How can one be Buddhist and not believe in rebirth?

betaboy

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

misecmisc1

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

to end existing suffering in current life and to not arise suffering in future in current life.

federica

Adherence to the concept of re-birth is the same as the concept of adhering to any other teaching.
You must determine for yourself what you do with the information.
There are many Buddhists who find accepting such a concept, very hard, let alone without argument.
do you accept everything, at face value, without question?

DairyLama

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

On the assumption that enlightenment is possible in this lifetime.

federica

Oh yeah.
Hadn't thought of that one!

David

I don't really understand the question. If this is the only life lived then it should be even more imperative, no?

I think that we are not only reborn with every new life but every profound bit of information.

genkaku

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

@betaboy -- This is just my take, but the 'concept' of rebirth or 'believing' in rebirth always makes me laugh. Concepts and beliefs are OK for inspiration and encouragement, but they hardly go the distance in Buddhism ... by which I mean there's not a snowball's chance in hell they will bring anyone an honest peace or allow them to be happy.

Having a 'concept' about rebirth is like having a concept about the sky or a concept about laughter or a concept about a kiss. Sure, you can do it and talk about it and think about it ... the sky doesn't mind; laughter doesn't mind; kissing doesn't mind. To my mind, what's true is just true so there's no real need to worry about it too much. Believe in rebirth (by whatever definition) or don't believe in rebirth (by whatever definition) ... just practice whatever Buddhist practice you have chosen and see what happens. One day, perhaps, the sky will just turn out to be the sky... or not ... and either way you'll be at peace.

Sabre

Because the dhamma has a lot of fruits in this life already. The most important thing is: If you live as if there will be a next life (whether it is true or not), that won't do you harm, only good. Right now you will be moral (practice the precepts), which brings happiness immediately. As the Buddha said, the Dhamma is good in the beginning, middle and end.

If there is another life, you are safe because of your morality. If there is not, it is still good for this life.

This is how I interpret the sutta below:

With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'If there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the breakup of the body, after death — will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of existence.' If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the observant here-&-now; and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html#fn-1

"one who holds to a doctrine of existence" I see as one who lives his life morally as if it could influence the next life, but doesn't nescessarily belief in it. Maybe the literal meaning is a bit different, but I think regarding it like this is helpful.

Metta!

SattvaPaul

One can be a Buddhist without believing in rebirth, imo. If you want to follow Tibetan Buddhism though, you'll have a tough nut to crack.

It seems also to me that rebirth was taken for granted in all schools of Buddhism in the past. Whether it's just taking it on faith or having a direct experience, it's hard to say how that would have affected practitioners' outlook on the world.

vinlyn

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

As the basis of a moral code.

Tosh

To improve this life!

justshea

I don't believe in rebirth either...but I do believe that all good acts ring in eternity.

federica

Nope. Just for 3 generations - unless of course you're famous, then they write stories about you....
Eternity is too long a period for anyone though.

betaboy

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

On the assumption that enlightenment is possible in this lifetime.

What's the use if there's no rebirth?

justshea

Why do we need a carrot and stick (karma and rebirth) to help one another?

Invincible_summer

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

On the assumption that enlightenment is possible in this lifetime.

What's the use if there's no rebirth?

With this line of thought... If we're all just gonna die eventually anyway, why bother eating healthy or exercising? Or doing ANYTHING?

It's an extreme (nihilism) that Buddhism avoids.

Even if there's no rebirth, Buddhism teaches us that there are things that we can do according to the Dhamma that can benefit us and those around us within our lifetimes.

zenff

If one doesn't believe in rebirth, then why practice the dhamma?

For no reason at all. Practice for the sake of practice. Or at least that’s the idea.

But when I’m honest I have to admit that I like meditating. It often is a calm and beautiful thing to do.
Also my life is happy and carefree compared to the days when I was a drunken, lying, raping and murdering thief. :sawed:
So I guess practice - in a weird way - makes me happy.

PHennings12

Choice.

B5C

I believe that the belief of rebirth cheapens life. Your life should not be about the reward after death. I believe that concept is kinda selfish.
Also there is no evidence of rebirth.

SattvaPaul

I believe that the belief of rebirth cheapens life. Your life should not be about the reward after death. I believe that concept is kinda selfish.
Also there is no evidence of rebirth.

There is plenty of evidence, what you probably meant to say was that there is no proof.
And rebirth is hardly about reward. In traditional terms, it's highly unlikely to be (re)born as a human.

PrairieGhost

Rebirth helped me see that my life, my body, my personality aren't mine, in terms of facing the thought of being alive, but being someone completely different.

And it made me consider 'what would not be different?', which is a question that can't be answered in words, though it can be answered.

So, rebirth helped me realise deeper compassion, because I see we're all the same. There was a beggar in Venice today with lumps for feet, and there but for the grace of God go I. And in that light, I try not to offer beggars money out of sentimentality, looking down with pity, but as to equals, from a sense of responsibility, because I see that I have utterly no excuse for apathy. Hopefully in time I will be able to scatter more than coins.

I also try not to make the mistake many right wingers make - 'if it were me, I'd pick myself up and get a job'. If it were you, you wouldn't have your mental attitude either, you wouldn't carry over any self-essence, so you'd do the same as he, i.e. all he can do.

