Placebo and/or Positive Attitude?

Sile

Our discussion in the energy healing thread brought a question to my mind--is the placebo effect the same as positive thinking, or can those be separated and analyzed?

Can there be a grumpy, negative patient who nonetheless believes in the Red Pill, and to what extent does his belief trump his negative attitude? Or is it more likely that people who "believe in the Red Pill" do so because they "believe in" their own healing in general?

I guess another way to ask the question is: are the patients' individual beliefs in the efficacy of their placebo (or the real drug) taken into account? For one thing, anyone participating in such a trial knows they have a 50-50 chance of not getting a real pill. I would think this would drop the overall confidence levels of both the placebo and non-placebo patients in their own healing.

Sile

Ugh - sorry - meant to put that in "Diet & Habits."

person

I remember watching some report (60 minutes I think) where antidepressants were shown to not be much more effective than a placebo. (I'm too lazy right now to source that info) I think it can be assumed that someone taking an antidepressant probably has a negative attitude. So if its true that antidepressants are as effective as a placebo I'd say that placebo and positive thinking are seperate.

This is just speculation on my part.

Vastmind

Thanks @person for the tip. here is the story.....
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7399362n

I also thought of them as different.

DairyLama

For one thing, anyone participating in such a trial knows they have a 50-50 chance of not getting a real pill. I would think this would drop the overall confidence levels of both the placebo and non-placebo patients in their own healing.

Yes, it might, but it's the only reliable way to test the effectiveness of a treatment. It's removing the variable of confidence / belief. What would be interesting is a trial where the same treatment was given to skeptics and believers and the outcomes compared.

DairyLama

Our discussion in the energy healing thread brought a question to my mind--is the placebo effect the same as positive thinking, or can those be separated and analyzed?

I think the placebo effect is most closely related to belief ( faith? ). So if you believe something's going to make you feel better then it's more likely to happen.

Sile

What would be interesting is a trial where the same treatment was given to skeptics and believers and the outcomes compared.

Definitely agree!

DairyLama

Does the same thing apply to meditation? I mean do you have to believe in meditation in order for it work?

Tosh

Our discussion in the energy healing thread brought a question to my mind--is the placebo effect the same as positive thinking, or can those be separated and analyzed?

There's been some interesting scientific experiments done with regards the placebo effect; I can't remember all the ins-and-outs but in the book "13 Things That Science Cannot Explain" it gives a run down of stuff with regards the placebo (and nocebo).

I think if you look to science, you will find some answers there.

My own thoughts are that 'placebo' is a very powerful tool. In A.A. we say, "Fake it till you make it", in the Bible it says "Ask and you will receive" (it doesn't mean ask for a new car, but for mental traits you wish to possess), and in Buddhism I believe there is a tantric practise where you pretend you're some deity and you will have the traits of that deity (such as great love and compassion).

Placebo in this way is a kind of a tool; if I believe I am disciplined - guess what? I am disciplined. If I believe I am lazy and a slob - guess what? I am lazy and a slob. If I can believe that by just believing I'm disciplined I will be, then I will be - straight away.

federica

Ugh - sorry - meant to put that in "Diet & Habits."

Excuse delay.



:thumbsup:

Sile

Ugh - sorry - meant to put that in "Diet & Habits."

Excuse delay.



:thumbsup:

Tanx! And until it was moved, the placebo effect had convinced us we were, nonetheless, discussing Diet & Habits!

Sile

This is fascinating - excerpts from Wired:

Placebos Are Getting More Effective. Drugmakers Are Desperate to Know Why.

"Two comprehensive analyses of antidepressant trials have uncovered a dramatic increase in placebo response since the 1980s...

The fact that an increasing number of medications are unable to beat sugar pills has thrown the industry into crisis...A special task force of the Foundation for the National Institutes of Health is seeking to stem the crisis by quietly undertaking one of the most ambitious data-sharing efforts in the history of the drug industry. After decades in the jungles of fringe science, the placebo effect has become the elephant in the boardroom.

...the significance of the survey goes beyond Big Pharma's finally admitting it has a placebo problem. It also marks the twilight of an era when the drug industry was confident that its products were strong enough to cure illness by themselves.

"Before I routinely prescribed antidepressants, I would do more psychotherapy for mildly depressed patients," says the veteran of hundreds of drug trials. "Today we would say I was trying to engage components of the placebo response—and those patients got better. To really do the best for your patients, you want the best placebo response plus the best drug response."

The rest of the very extensive article here:

http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo_effect

DairyLama

To really do the best for your patients, you want the best placebo response plus the best drug response."

The rest of the very extensive article here:

http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo_effect

With depression there is usually a need for talking and drug therapy, and here it seems talking therapy ( counselling ) is being seen as the placebo element. Which means the patients needs to have confidence and trust in the counsellor.