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Reincarnation / What happens after death? - Newbie needs some clarification
lotusbuds
Explorer
What does Buddhism teach us about life after death? The idea of reincarnation. I am so confused by it. If Buddhism does not teach us that a soul or separate self exists, then what is being reincarnated? Are we still 'the same' when we are reincarnated or completely different people with nothing transferred from our previous life? If so, then what is transferred? (I apologize if I am using incorrect terminology. I figured this would be the most basic way for me to express my questions). Some schools of Buddhism believe in a pure land. Is this similar to a heaven? Still, other schools also teach about different realms. The hell realm, godly realm (if I recall correctly), ghost realm. I am also very confused about these teachings, as I was under the impression that ghosts/heaven/concept of God did not exist in Buddhism?
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Buddhism does teach about six different realms of existence that a being can be reborn into. The difference between these and the view of say Christianity is that life there isn't eternal and one dies and is reborn just as in a human life.
Someone in the forum mentioned, karmic imprints. This made sense to me. When you do negative, it affects something in the next left...for example, they mentioned that if you were inclined to steal, you will carry that with you into the next rebirth? Is this a form of 'consciousness?' because to me its more like a personality....a character trait...greed...?
In Tibetan Buddhism they say there can be memory of past lives, or at least, experiences and teachings retained from the past life.
If you were inclined to steal in one life, the fruition of those karmic seeds might be poverty in this life. If you were generous in a past life, the fruition of that karma might be wealth or beauty in this life.
This exact question came up just a few weeks ago. You must be brand new here, lotusbuds. I'll see what I can find on this among old threads.
Here, you might find some of the material here helpful:
http://www.newbuddhist.com/discussion/13661/hell-realms-debate
"In view of the evidence the conclusion is difficult to avoid that the term viññâna [consciousness] in Early Buddhism indicated the surviving factor of an individual which by re-entering womb after womb (gabbha gabbham: Sn. 278, cp. D.iii.147) produced repeated births resulting in what is generally known as Samsara" (Wijesekera, Buddhist and Vedic studies, p. 106 1994). (Brackets are mine.)
But it is not like that. There is no self. Just like a movie is just a sucession of images, what we experience is just pieces of consciousness after one another. And if consciousness is like that, surely the other parts of our experience are as well. Our body is not posessed, our emotions arise without an owner of them, our actions happen without anyone doing them.
As one sees through this, the sense of self is destroyed. And then also the chain of rebirth is broken. According to the pali cannon, there can not be many more rebirths for such a person. Exactly because they see no reason for rebirth, because there is no 'self' to be reborn. So there is no reason to cling to anything.
I understand this may not directly answer the question, but there have been quite some topics about this already. Also there is quite some information on the internet, if you search around for a bit. Also search for Dependent Origination. But the main thing it comes down to is to practice the wisdom, practice your virtue and meditation.
But I tried to answer in a way to show you it is not uncommon for people not to understand this. Even if we think we do have an understanding, it is so hard to really grasp it in our core, because we basically are afraid of it. It's not just 'newbies' who don't get this. A lot of 'oldbies' don't get it either. So it's ok to be confused.
Metta!
Sabre
except for 1 point.
there is no eternal soul.
Death is an aspect of life. Practice helps to sort this out in ways more convincing than emotion or intellect.
No matter how hard you try to run away you will always be here and now. That is a reality.
The word "opposite" gives away the intellectual framework. "Opposite" is not a realistic construct, but it is popular so ... let it ride.
As to life/form, I refer in my mind to the human being. Did you ever notice that when one person refers to another, s/he may say, "S/he's a stockbroker" or "S/he's a mother/father" or "S/he's a baseball player" or "S/he's compassionate." And the description may be quite appropriate. But if you ask the person being described in one way or another whether the description is fully true ... well, it never really is. Whatever the descriptive used, still, something is left out. It's OK, but it's incomplete. A stockbroker may also be an accomplished bike-rider. A mother/father may also be a stamp-collector. A baseball player may also be a fan of knitting. A compassionate person may also be an utter asshole. It's like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall ... whatever descriptive, whatever form, is applied, still there is something that is not described or controlled or confined or believed. It's like "zero" or a joker in a deck of cards: Life has no meaning until it is put together with something else ... at which point its meaning becomes inescapable and perhaps huge. And the question of what "else" there could possibly be raises its confounding head.
Is a daisy a daisy? In one sense, of course it is ... let's not ask asinine questions! But in another sense it's just the joker showing off its capacities. Ain't that a daisy-cutter?
Sorry ... this is just the fumbling best I can manage at the moment.
I know our being lucid is a shock to both of us, but sit down for a minute, we'll get over it...
“If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world. But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease ‚Äî free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.”
