Just an observation...not a criticism

vinlyn

I've sort of come to the conclusion that "we" (and I include myself) are not very open-minded here...in the sense that most of "us" (and I include myself) state our positions on various threads and stick to them. Rarely do "we" (and I include myself) express any change in positions after we read the posts of others. And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Again, not a criticism...just an observation (and I include myself).

OneLifeForm

I have noticed similarly.

We can be pretty damned self righteous.

I think that a number of Buddhists (sub)consciously think they have "transcended" ego. That is frightening.

Ignorance is blindness. It is not easy to be aware of when one is acting out of such ways.

We all are where we are.

I cannot liberate you. I can barely take care of me.

The most important thing for you to know though is..

I'm right, you're wrong.
heheheheheheheh

Just kidding

upekka

isn't it enough to know 'how much i have changed'
do we (i) need to know 'how much others have changed'?

OneLifeForm

upekka said:

isn't it enough to know 'how much i have changed'
do we (i) need to know 'how much others have changed'?

For myself as an ordinary being.. I can barely see anything.

So when it comes to speculation on whether or not someone else has changed that is what it would be.. speculation.

I've seen that I have changed a lot over the past few years for the better. That is a beautiful thing.

When I let go of resentment and other trash like that my relationships with the people I harbored hatred for improves dramatically to the point where it seems like they had a radical (+) transformation but truly it is just my perception of it changing.

Did they actually change? I don't know.

Do we get along a hell of a lot better. Yes.

B5C

My position change only when there is evidence to show my position is wrong and I NEED to change it.

Telly03

Beliefs come mostly from experience, which is much more believable than perceptions of others... I guess that makes us predictable, but just because we are predictable, doesn't mean we are not shaped by the sharing of opinions... Even if I'm not swayed in an exchange of ideas, the seed is planted and may give me a new view to consider in future experiences, beyond someone's evaluation of my open-mindedness.

federica

B5C said:

My position change only when there is evidence to show my position is wrong and I NEED to change it.

My position changes because I know that there is probably much evidence to show my position is wrong, and I EXPECT to change it at any given moment during a day.

Hell, sometimes I change my position three or 4 times a day.

and even then, it doesn't make me 'right' and others 'wrong'.

Beej

Yup. We're un-enlightened. Shame on us.

Bunks

federica said:

B5C said:

My position change only when there is evidence to show my position is wrong and I NEED to change it.

My position changes because I know that there is probably much evidence to show my position is wrong, and I EXPECT to change it at any given moment during a day.

Hell, sometimes I change my position three or 4 times a day.

and even then, it doesn't make me 'right' and others 'wrong'.

Ditto federica! I used to think it was a sign of weakness but have now realised it's a strength.

Telly03

@Federica I've heard that before "it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind"

Jason

vinlyn said:

I've sort of come to the conclusion that "we" (and I include myself) are not very open-minded here...in the sense that most of "us" (and I include myself) state our positions on various threads and stick to them. Rarely do "we" (and I include myself) express any change in positions after we read the posts of others. And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Again, not a criticism...just an observation (and I include myself).

I don't think that's necessarily true. Just because we don't always agree on everything or change our positions regularly doesn't mean we're a closed-minded bunch. I think most of us are capable of appreciating opposing viewpoints even if we ultimately see things differently. And change of that nature (i.e., of opinions) often takes time. Today I may think I'm totally on the right track about something, but tomorrow I may think a little differently after reflecting on conversations I've had here. One personal example is that my ideas about anatta have evolved over time, particularly due to discussions I've had with members like @Bobby_Lanier, who I had some great debates with. It took years for me to go from being adamantly in the 'no self' camp (saying 'I have no self') to viewing the teachings on not-self as a method for deconstructing our false perceptions about selfhood in relation to the five aggregates (a subtle yet important distinction, in my opinion).

seeker242

I think that is partly true but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, it depends on the issue. For an extreme example to illustrate the point, if you are adamantly opposed to the killing other living beings, and you will not waver any from that position at all, I don't think that is necessarily indicative of a closed mind.

