attitude of vigilance and they provide the context for a lifetime of examination

Luang Por Sumedho

if you did your homework instead of attacking without knowing, you'd have realize that Ingram, and everyone else that i know of in the pragmatic dhamma scene say exactly the same thing as what you quoted.
There is the experiences from the intense meditation, realizing the true nature of the self, DO by direct observation, which can be quite useful and desirable, but the 4 Noble truth and morality are the work of a lifetime.

Floating_Abu

Dear patbb

As you know, I have skimmed his book before - and again, I will repeat: his so called writings seem more like a convoluted mish mash of different religious philosophies and ideals.

As to his roadmap for meditation, to put it lightly, um..crock! Predicting how each step is supposed to be, engendering in people's minds how it should be? .. well I am sure there are a lot of self anointed teachers out there but he is not one I would even regard as one. Still, there is a million pieces of spam that go out every day and they will always find a target.

As to (named) jhanas and whooosh deep meditation, big deal. Any experienced student who meditates can meditate but a teacher does make them not. Buddhism is a bit more encompassing than that, and requires a bit more (if we are going to have play the Buddhist game) genuine insight and wisdom.

I would recommend others who are interested in learning about Buddhism to go for the established lineages and teachers of repute. And not to have so much added pre-programming if possible...Of course I know it is hard to distill what is what, but that is a game we all have to go through and we can also rely on our own judgements, and that there are still good people around...so perhaps there is also that possibility.

Still, I would point out a shoddy entrance if I see one and you are certainly entitled to call for people from the shop that you currently favor.

Finally the 4NT and practice are not distilled separately like that, but I have no wish to go into that much detail on that.

Best wishes,
Abu

vinlyn

Floating Abu, your words may be about Buddhism, but do not seem very Buddhist-like in their nature. Hence you are getting a backlash.

I will agree with you that there is a tendency by Westerners to be somewhat dismissive of basic Buddhism (although I would prefer to give the example of the 5 Precepts) and go for the more exotic. Perhaps they subconsciously see it as being more intellectual.

patbb

As to his roadmap for meditation, to put it lightly, um..crock! Predicting how each step is supposed to be, engendering in people's minds how it should be? .. well I am sure there are a lot of self anointed teachers out there but he is not one I would even regard as one. Still, there is a million pieces of spam that go out every day and they will always find a target.

Tibetan Buddhist has it's map as well btw.

crock too?

Even Zen have them.



Perhaps you understand the concept of map a bit differently.

take hundred people, put them in a room and make them do something like focusing on the breath.
Soon enough, people will start coming to the teacher and say "hey, i was sitting here and this thing happened to me."
soon after someone else come with a similar story.

After a while, all of the people who had that first experience, starts to come to the teacher to tell about a second experience.

But none of the people who didn't have the first experience, had the second experience.

Now you, the teacher, begin to realize some patterns in there.

Alot of the people who had the second experience, say that before they had it, they all did something specific. Like relating to their feelings in a certain way.
So, being a teacher eager to experiment, you take a bunch of the people who didn't have the second experience yet, and tell them to try that specific thing.

Then you realize that many of them get the second experience quickly after.

This is the beginning of all teachings. Because all of human minds work very similarly on the same mechanisms, patterns have to emerge. There is no choice in the matter.

All of this while keeping in mind that everyone is also very different.

Floating_Abu

Scientology also have a roadmap. Buddhist roadmaps if they are done are only try to transmit the formlessness through form, therefore, in essence it is a forced situation but one that is necessary at the beginning. Those who try to instill form and do not yet transcend the material, only risk blinding themself but much much more of a pity, other well meaning travellers. And it is to that there is one word - pity.

Each to their own and each within their own karmic circles, of which we all share ultimately anyway.

Well wishes,
Abu

patbb

Buddhist roadmaps if they are done are only try to transmit the formlessness through form, therefore, in essence it is a forced situation but one that is necessary at the beginning. Those who try to instill form and do not yet transcend the material, only risk blinding themself but much much more of a pity, other well meaning travellers. And it is to that there is one word - pity.

yes, the Buddha himself doesn't need the map.

But since he decided to teach and guide others, and teach and guide others to teach then maps, advices, observations of how people react to the teachings, instructions, guidelines etc... became a good idea.