Buddha’s quote comforted me, because as someone who is learning about the belief system of Buddhism, I have a hard time relating to rebirth. However, just like believing in a God or heaven is questioned since it 'cannot be proven', why then cannot we criticize and question the concept of reincarnation or rebirth? The fact, well, in my experience at least, is that I have not seen any proof of it. Did Buddha not come from a Hindu society and perhaps just took along the concept of reincarnation with him? What if he were born somewhere other than India? I guess that really shouldn't matter...
I do have a question though. Can one be a buddhist without believing or being impartial to the concept of rebirth? And if so, if you do not have to ‘believe’ in the concept of rebirth to be a buddhist, what remains? I was under the impression that being a buddhist is living your life preparing for death and rebirth – or, should I say, the avoidance of rebirth…by working on your karma…how you live this life will determine what you are reborn as or if you are reborn at all. So, if we do not believe in rebirth, then can we actually call ourselves buddhist?
Another question – how do you all feel about the possibility of being reborn and potentially having a family, a spouse different than the one you have now? I love my husband dearly and I feel that the concept of rebirth takes away from my closeness and intimacy of my relationship. Its like, if we are just going to continue having cyclic rebirth and possibly be in different families with multiple intimate relationships or marriages, it barely makes my current one seem special. It takes away from the validity of this life. It makes it seem empty and upsets me quite frankly. Is this a misunderstanding I have? How do you all view this? It makes me uncomfortable and really, is one of the main reasons I am not so open to the concept of rebirth. It makes our existence seem very ‘unspecial’ so to speak. I understand the concept of no 'self' but then, this concept of rebirth and living your life for the oncoming death just makes it seem depressing and makes me feel like the moment we are in and the people we love are being neglected and not worthwhile since all that matters in the end is how we are preparing for our final moment in each life.
Am I really over analzing this needlessly? Its upsetting lol. What do you all think?
If you don't believe Mt Fuji exists, does it make it false?
Such processes are not dependent on people believing on them or not, but you can believe it or not as you wish.... What happened to the husband and children you had in your previous life? Yes,
No, it isn't, you're only upset because you're adhering to a fixed concept when in fact there is constant flux,
and
I think you should just focus on doing the best you can, now, Now.
If we're changing, than what is constant? If there is no fixed self, there is no self at all. Because if it is changing, it can't be a self, can't contain a self.
"Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html
Now I'm not saying we don't exist, mind that. It's not like the matrix
Metta!
We practice with what we have in this moment, exactly as the quote you posted points out. And how you practice is what defines a true Buddhist for me; not their particular views.
Still, contemplating the idea of rebirth is something I would advice, but there is no need to take a stance without any real evidence or conviction. Which may or may not come, that's all ok. It's very important to practice in the moment. Buddhism is not just a preperation for death, it's an all-encompassing path. So right now you practice love and compassion for your family; the Buddha never condemned that or anything. So I personally don't see how a view of rebirth would go against having and loving a family. But I can maybe calm you by saying that if you have a strong attachment to your family, when you die and rebirth exists, you will have a strong tendency to be reborn in or near the family.
What I'm about to say now may sound like mindless blabber for a skeptic, but research on reincarnation shows that people are often reborn in the same family.
So either way, no need to worry!
With metta!
Sabre
Metta!
"soul" never figures in my mind when I study the concept of rebirth.
But in rebirth..there is no identity...there is no Heather with blonde hair and blue eyes that was married to Joe and had 2 kids named Jenny and Michael...therefore it does not matter or make sense to think of who you might be married to in some other life. Because you are never the same...you are never Heather twice. Heather was Heather from 1920 - 1990 and no one can take that away or change it....your memories/experiences/memories of relationships (am I correct here?) do not exist when you are reborn. Your perception and understanding of your previous relationships are no longer there because your personality and preferences are no longer there. I guess maybe then, each life is very special because all in all, we do actually get one chance to live it...and once this body dies, there is no more 'Heather' or 'Joe' for example...this life is no longer contained in the consciousness...am I understanding?
When I first started reading into Buddhism, and of course, I will say straight out that I am very new to Buddhism....I was so happy...my heart was so light and filled with joy when I read about being mindful of your actions and words...and caring for others...how each action can be such a positive change...it seems so common sense but it can be a real eye opener when you are reading it in a different way for the first time.
Federica, I think my biggest obstacle is that I love life so much, and I love where I am now...I'm afraid...I feel like if this is just another life of so many that I have had and will have, that what I experience here is not special or unique. My bond with my husband is just another bond of many I have experienced and will experience...But I guess it isn't like that at all. It is unique to who I am in this life and cannot be experienced like this any more. Not ever. So it is special.
In Buddhism, the soul gets reincarnated due to its karmic consequences. A person has today because of his past. A person will have the future because of his present. Inch by inch, that is how the soul makes its journey. Depending on his/her karma, he/she will attain his/her existence accordingly.
