kindness

genkaku

I don't know about you, but I prefer kindness.

And it is in that regard that I wonder: Is there anything more egotistical or unkind than elevating the teachers or teachings we have the good fortune to encounter?

I'm not sure.

person

I've heard you talk about this before but I don't really get it. To me Buddhadharma is better/higher than say hedonism or Satanism or what have you and its kind to help others understand the essence of the teachings.

You practice Buddhism so it would seem that you find it valuable, so what do you mean by elevating it?

genkaku

so what do you mean by elevating it?

@person -- A fair question, fairly asked. And if I am honest I would have to say it is simply a very strong gut instinct. Which, in itself, is not a creditable answer.

More wobbly still, perhaps what I mean by "elevation" is the woo-hoo's: Woo-hoo Gautama Buddha; woo-hoo the Four Noble Truths; woo-hoo compassion; woo-hoo enlightenment; woo-hoo The Eightfold Path; woo-hoo the Dalai Lama; woo-hoo emptiness ... and woo-hoo whatever all else anyone might hold at a distance as if it might be known but not yet attained.

Perhaps the woo-hoos form a basis for initial effort -- an inspiration and encouragement for practice. Belief and hope ... woo-hoo. But practice teaches from experience, so maybe one of the good aspects of practice is that it sets aside the woo-hoo factor. We all have teachers and teachings that are friends, but friends don't rely on woo-hoo's for friendship. They are simply friends. Were there some woo-hoo involved, I suspect that it might ruin a perfectly good friendship.

Sorry ... not much of a response, but it's what I can muster.

David

To worship Buddha is to miss the Buddha?

Ficus_religiosa

You mean "we" get all worked up over Buddhism and that it's egoistical/unkind?

I'm not entirely sure what you're aiming at either..

genkaku

Ficus_religiosa -- Maybe it's like throwing a box of thumb tacks on the road in order to assure a better bike ride.

Or maybe I don't really know what I'm talking about either.

how

@genkaku

Kindness is an unusual way of looking at this but accurate none the less

The Ego aspect of elevating teachers and teaching is sometimes called using greed positively. It is what brought most of us towards a practise before we started actualizing that practise.

Continuing to separate oneself from teachers and teachings beyond the entry stages of a practise by elevating them is a hindrance like any attachment. Teachers that don't actively discourage such clinging are just as ego bound as the students who fawn over them. Students that elevate teachings beyond there own ability to practise them are just substituting one form of identity for a preferred one dressed in spiritual camouflage.

While I think this understanding is a basic foundation of a meditation practise for most, folks with faith/devotional leanings must usually rely on their teacher to push them beyond this difficulty.?

Vastmind

Uh oh, there you go again! First virtue had to raise my red flag,
now, feeling and showing gratitude for someone passing on the
teachings, should raise my red flag. You are killing me here!, lololololol
I do see what you are saying in the woo-hoo's, so maybe, are we talking
about a quality vs. quanity of the woo-hoo's??

The friendship analogy You used confused me, because, in order to be
friends it has to be give and take, no? It is my understanding,
that I should practice way more giving than taking, but in order
for another to be beneficial to my path, I'm going to need
something in return. Im sure alot of your buddies that slapped your
behind, high-fived you, or chest bumped you, were in fact, woo-hooing
you...?? I thought thats how guy friends bonded.

I view the teacher relationship and/or elevation of teachings, somewhat
different than a friendship.

genkaku

@vastminds -- My take: The teacher teaches the student; the student teaches the teacher ... all the time ... no gaps or separations. Then everyone goes home happy.

Sile

If elevation means studying from someone who has experience, then I'm all for it! As a lifelong learner, I find learning from brilliant teachers one of the most satisfying pursuits life has to offer. Over time I have also had the joy of passing on skills which I myself had acquired; one of life's other most satisfying pursuits! There's nothing like that moment when, after studying a tricky problem, you suddenly "get it," or see the look on your student's face when they suddenly get it. It is precious.

Cloud

I do think we have the tendency to elevate; we certainly seem to have elevated Siddhartha Gautama in many cases to being (or seeming like) more than just a man. This seems silly, since we're aiming to be just like him... which is more easily the case when we see him as no different than us. He did say the enlightenment of what he called an arahant (worthy one) was no different than his own, and I'd expect that he would know! When we elevate "Lord Buddha" beyond being just like us, we only make it harder on ourselves. The same is true of Jesus. If we see this same potential for love within us, that we can realize the same heart, it hits closer to home.

Sile

genkaku said:

I don't know about you, but I prefer kindness.

And it is in that regard that I wonder: Is there anything more egotistical or unkind than elevating the teachers or teachings we have the good fortune to encounter?

I'm not sure.

I guess I see my teacher as having more patience and kindness than I (he does!) So I equate his position with greater kindness, which, as he has demonstrated it is possible, I hope to achieve myself. You could think of it more linearly if it's better--someone being further down the path, maybe, instead of further up the mountain? "Height" is a contrivance. There are multiple ways to picture skill.

zenff

One teacher I met (and I don’t elevate at all) used to say that the people in the gym where he worked out were so kind and thoughtful, compared to us practicing Buddhists in the zendo.

He was probably just playing games with our feelings of spiritual superiority, but I think he could have a point.

When we are just being kind; when our kindness is raw; coming straight from who we are; I suppose it feels a lot better than when our kindness is covered with notions of creating good karma, attaining enlightenment, or pleasing God and being rewarded in the next life.

In the same way our respect for the teacher is more precious when there is no artificial layer on top of it; no charade of servility and adulation. (Google translated that last bit for me).

And also our Buddhism is an artificial layer we should be able to shake off at some point; when we see that what we are- the raw thing – is really good enough and better even than any teaching we have heard.

This is from Lao Tzu:

Therefore, when the Way is lost there is virtue.
When virtue is lost there is benevolence.
When benevolence is lost there is righteousness.
When righteousness is lost there are rituals.
Rituals are the end of fidelity and honesty,
And the beginning of confusion.