Invincible_summer

Rebirth helped me see that my life, my body, my personality aren't mine, in terms of facing the thought of being alive, but being someone completely different.

And it made me consider 'what would not be different?', which is a question that can't be answered in words, though it can be answered.

So, rebirth helped me realise deeper compassion, because I see we're all the same. There was a beggar in Venice today with lumps for feet, and there but for the grace of God go I. And in that light, I try not to offer beggars money out of sentimentality, looking down with pity, but as to equals, from a sense of responsibility, because I see that I have utterly no excuse for apathy. Hopefully in time I will be able to scatter more than coins.

I also try not to make the mistake many right wingers make - 'if it were me, I'd pick myself up and get a job'. If it were you, you wouldn't have your mental attitude either, you wouldn't carry over any self-essence, so you'd do the same as he, i.e. all he can do.

Very nicely put. I hadn't actually thought of it this way before!

betaboy

If there is no rebirth, then why can't we just do what hedonists do and not worry about dharma, precepts, ethics etc.? After all, there is no rebirth and we're not going to experience the fruits of our karma, right?

betaboy

Another doubt: if there is no rebirth, what happens to a guy who commits suicide?

vinlyn

If there is no rebirth, then why can't we just do what hedonists do and not worry about dharma, precepts, ethics etc.? After all, there is no rebirth and we're not going to experience the fruits of our karma, right?

You are getting a little frustrating.

You don't want to believe in rebirth...fine, lots of us remain unconvinced...although that is not the same as not believing in it.

But, quite a few forum members have outlined for you why the Dhamma is of value, even without rebirth. I guess you're just ignoring us.

And then, you answer your own question to some extent: "dharma, precepts, ethics". What the heck is wrong with ethics. What is wrong with using the Dhamma as a code of ethics and using it as a group of principles to better treat others and how to interact with the world?

I'm beginning to think you have an ulterior motive in this conversation.

zenff

If there is no rebirth, then why can't we just do what hedonists do and not worry about dharma, precepts, ethics etc.? After all, there is no rebirth and we're not going to experience the fruits of our karma, right?

You appear to think that ‘living life to the fullest’ is the opposite of practicing.
As if all you really want to do is kill, rape etc, but you can’t do that unfortunately because of the negative karma consequences in your next life.
You must be joking.

Bliss is one of the (seven) factors of enlightenment. Our practice is supposed to make us happy in this life. If it doesn’t we’re doing something wrong.
Imho.

And like vinlyn noticed: are you taking our responses seriously?

Arthurbodhi

Another doubt: if there is no rebirth, what happens to a guy who commits suicide?

He die, obvious.

About the original question. I'm in a middle way in it, I see death and rebirth in this period of life, about life after death, maybe. But is better try to make this life better instead to wait for the next one.

If you want to know your future life, look at yourself in the mirror.

pegembara

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

Sabre

If there is no rebirth, then why can't we just do what hedonists do and not worry about dharma, precepts, ethics etc.? After all, there is no rebirth and we're not going to experience the fruits of our karma, right?

I think so. If you hold the view that there absolutely is no rebirth, it could for some people lead to not worrying too much about the precepts. I can see how this can be the case for some. If this is the only life, what's the use? It's not like holding the precepts is always easy and the results are clear immediately, while the results of indulgence and self-centeredness are.

Not all people will think like this, but some who have a certain mindset, can think like this, I can very well imagine. This is not to say one type of people is in any way better or more Buddhist than the other, this is just how it is. It is also clear in the world that a lot of people who don't really belief in future fruits of conduct, act quite unintelligent to put it kindly. Also, I advice you to read the sutta that I quoted before, where this view you suggest is mentioned very clearly.

Now, householders, of those contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves' — it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities — good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable contemplatives & brahmans do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html#fn-1

It doesn't say people who don't believe in rebirth will inevitably have bad conduct, but it is certainly a possibility. So the sutta goes on to explain that it is best to live as if there is rebirth. If you can't be sure about it, the way to be safe is to live like there is. That way this life will be happy and worthy, and a possible next life will also be.

With metta!
Sabre

Sabre

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

With all respect, I think this sutta is out of context here. It is about holding a view of a self, not about rebirth and how it can influence our practice. There are plenty of evidences in the sutta that point out the link between good conduct, good practice and good rebirth. The Buddha mentioned it often, so it is not "attending in appropriately". .

It is attending inapropriately if you think it is the "I" that is reborn, which is what this sutta tries to point to. But that is another matter altogether.

I think this topic poses a very wise question.

Metta!

Jayjay

As simply as @Tosh put it....I think the bottom line is that Nibbana brings peace and happiness for the rest of this existence. Whether it be in rebirth, or just this life. It ends out suffering for as long as we exist. In rebirth it will end our suffering for good. In regular life/death circumstances it will end our suffering for as much life as we have left. It doesn't really matter if you do or do not believe in rebirth. Among all things, it is just an opinion.

hermitwin

there are many criminals like that.
they would rather die than go to prison.
if they believe in karma/rebirth, they would probably choose not to die.
believing in rebirth does make a diffrence in many people's life.

If there is no rebirth, then why can't we just do what hedonists do and not worry about dharma, precepts, ethics etc.? After all, there is no rebirth and we're not going to experience the fruits of our karma, right?

federica

@betaboy, hope you have enough to go on.