Dakini

Jason said:

vinlyn said:

I've sort of come to the conclusion that "we" (and I include myself) are not very open-minded here...in the sense that most of "us" (and I include myself) state our positions on various threads and stick to them. Rarely do "we" (and I include myself) express any change in positions after we read the posts of others. And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Again, not a criticism...just an observation (and I include myself).

I don't think that's necessarily true. Just because we don't always agree on everything or change our positions regularly doesn't mean we're a closed-minded bunch. I think most of us are capable of appreciating opposing viewpoints even if we ultimately see things differently. And change of that nature (i.e., of opinions) often takes time. Today I may think I'm totally on the right track about something, but tomorrow I may think a little differently after reflecting on conversations I've had here. One personal example is that my ideas about anatta have evolved over time, particularly due to discussions I've had with members like @Bobby_Lanier, who I had some great debates with.

I agree. When it comes to Buddhism, there's a lot to learn here. It's not always about opinions, it's about learning new things. Sometimes it's about seeing both sides (or more ) of a complex argument, or forming an opinion where none had existed before, based on new information. Now when it comes to a discussion about worldly politics, the news, etc. then people can get fired up! But we haven't had many of those for awhile.

Besides, it seems hard to discuss "us", when the composition of who "us" is changes so much from week to week and month to month. I can't help noticing the sudden influx of quite a few new members--welcome, all!

Jason

Dakini said:

Jason said:

vinlyn said:

I've sort of come to the conclusion that "we" (and I include myself) are not very open-minded here...in the sense that most of "us" (and I include myself) state our positions on various threads and stick to them. Rarely do "we" (and I include myself) express any change in positions after we read the posts of others. And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Again, not a criticism...just an observation (and I include myself).

I don't think that's necessarily true. Just because we don't always agree on everything or change our positions regularly doesn't mean we're a closed-minded bunch. I think most of us are capable of appreciating opposing viewpoints even if we ultimately see things differently. And change of that nature (i.e., of opinions) often takes time. Today I may think I'm totally on the right track about something, but tomorrow I may think a little differently after reflecting on conversations I've had here. One personal example is that my ideas about anatta have evolved over time, particularly due to discussions I've had with members like @Bobby_Lanier, who I had some great debates with.

I agree. When it comes to Buddhism, there's a lot to learn here. It's not always about opinions, it's about learning new things. Sometimes it's about seeing both sides (or more ) of a complex argument, or forming an opinion where none had existed before, based on new information. Now when it comes to a discussion about worldly politics, the news, etc. then people can get fired up! But we haven't had many of those for awhile.

I think the same is true even then. I know I generally try to treat discussions about politics the same as I do discussions about Buddhist-related topics, at least. I usually come in with my own opinions and viewpoints and do my best to argue/explain why I see things a particular way. And like most people, I think, I've usually thought a lot about things beforehand so my opinions aren't necessarily easily changed. Many of them do certainly change, but it's usually through a process of prolonged discussion and repeated reflection that they do. Rarely does it happen overnight.

And just for reference, it not just Buddhist-related subjects I've changed my mind about. My views about things like abortion, feminism, and Marxism have changed a great deal over the years, as well. I started out being fairly critical of all three, but have since found myself transformed into a vocal supporter of a woman's right to choose, a feminist, and a relatively avid reader of Marx due in no small part to my interactions with others.

RebeccaS

I'm pretty firm in my views, but they've changed so dramatically over the years it seems unlikely that the things I believe now will be the the same things I'll believe in the future. I think it's just part of the maturation process. Sometimes someone's argument will show that what I think is total nonsense, and I'll adjust my viewpoint, sometimes, like others said, it might take a while.

The biggest thing for me to remember is that there are people out there much wiser than me, and I'd do well to pay attention to them. And if I don't... Well, I assume I'll just grow out of it.

AMH

Hmm I would agree, however for me personally it is a good thing. i have been the 'agree-er' and 'accomodator' in my life so it is interesting and nice to stick to an opinion and not care as much about what others think. I still look at if it needs to be said and how I am saying it, but I do not question myself every time another person has another opinion or understanding.

