Nourishing our true self

Sile

A nice thought for the day from today's Facebook wall:

"Above all else, we need to nourish our true self—what we can call our buddha nature—for so often we make the fatal mistake of identifying with our confusion, and then using it to judge and condemn ourselves, which feeds the lack of self-love that so many of us suffer from today." (Sogyal Rinpoche)

genkaku

Sounds great.

Now let me see ... do I have any honest reason to believe that I actually know what this "true nature" or "Buddha nature" is?

I guess that's what practice is for.

seeker242

Faith is an honest reason! In what the Buddha taught that is.

vinlyn

OP, I think this is flawed reasoning. I would say that our "true self" is that which is not refined and improved, and that one goal of any religion (including Buddhism) should be that refinement and improvement that takes us to a higher level of behavior.

RebeccaS

I'm not knocking what you're saying, it just reminded me of this and it made me laugh http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Facebook Spiritual&defid=6153525

Sile

OP, I think this is flawed reasoning. I would say that our "true self" is that which is not refined and improved, and that one goal of any religion (including Buddhism) should be that refinement and improvement that takes us to a higher level of behavior.

Agree--refined, improved, nourished....

I read it as "assume that your truest nature is the good one, not the deluded one. Don't get hung up believing that you are your "bad stuff.""

You could also look at it as clearing away that bad stuff that is obscuring your true nature; you are not the grime, but the thing that is left when the grime is cleaned away.

taiyaki

“We already have everything we need.

There is no need for self-improvement.

All these trips that we lay on ourselves — the heavy-duty fearing that we’re bad and hoping that we’re good, the identities that we so dearly cling to, the rage, the jealousy and the addictions of all kinds — never touch our basic wealth. They are like clouds that temporarily block the sun. But all the time our warmth and brilliance are right here. This is who we really are. We are one blink of an eye away from being fully awake.”

- Pema Chodron

vinlyn

“We already have everything we need.

There is no need for self-improvement.

All these trips that we lay on ourselves — the heavy-duty fearing that we’re bad and hoping that we’re good, the identities that we so dearly cling to, the rage, the jealousy and the addictions of all kinds — never touch our basic wealth. They are like clouds that temporarily block the sun. But all the time our warmth and brilliance are right here. This is who we really are. We are one blink of an eye away from being fully awake.”

- Pema Chodron

In my view, that's cliched-feel-good Buddhism.

If we already have everything we need, why would we read or listen to Buddha's teachings? Why are we here on this forum?

Saying we need to refine and improve ourselves does not say that we are "bad". It's just saying we are not all we can be and that we do not understand all that we can comprehend.

Jeffrey

@vinylyn, a large part of Pema Chodron's teaching is to have confidence in oneself. This is traditional rationale for teaching Buddha nature. An example is that we don't say that we are having a wrong experience in meditation. Wrong meditation is impossible.

Also Pema Chodron has many teachings that are not feel-good. In my tape she says 'meditation is not about feeling good'... and 'that (previous sentence) must be sending shockwaves around the hallway.

Additionally the tradition is yogacara where it is viewed (the path) as clearing away clouds from primordial awakened heart rather than madyamaka view of nurturing non-view or non-self.

taiyaki

“We already have everything we need.

There is no need for self-improvement.

All these trips that we lay on ourselves — the heavy-duty fearing that we’re bad and hoping that we’re good, the identities that we so dearly cling to, the rage, the jealousy and the addictions of all kinds — never touch our basic wealth. They are like clouds that temporarily block the sun. But all the time our warmth and brilliance are right here. This is who we really are. We are one blink of an eye away from being fully awake.”

- Pema Chodron

In my view, that's cliched-feel-good Buddhism.

If we already have everything we need, why would we read or listen to Buddha's teachings? Why are we here on this forum?

Saying we need to refine and improve ourselves does not say that we are "bad". It's just saying we are not all we can be and that we do not understand all that we can comprehend.

different strokes for different folks.

person

Whether enlightenment is something to be attained (in a non-normal fashion) or something that is there but the obscurations just need to be cleared away is a topic that generates discussion and disagreement when it comes up at my local Buddhist group.