Jeffrey

It's also part of Tibetan Buddhism to have a guru. Still they can't say whether your experience is right or wrong. They might, but you don't have to agree with them. My teacher says that if she told you exactly what to do it wouldn't work. It would be like reading a book about how to ride a bike. Ok pedal then lean and brake. It might help to have some hints but hints are all they are.

Floating_Abu

Buddhist roadmaps if they are done are only try to transmit the formlessness through form, therefore, in essence it is a forced situation but one that is necessary at the beginning. Those who try to instill form and do not yet transcend the material, only risk blinding themself but much much more of a pity, other well meaning travellers. And it is to that there is one word - pity.

yes, the Buddha himself doesn't need the map.

But since he decided to teach and guide others, and teach and guide others to teach then maps, advices, observations of how people react to the teachings, instructions, guidelines etc... became a good idea.

Dear patbb

You misunderstand what I am saying - I did not say guidance, instruction etc is not necessary. I have never said the problem is a so called map, or that people should not have kind and experienced guidance, if they can that is a positive thing for all of us.

I HAVE said, and I repeat again, that the problem is specifically that I do not respect or trust the writings of Ingram nor his so called guidance which seem more like a mismash of ideologies and philosophies than based in genuine Buddhist practice.

His arahantship claims are the least of his worries IMO.

I would also say the same about Scientology if anyone asked me -- if it is your thing, go for it! But I don't like its leaning, nor its methods -- and I am happy to say so.

Ditto for Ingram passing his works off as Buddhism.

Best wishes,
Abu

patbb

Buddhist roadmaps if they are done are only try to transmit the formlessness through form, therefore, in essence it is a forced situation but one that is necessary at the beginning. Those who try to instill form and do not yet transcend the material, only risk blinding themself but much much more of a pity, other well meaning travellers. And it is to that there is one word - pity.

yes, the Buddha himself doesn't need the map.

But since he decided to teach and guide others, and teach and guide others to teach then maps, advices, observations of how people react to the teachings, instructions, guidelines etc... became a good idea.

Dear patbb

You misunderstand what I am saying - I did not say guidance, instruction etc is not necessary. I have never said the problem is a so called map, or that people should not have kind and experienced guidance, if they can that is a positive thing for all of us.

I HAVE said, and I repeat again, that the problem is specifically that I do not respect or trust the writings of Ingram nor his so called guidance which seem more like a mismash of ideologies and philosophies than based in genuine Buddhist practice.

His arahantship claims are the least of his worries IMO.

I would also say the same about Scientology if anyone asked me -- if it is your thing, go for it! But I don't like its leaning, nor its methods -- and I am happy to say so.

Ditto for Ingram passing his works off as Buddhism.

Best wishes,
Abu

it would certainly help making your case clearer if you'd specify what part you wouldn't label as buddhism since i don't remember reading anything that i haven't read somewhere else from other Buddhists teachers.
other then a clear interpretation of a map that many other are using as well.


it's easy to say this teacher or that teacher is crap, what he does isn't good, without backing up the claims.
which only make it sound like this is coming from a angry fan boy of another teacher, instead of coming from the genuine desire to understand or clarify things, comparing the different traditions and methods and their efficiency.

as for the rest of the email, you conveniently avoided addressing any of the points that were raised earlier by your messages, and now pretend as if you did not write any of them and simply stated your lack of gut trust for this person.
again, this really help to give the impression that you are not motivated by good intentions.
it would also help if you'd address some of the points that are raised instead of skipping over them and just posting more, different material instead.

RonC

@RonC I will check out Ingram's book, thanks.

Why bother?

This is self-corporate promotion at its best -- http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/250403#Comment_250403 -- or rather ...

The flower smiles at least.

Best wishes,
Abu

Yikes! This is really a first - I have never been accused of being a corporation. Despite what some of our more out of touch politicians may say, corporations are not people, and I am not, nor ever have been, a corporation.

If you read my site you'll find that I'm just one guy trying to share what he knows. For free. No t-shirts. No "programs", "systems" or books. No beads, bells or other chotchkies. Nothing to sell.

I jumped into that thread for the same reason anyone else would jump into a conversation where they are the topic and people are saying some wildly inaccurate and just plain crazy things about you: I wanted to clear things up and humanize myself. And besides, I felt I owed it to patb - who stuck his neck out so earnestly and was essentially being punished for expressing his thoughts.

I know this will go absolutely nowhere in changing your mind Abu, but for others: please don't believe the hype. I'm really not a bad guy.

Ron