But yeah, often discussions are about people stating their POV, then agreeing or disagreeing to some extent, a great understanding of another POV may come of it but if people are actually changing then they are not sharing it.

Sabre

That's because exchanges on a discussion board can't really change a person's view on a fundamental level, at least not on most of the topics we are discussion. We have to get our own experiences through practice of the path, which takes a lot of time. One can't expect to change another persons view within a few days. We all probably know the Kalama sutta where the Buddha said pondering views is not the way to go, but we really have to get our own experience.

So why are we trying to help eachother anyway? To plant some seeds that may (or may not) grow in the future, at least that's my intention a lot of the time.

That having said, I also have seen occasions where people are changing their views in a thread, so let us be careful not to over-generalize.

Also I agree with what Jason said about 'open mindned' being not about agreeing with views, but about allowing other views to be shared.

zenff

I like the idea of “Memes”. Our opinions are like viruses. They infect our brain and use it as a copy-machine. It’s an evolutionary process; copying, changing, getting eliminated by circumstances, leads to progress in design.

What you describe is the tendency of meme’s to copy without changing. That’s why they are here in the first place. If a meme doesn’t have any solidity it won’t develop into a meme at all. It’s just gone before we know it. Religious memes are tough. They last for centuries. But that doesn’t say they don’t adapt. An Evangelical American Christian is different from of a medieval Spaniard when it comes to faith. One would want to burn the other on the stake maybe. But I wouldn’t call either one of them open-minded.

The point? I ‘m not sure.
Maybe what I’m trying to say is that opinions are just opinions. They change in time, but not so fast. And we are meme-copying machines.
We don’t have opinions, opinions have us.

Ficus_religiosa

You guys have changed my way of debating and my way of thinking - for the better. So, there you got it. What we do here really matters

karasti

I've changed my opinions on a lot of things based on what I've read here. My views adjust and change pretty regularly thought there are some I hold onto. But to me it's not being closed-minded. Being open-minded doesn't mean having someone make a good argument and changing your view. It means being open to the idea that others share different views, and listening to their views, understanding them, and gaining a better understanding of people in general. I may fully disagree with someone, but I can still understand, and respect their point of view. Even in cases where I feel their view is just plain wrong (say, discrimination) I do understand to a degree how they came to hold those views (when the opportunity is there to gain that understanding). Just because I make a good argument doesn't mean they are going to change their mind, or vice versa. But it also doesn't necessarily make either of us closed-minded.

There was a great series on tv, that used to be on Netflix, called "30 days" that was with Morgan Spurlock. People from very opposing view points were put to live the opposite lifestyle for a month and report on their reactions and how it changed them. There were a lot of great topics, and some very interesting changes that happened (and didn't happen).

Lastly, it seems to me that because we identify as Buddhists (or Buddhists in training, or just interested in Buddhism) that we think we should be better than other people at managing all of this stuff. We are the same as everyone else, using a different path to try to gain understanding. Labeling ourselves as closed-minded because we aren't getting it better, or faster than other groups doesn't make much sense to me.

taiyaki

Each individual is a new expression of dharma.

They share from their experience and then filter that via words, symbols.

Add intention, cultural and social conditioning, long history, etc and bam you got an internet forum poster.

In a way I am glad people are closed minded. If everyone was open minded we'd all think alike, have the same views, and the world would be one dimensional.

This isn't black and white of course. We need open mindedness as well. A delicate balance!

DairyLama

And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Well , maybe we should be a bit more unpredictable...

BonsaiDoug

We are all definitely attached to our "I"

ThePensum

vinlyn said:

I've sort of come to the conclusion that "we" (and I include myself) are not very open-minded here...in the sense that most of "us" (and I include myself) state our positions on various threads and stick to them. Rarely do "we" (and I include myself) express any change in positions after we read the posts of others. And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Again, not a criticism...just an observation (and I include myself).

I disagree and I'm not going to change my mind.

driedleaf

Good observation, and I agree. I am not sure how important it is to hold a position on something if one's goal is enlightenment. It does make sense that once a position is held, there are many views developed from that.

"Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

"The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'...