I think I prefer the removing obstructions view, though I probably identify with my negative stuff and seek to improve myself.

how

Path advisory notice.
Shouting "shotgun" when stepping onto the raft to the other shore may result in an aimless swim.

vinlyn

@vinylyn, a large part of Pema Chodron's teaching is to have confidence in oneself. This is traditional rationale for teaching Buddha nature. An example is that we don't say that we are having a wrong experience in meditation. Wrong meditation is impossible.

Also Pema Chodron has many teachings that are not feel-good. In my tape she says 'meditation is not about feeling good'... and 'that (previous sentence) must be sending shockwaves around the hallway.

Additionally the tradition is yogacara where it is viewed (the path) as clearing away clouds from primordial awakened heart rather than madyamaka view of nurturing non-view or non-self.

I'm not stating an opinion about all of her teachings. I'm stating an opinion about what taiyaki posted.

vinlyn

different strokes for different folks.

Too simplistic. It says that everything is valid. Buddhism is no more accurate than Scientology. Than handling snakes in the pulpit. That Jim Jones. Just different strokes.

Jeffrey

@vinylyn, I was trying to show that there was a reason for it to be 'feel good'. Pema Chodron is giving nourishment to confidence.

Sile

“We already have everything we need.

There is no need for self-improvement.

All these trips that we lay on ourselves — the heavy-duty fearing that we’re bad and hoping that we’re good, the identities that we so dearly cling to, the rage, the jealousy and the addictions of all kinds — never touch our basic wealth. They are like clouds that temporarily block the sun. But all the time our warmth and brilliance are right here. This is who we really are. We are one blink of an eye away from being fully awake.”

- Pema Chodron

I'll always remember reading that for the first time, some years ago. It was like my soul breathed a sigh of relief--"the heavy-duty fearing that we're bad and hoping that we're good"--man, did that ever hit home. It's not that we don't continue to work on our problems and obscurations, just that we can see them as obscurations rather than live gripped with fear that our obscurations are our true self.

how

“We already have everything we need.

There is no need for self-improvement.

All these trips that we lay on ourselves — the heavy-duty fearing that we’re bad and hoping that we’re good, the identities that we so dearly cling to, the rage, the jealousy and the addictions of all kinds — never touch our basic wealth. They are like clouds that temporarily block the sun. But all the time our warmth and brilliance are right here. This is who we really are. We are one blink of an eye away from being fully awake.”

- Pema Chodron

In my view, that's cliched-feel-good Buddhism.

If we already have everything we need, why would we read or listen to Buddha's teachings? Why are we here on this forum? Saying we need to refine and improve ourselves does not say that we are "bad". It's just saying we are not all we can be and that we do not understand all that we can comprehend.

Not sure which path you are closest to or if you are interested but almost anything "Dogen" writes about was to address this same question which is what brought about his own realization.

Sile

For me, the central point is clarified in Sogyal Rinpoche's observation on "the fatal mistake of identifying with our confusion, and then using it to judge and condemn ourselves."

The idea isn't that we don't have confusion, just that ultimately that confusion isn't us. We're like a mirror with dirt on it--we can be dirty, but we aren't the dirt.

Sile

@vinylyn, I was trying to show that there was a reason for it to be 'feel good'. Pema Chodron is giving nourishment to confidence.

Agree with this. Raised fundy, I still have a lot of confidence/guilt issues. The idea that you're "born bad" is very strong in Christianity, and reverberates throughout the West to this day, even if only subtly.

Vastmind

@vinylyn..said "If we already have everything we need, why would we read or listen to Buddha's teachings? Why are we here on this forum?

Saying we need to refine and improve ourselves does not say that we are "bad". It's just saying we are not all we can be and that we do not understand all that we can comprehend.


:eek: This struck me. It made me think of my Buddha nature very hard.
In one way, I agreed that I was not born 'bad', but can you clarify something for
me? If we are not all we can be and do not understand/comprehend....would
you say it is still viewed in a negative manner?
Im not bad, but im not all I can be either.
Im on the forum, because I definetly have a hard time comprehending
suffering.

taiyaki

We work really hard to realize that this human heart and mind. Basic openess.

Thats the point.

Some work their whole lives. Some don't. Whatever works for you.

vinlyn

@vinylyn..said "If we already have everything we need, why would we read or listen to Buddha's teachings? Why are we here on this forum?

Saying we need to refine and improve ourselves does not say that we are "bad". It's just saying we are not all we can be and that we do not understand all that we can comprehend.