Though the soul makes the journey, he or she would not remember his/her past because to know without proper merit (strength of mind/willpower) would be more detrimental to the being rather than helping. This is because until the person has great practice in cleansing all the defilements (kilesa), etc., then he/she has little chance against pure Knowledge. It could be very blinding in its intensity. Imagine one knowing his previous life of being murdered or something...there is no peace for that individual...I believe this kind of phenomenon is studied about one remembering his/her past through dreams that appear as if that person's, but in another life.
To answer in short: what is "transferred" is one's karma (both merit and demerit). Karma is what shadows the soul through its destination. The kind of karma we have is what propell us to exist with a certain "family" group. Family group usually exhibit similar quality or trait of action. If a person wants to be a singer, his/her action toward its cultivation will help ensure he/she exists in a place where its goal of being a singer is met. Seldom is a soul born in the wrong "family". Buddhism's ultimate objective is to lead a soul/consciousness from suffering through a certain guideline. The planes of existence are called Samsara and the beings occupying either plane of existence experience relative level of happiness/suffering. Nirvana is said to exist outside of Samsara. Thus, a birth in such realm is said to be free from death/birth.
It does not negate the existence of other factors like Gods for such purpose. In fact, depending on how a person commits his/her action, he or she could take life as a God. Thus, the existence of God or their belief is not the main focus of the Teaching.
The reason why sentient beings compelled to take birth and after birth is through ignorance of their karma. If they are aware of their karma and karmic consequences and work toward their own liberation through Knowledge, then they don't needlessly suffer by being compelled to exist in the lower planes of existence. The lower planes of existence such as hell, animal, ghosts, etc, are the realms very least likely to have the opportunity for betterment of the soul. For example, when the soul gets reborn in hell, the soul knows its suffering. But, due to the condition down in hell where creatures enjoy instant pain and hunger, etc., they couldn’t do anything to alleviate their suffering.
Being born in the human realm is said to be the most auspicious of the realms because the Law of Nature on Earth allow sentient being existing on such plane the potential to better itself. Heaven, similar to Hell, provides very little opportunity.
I hope I have answered your questions based on my understanding of Buddhism without sounding too preachy. Though I thought I am a Theravada Buddhist. In some aspects, I find myself holding the view of Mahayana. But then again, I strive to refrain from attaching myself to anyone Doctrine but the main goal of distilling whatever goods in any vehicle of Knowledge for the purpose of Enlightenment.
I do still tend to hold a different view of rebirth though. I am open to other views coming to me, and I logically understand the Buddhist view of it I just find it to be something I have a hard time accepting. I am still more of a view of the idea that people in different lives can (but it doesn't always happen by any means) come together multiple time to repay karmic debts. I've read a lot on that subject and I find it very fascinating, especially in terms of past life regressions. It makes the most logical sense to me at this point so it's what I've held onto. Life doesn't make sense any other way. That we are reborn to learn lessons taught by karma, and that at some people we learn all the lessons (or enough of them) that life has to offer and we become enlightened and are "out there" as teachers to those still being reborn. I think that to become enlightened, we have to experience all that life has to offer, including being rich, poor, abused, abuser, lover, hater, etc.
Synopsis:
Delog refers to one who has crossed the threshold of death and returned to tell about it. For Delog Dawa Drolma this meant she lay without any vital signs of breath, pulse or warmth for five days. During that time the link between her mind and body was released and her consciousness journeyed to other realms of experience. What she saw then, recounted in these pages, engendered in her a limitless compassion for sentient beings. She experienced the almost unimaginable contrast between existence within the pure display of enlightened mind and existence within samsaric delusion and ignorance.
"As a child in Tibet, I sometimes found my mother, Delog Dawa Drolma, surrounded by an audience listening with utmost attention as she told of her journeys to other realms...she was revered throughout Tibet as a lama, but she was more famous for being a delog. Hers was not a visionary or momentary near-death experience. She undertook her journey according to instructions she had received from Tara." ~ Chagdud Tulku. (Source: http://goo.gl/msNCa).
1. Rebirth can not be proven.
2. Rebirth is an superstitious element from Hinduism which Buddhism branched out from.
3. Faith in rebirth is not needed to live a good and compassionate life.
I believe rebirth is kinda selfish. Why? Some people just do good things, so they can have a better rebirth. It's better to live knowing that there is afterlife/rebirth. You know that you have limited time on this planet and no chance to start over again. You got this life to be compassionate as you can.
Karma simply means volitional action.
There's no judgement, no hitting-stick, no punishment, no evaluation.
Karma is as process, not a sentence.
As for the OP, I'll keep it short. Since there is no definite way of knowing, why waste time and energy thinking on it? Live well in this life. Then whatever happens after you die, happens. You will cross that bridge when you come to it, friend.