"...'the cosmos is finite'...

"...'the cosmos is infinite'...

"...'the soul & the body are the same'...

"...'the soul is one thing and the body another'...

"...'after death a Tathagata exists'...

"...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'...

"...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'...

"...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'... does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding."

"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.072.than.html

zombiegirl

vinlyn said:

I've sort of come to the conclusion that "we" (and I include myself) are not very open-minded here...in the sense that most of "us" (and I include myself) state our positions on various threads and stick to them. Rarely do "we" (and I include myself) express any change in positions after we read the posts of others. And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Again, not a criticism...just an observation (and I include myself).

What's even worse is that when proven wrong beyond a shadow of doubt... I'm actually miffed about it. Really, I should probably be saying, "thank you" ...

poptart

One thing I have noticed about the internet generally is it seems to foster entrenched attitudes. Go on any forum or comments page and you will find strangers arguing about very little. Perhaps it is the anonymity which makes people so defensive.

LostLight

That's a pretty astute observation. Even on such an open minded site, such a thing still exists. It's not a bad thing persay, but it's something we should be consciously aware of. Ironically, I joined this site and participate in discussions for the sole purpose of changing or improving my stances and myself; if I should stray from the path please place me back.

ThailandTom

I post this after read @vinlyn OP and nothing else. I would suggest that we act in this manner due to our ego, we are not full awoken beings here, we all still have egos to a certain extent that we cling to. I was contemplating something similar not long ago that was was based around the fact that no matter what anyone else may say in response to your opinion, often people will stick to their opinion even when given data etc, this is becaus ethey cling to their ego. That is just how it is my friend, pure avidya!

DairyLama

@poptart

poptart said:

One thing I have noticed about the internet generally is it seems to foster entrenched attitudes. Go on any forum or comments page and you will find strangers arguing about very little. Perhaps it is the anonymity which makes people so defensive.

I can't help but disagree. Or at least to suggest another possibility.
Mabye the anonymity gives people permission to say what they really think. Maybe people who join these discussions really want to explore ideas. Maybe they are more open to having their attitudes challenged

poptart

PedanticPorpoise said:

@poptart

poptart said:

One thing I have noticed about the internet generally is it seems to foster entrenched attitudes. Go on any forum or comments page and you will find strangers arguing about very little. Perhaps it is the anonymity which makes people so defensive.

I can't help but disagree. Or at least to suggest another possibility.
Mabye the anonymity gives people permission to say what they really think. Maybe people who join these discussions really want to explore ideas. Maybe they are more open to having their attitudes challenged

Good point. Some are looking for answers, but the trouble is the ego can hijack the experience and shut down one's openness to new ideas. It's easy to perceive an opposite view point as a threat.

Much of what passes for internet discussion is really ego posturing. "I know more than you" or "I'm right and you're wrong". The ego needs conflict to define itself and it must win at all costs. Giving up feels like humiliation, even death. In a way it is a death, the death of the ego.

andyrobyn

zombiegirl said:

vinlyn said:

I've sort of come to the conclusion that "we" (and I include myself) are not very open-minded here...in the sense that most of "us" (and I include myself) state our positions on various threads and stick to them. Rarely do "we" (and I include myself) express any change in positions after we read the posts of others. And most of "us" (and I include myself) are quite predictable in our positions as threads evolve.

Again, not a criticism...just an observation (and I include myself).

What's even worse is that when proven wrong beyond a shadow of doubt... I'm actually miffed about it. Really, I should probably be saying, "thank you" ...

I guess I am getting better at not taking things too seriously as I observe that I can not relate to these experiences - my checking into online discussions is for enjoyment and discussion with others,

DairyLama

Much of what passes for internet discussion is really ego posturing. "I know more than you" or "I'm right and you're wrong".

Perhaps, but IMO real life is often like that too.

Patr

Cant agree more on your observation.

There seems to be a lot of unintelligible gibberish as well, forumners quoting directly from wherever and passing it off as their 'own'. Sigh!!

Oh, another highly enlightened being sprouting highly advanced Buddhist theorems....Sigh again!

hahaha
Cheers