:eek: This struck me. It made me think of my Buddha nature very hard.
In one way, I agreed that I was not born 'bad', but can you clarify something for
me? If we are not all we can be and do not understand/comprehend....would
you say it is still viewed in a negative manner?
Im not bad, but im not all I can be either.
Im on the forum, because I definetly have a hard time comprehending
suffering.

When I was a teacher, for each unit in my earth science course, I had a running notebook. Instead of writing individual lesson plans each year, this notebook was my ongoing collection of lesson plans. Each year, as I would complete a particular lesson, I would take a few minutes to think:
1. Is this lesson the best it can be (even when it was very successful)?;
2. Should I delete and it look for a new/different lesson on that topic;
3. Should I revise (to some degree) this lesson.

I think we could all benefit from that when we tackle something significant. Doctors and surgeons ought to do that. Chefs ought to do that. ... We, in our spiritual life ought to do that. Doesn't mean we didn't do good to begin with, but maybe we can do better.

Vastmind

We work really hard to realize that this human heart and mind. Basic openess ....."

If this is your description of my true self/ Buddha nature and how to
nuture it, I AGREE !!!!!

:thumbsup:

Vastmind

@vinylyn "....In my view, that's cliched-feel-good Buddhism.
As opposed to what? Feel-bad Buddhism? lololololol

"Each year, as I would complete a particular lesson, I would take a few minutes to think:

So see? We agree. Feeling good about WANTING to improve on your
skills, whatever they might be, makes one HAPPY ! That drive for the devine :om:

how

@Vastminds
An interesting post!
I wonder if Buddha nature has as many different discriptions as describers.
At this moment I think that
Buddha nature can be an experience or an intellectualization. As a meditative experience it's both etherial and imutable. Etherial for how much conditioning obscures our sight of it and imutable as a constant presense that always rivals our own.

As a concept or an intellectualization it's just a compass pointing the lost, home.

None of this says that it's overtly positive or negative, just reality. For those wishing to bridge the gap between Christianity and Buddhism and in light of Sile's opening post and can stand a minimilist's take.

The choice has always been such grace or suffering.

Whatever obscures our Buddha nature creates suffering. Suffering has many definitions in Buddhism about whatever we pull towards us or push away because that is just what obscures the experience of our own innate adequacy.

Vastmind

@how...ok, I think I see. As it pertains to the OP, the only real reason why I had
connected the Buddha Nature was the True self terminology, so ok, I can
see where I might have had a suitcase full of views there.

Then the 'discussion' had turned to whether believing your true self
was golden, and fabulous was somehow a negative vibe. So....thats
where I was going with that....haha

The rest of your post...well, you'll have to give me a min. to
marinate on that. I have
enjoyed many of your insights on this forum.

EDIT: The suffering remark was my ego being sarcastic.

Jeffrey

I have an interesting perspective. I hear voices all day and even when I wake up from sleep. There is very little opportunity to feel away from suffering. So it's interesting to think of buddha nature in that context. People always say therapy and medicines can fix it but in my case medicines have little effect and therapy I am not sure what angle to take, just declaring the voices unreal only antagonizes them. So Buddha nature from my side seems quite to do with bending in the wind of my voices with the emphasis that the lift from suffering is found amidst turmoil as my meditations only destabilize my mind to an even greater extent than normal. So the point of contact is in the yielding quality, but now it seems like a tempting morsel of craving to find that 'golden light'.

vinlyn

...

The choice has always been such grace or suffering.

...

What do you mean by that?

how

@vinlyn
Meditation/life/practise can be experienced as a sliding scale where one opens to ones buddha nature (original face) (grace) (innate completeness) or obscures it through attachment and thereby suffers.

Vastmind

@vinlyn
Meditation/life/practise can be experienced as a sliding scale where one opens to ones buddha nature (original face) (grace) (innate completeness) or obscures it through attachment and thereby suffers.

I liked the second explanation much better! hahaha
It connected all the things we were referring to!
Buddha nature, suffering, true nature, attachments, etc.