Perhaps it might be the wrong way to go about it..or maybe not....perhaps I am over analyzing, but for someone like me, I like to have certain things in order...and since I am new to buddhism, I don't want to just dive in without at least having a slight idea of what it is I am looking for.
Federica, maybe I do not yet understand karma. But tell me, if there is no punishment, then why do we use words like 'good' karma and 'bad' karma...and 'karmic imprint' affecting rebirth. If you continue to build up the bad karma from your negative actions that will result in a less favourable rebirth, how is that not a form of punishment or evaluation? And as soon as you introduce guidelines as to what is good and what is bad, you have already created presumptions of good vs evil and reward vs punishment.
Many people do not receive the back handed slap of karma in this life. We see serial killers do horrible things to people and live long lives, die peaceful deaths in their sleep, with no remorse to torture their psyche....in these cases, the cause and effect of karma has not been evident to us, has it? How do we know that it ever has been or ever will be? Is that belief not simply faith?
Enter the promise of bad things to come in the next life...and what do you have?
That can very well be a primary reason for many Buddhists to practice good karma, I'm sure. They may very well see no evidence of its cause and effect in their present life. And without remembrance of any other life (if there is such a thing), where is their proof of the effects of actions? It almost seems like you have to have 'faith' in karma/rebirth as a promise of better things to come/or worse.
Could it even be one of the only reasons people would go out of their way to do more good than bad? Much like the concept of sin...
Do bad = sin = suffer in the after life
Do bad = bad karma = suffer in rebirth
Do good = virtuosity = entrance into heaven/no more suffering
Do good = good karma = favourable rebirth/less or no more suffering
No proof of either one of them to 'exist'...no scientific formulas....no proof that good will churn out good and bad will churn out bad.
It all depends on what we think/say/do in response to outside influences and our perception of same... so really, kamma begins with how you evaluate the illusory and transitory events which you experience.
If you want to avoid falling in a hole, then make sure you don't walk towards it in the first place...
The Buddha told us that trying to unravel the complexities of how kamma works is basically a sure-fire way of driving ourselves insane.
so essentially, all you have to do is to keep mindful.
But please know:
Kamma is not associated with sin, punishment, bad or good.
It is a direct result of how mindfully we behave at that moment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_results.html?cx=015061908441090246348:al1bklhbjbi&cof=FORID:9;NB:1&ie=UTF-8&q=kamma
Punishment or evaluation?/ Good Karma or Bad?
Consider thinking of Karma as a natural event like rain. If I walk out into the rain with only a T shirt, I get wet. I am not being punished into getting wet so much as just reaping the natural result of my actions. The same occurs with me putting on a raincoat that keeps me dry. There was not someone or something evaluating my actions and blessing me into remaining dry beyond the reaping of the natural results of my actions. Good karma is that inertia that leads beings along the path to the extinguishment of suffering. Bad Karma is that inertia that leads beings off that path.
"bad" or "good" is subjective.
It's an evaluation of something we generalise about but nothing is ever cut and dried.
Sometimes, it's better to consider such things as 'skilful' or unskilful'...
Seeing this in this life is the karma that matters. Karma that produces next life is the same principle, but a secondary issue. As said, there is nothing good or bad about this. There is no punishment in this either. It's just cause and effect.
If I drive my bike uncarefully, big chance are I one day fall or crash into something. But if I drive with care, I'll stay more safe. It's not accurate to say that crashing a punishment for being uncareful. It's just an effect of being uncareful.
About the same with mental processes and karma. But there it is often not so clear because we are not mindful enough. For example, we may think we can lie a bit without being influenced by it. Or killing a bug doesn't affect us. But that's not so and that's why there are the precepts. It takes a while of practicing the precepts and our mindfulness to see the influence of this. If we don't see this, naturally we will think serial killers, rapist and thiefs can get away with their deeds. But nobody can run away from his or her mind.
Metta!
Doth thou think I protest too much, Madam?
Transformation is a wonderful thing.
Address the op's posts, thanks.
When we observe our own life, we tend to see certain things happening to us---good and bad---that are true to us. Yet, we don't see it happening to others. If we consider about others, we may work ourselves into a state. It is better advised to worry about self. If one has bad things happening to self, then like Buddha's advice to Anguilamala, take it, accept it, absolve it. If not, then, continue to propagate the seed of suffering.
In Buddhism. There is no coersion. There is no conformity that is against an individual. A person takes as much or as little as he wants. There is no condemnation of any kind. It is merely a practice to end suffering should one subscribes. Otherwise, it is very in harmony to many idealogies and nature.
http://buddhadhamma-yoav.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.html
An Ethiopian warlord is subject as much to rebirth as an Ethiopian doctor.
It's what you do, not what something outside of yourself determines.
Besides, really, wondering such things is neither fruitful or productive.