Sile

I have an interesting perspective. I hear voices all day and even when I wake up from sleep. There is very little opportunity to feel away from suffering. So it's interesting to think of buddha nature in that context. People always say therapy and medicines can fix it but in my case medicines have little effect and therapy I am not sure what angle to take, just declaring the voices unreal only antagonizes them. So Buddha nature from my side seems quite to do with bending in the wind of my voices with the emphasis that the lift from suffering is found amidst turmoil as my meditations only destabilize my mind to an even greater extent than normal. So the point of contact is in the yielding quality, but now it seems like a tempting morsel of craving to find that 'golden light'.

Jeffrey, you have an utterly beautiful way with words.

lamaramadingdong

I think there's a certain amount of belief out there that Buddhism is a practice that is designed to dull one's experience of life. A belief that happiness is not possible due to suffering, or that "happy Buddhists" are some hippy-dippy new age beings. And on the other end of the spectrum, that Buddhism means that you don't feel pain or feel bad when bad things happen-"Oh well, that's life". A belief that calm is found in not feeling.
The truth is, to me anyway, is that Buddhism is a way to experience very deep emotions, including both intense joy and profound sadness, and everything in between, but always recognizing the truth about all of our emotions and realizing the true nature of emptiness.

Cloud

The truth is, to me anyway, is that Buddhism is a way to experience very deep emotions, including both intense joy and profound sadness, and everything in between, but always recognizing the truth about all of our emotions and realizing the true nature of emptiness.

Second that. We don't turn away from anything, but at the same time we understand it's all empty.

andyrobyn

The truth is, to me anyway, is that Buddhism is a way to experience very deep emotions, including both intense joy and profound sadness, and everything in between, but always recognizing the truth about all of our emotions and realizing the true nature of emptiness.

Second that. We don't turn away from anything, but at the same time we understand it's all empty.

I agree. Also, in terms of we already having everything we need, practice can be seen as coming to understanding this through experience, rather than just knowing it, believing or being told it.
I see living fully and being engaged with all aspects of our experiences is part of that process.

vinlyn

@vinlyn
Meditation/life/practise can be experienced as a sliding scale where one opens to ones buddha nature (original face) (grace) (innate completeness) or obscures it through attachment and thereby suffers.

Well actually, that was going to be my point. That's it's not grace OR suffering, but rather...as you put it...more a sliding scale.

DairyLama

Wrong meditation is impossible.

Believe me, it's very possible.

Vastmind

@andyrobyn said "....in terms of we already having everything we need, practice can be seen as coming to understanding this through experience, rather than just knowing it, believing or being told it. "

That is going in my Buddha Bag! Simple and concise!

Mindfull

Iife can be simply, if we see it as it is, the fatal mistake is reading to much into these types of quotes, especially to a delusional mind,.

Sile

Wrong meditation is impossible.

Believe me, it's very possible.

I think the argument would be that if it's wrong meditation, maybe it's not meditation.

It depends on ones definition of meditation, I think.

vinlyn

Wrong meditation is impossible.

Believe me, it's very possible.

I agree, Porpoise.

Jeffrey

Wrong meditation is impossible. At least according to my teacher She says that the only wrong meditation is if you think that it is wrong.

However she also says that you should evaluate your goals in meditation and measure if they are met. And perhaps ask for a different method.

I know these two sound contradictory and I am not sure.

how

What if the goals of ones meditation is goalessness?
What's to meet? Dam that sticky zen!

I don't think what your teacher says is contradictory at all. Different meditations yield different results but that doesn't make one right and the another wrong.

Beej

@how- reminds me of a circular koan-ish question- "If one sets out to fail and succeeds, what did one really do?" I'll be busy sidestepping that goalesness question all night!

how

Just another Rinzai circling a Soto flock in sheeps clothing. Sleep tight!

DairyLama

However she also says that you should evaluate your goals in meditation and measure if they are met. And perhaps ask for a different method.

I think that's good advice. There are many different approaches to meditation and they are "designed" with different goals in mind - including the goal of goalessness.:p
So IMO clarity is important.

andyrobyn

@how- reminds me of a circular koan-ish question- "If one sets out to fail and succeeds, what did one really do?" I'll be busy sidestepping that goalesness question all night!

Well, clearly you failed, especially in setting the goal ! Sorry, forever the pragmatic TB practitioner answering here! Lol

DairyLama

Just another Rinzai circling a Soto flock in sheeps clothing. Sleep tight!

:hair:

KarunaDharmakaya

Check out the Mahaparinirvana sutra concerning the True self,peace and love