An interesting BBC program about near death experience.

hermitwin

Sile

Fantastic piece. The story on Pam (at about 22:22) is just astounding.

Reminds me of this, from the great female practitioner Mayum Kunsang Dechen:

"The moment this trap of my material body falls apart, I will fly off like a bird escaping from a snare."

music

I couldn't watch, but how is this different from other nde experiences, which are explained away with usual logic. What's unique about these specific experiences?

jll

good to know that death is not unpleasant.

Sile

music said:

I couldn't watch, but how is this different from other nde experiences, which are explained away with usual logic. What's unique about these specific experiences?

In the case of Pam, she was undergoing a specific surgical procedure which involved stopping so many of her body's and brain's processes that, according to even skeptical surgeons, it should have been physically impossible for her to experience, see, and remember anything.

In other cases, the patient's brain was still functioning, so even though the patient woke up reporting things from an operation, the memories could be written off as a highly-coincidental dream of some sort.

One thing I found particularly interesting was her description of some of the specific surgical devices used during her operation, which were not visible to her either before or after the surgery.

The doctors' description of all this is far more intriguing than mine...

genkaku

Aside from the music and the imaginative video images, I thought it had some interesting bits.

tmottes

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:

Songhill

Music:

I couldn't watch, but how is this different from other nde experiences, which are explained away with usual logic. What's unique about these specific experiences?

Just curious. What logic is that? Logical Positivism?

person

The Pam Reynolds case I think is the strongest case so far for consciousness surviving brain death. Also convincing for me are the cases where people born blind can see.

Dr. Sam Parnia in the video has wrapped up a 3 year study into NDE and has a book coming out in February 2013, The Lazerus Effect. There should be some more answers into what is happening here in that book.

music

Sile said:

music said:

I couldn't watch, but how is this different from other nde experiences, which are explained away with usual logic. What's unique about these specific experiences?

In the case of Pam, she was undergoing a specific surgical procedure which involved stopping so many of her body's and brain's processes that, according to even skeptical surgeons, it should have been physically impossible for her to experience, see, and remember anything.

In other cases, the patient's brain was still functioning, so even though the patient woke up reporting things from an operation, the memories could be written off as a highly-coincidental dream of some sort.

One thing I found particularly interesting was her description of some of the specific surgical devices used during her operation, which were not visible to her either before or after the surgery.

The doctors' description of all this is far more intriguing than mine...

Is there another side to this story, some sort of refutation ... cuz the recent case of the neurosurgeon was also thought to be convicting until skeptics demystified it. Just wondering, that's all.

person

Here's a clear article on the Pam Reynolds case with lots of good debunking in the comments section.

http://www.thewarfareismental.net/b/2011/03/30/amp-5/

Cinorjer

A better analysis of the famous Pam Reynolds case is at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html

you have to scroll down about halfway.

Unfortunately, the reports you get on shows like the BBC stretch the actual facts and completely fail to inform the audience of mundane, common sense explanations. The link above gives you a detailed explanation of why Pam's case falls apart when examined closely. All these cases of NDE as well as the "boy remembering a past life" type of story fall apart when the actual facts are measured against the embellished story.

Geoff-Allen

Great post!

There's a great website on NDE -

http://near-death.com/experiences/buddhism02.html

vinlyn

Keep an open mind.
If you wanna know why, Google "debunking Buddhism".

Songhill

Cinorjer:

Unfortunately, the reports you get on shows like the BBC stretch the actual facts and completely fail to inform the audience of mundane, common sense explanations. The link above gives you a detailed explanation of why Pam's case falls apart when examined closely. All these cases of NDE as well as the "boy remembering a past life" type of story fall apart when the actual facts are measured against the embellished story.

I wouldn't call anything that Keith Augustine has produced to be serious academic work. For one thing you can't make claims and then cite your own work as proof.

Augustine raising doubts about NDEs is not proof that having an open mind towards NDEs is irrational. If Mr. Augustine hasn't read serious academic works like Irreducible Mind which covers such subjects like NDEs and mystical experiences, he not up to date. But then I suspect that he has never read, cover to cover, the basic works of Dr. Raymond Moody, Dr. Kenneth Ring, and other important researchers.

Here is an educated skeptic turned NDE researcher, unlike Keith Augustine. Note his references to the Dalai Lama.



"[Dr. Peter] Fenwick's interest in near-death experiences was piqued when he read Raymond Moody's book Life After Life. Initially skeptical of Moody's anecdotal evidence, Fenwick reassessed his opinion after a discussion with one of his own patients, who described a near-death experience very similar to that of Moody's subjects. Since then, he has collected and analysed more than 300 examples of near-death experiences...."

"Dr Peter Fenwick is a neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist who is known for his studies of epilepsy and end-of-life phenomena. He is recognised as an authority on the relationship between the mind and the brain" (Wikipedia).

Bunks

vinlyn said:

Keep an open mind.
If you wanna know why, Google "debunking Buddhism".

I did but it didn't really suggest anything I hadn't questioned myself?

sova

jll said:

good to know that death is not unpleasant.

don't hurt one bit


I am enjoying some of the ideas presented in this video, but I was kinda disturbed by the one researcher's takeaways. She mentioned something awesome, like "there's no 'me' in here" [pointing to the head/brain] and she explained that that was just conceptual overlay. I was like Yeah Truth! But then she said she could explain the whole dying process neurochemically / as if "neurons" in itself wasn't a conceptual overlay and I was like nuu you drove too far whyyy lol

Anyway, cool to know there's research being done. But, on a funnier note, it's been a while since I remembered how dry science can make even the most fascinating of experiences. When the chart came up "47% experienced deep peace" or whatever I kinda wanted to barf

Songhill

Dr. Pim van Lommel, a renowned cardiologist, is the first medical practitioner to have undertaken a full, systematic study of near-death experiences (NDEs). As a cardiologist, he was struck by the number of his patients who claimed to have near-death experiences as a result of their heart attacks. As a scientist, this was difficult for him to accept: Wouldn't it be scientifically irresponsible of him to ignore the evidence of these stories? Faced with this dilemma, van Lommel decided to design a research study to investigate the phenomenon under the controlled environment of a cluster of hospitals with a medically trained staff. For more than twenty years van Lommel systematically studied such near-death experiences in a wide variety of hospital patients who survived a cardiac arrest. In 2001, he and his fellow researchers published his study on near-death experiences in the renowned medical journal The Lancet. The article caused an international sensation as it was the first scientifically rigorous study of this phenomenon. Now available for the first time in English, van Lommel offers an in-depth presentation of his results and theories in this book that has already sold over 125,000 copies in Europe. To continue, click here http://www.pimvanlommel.nl/?Endless_consciousness

It is important to note that PVL's studies are prospective — not retrospective. This is an important milestone in NDE research.

"In four prospective studies with a total of 562 survivors of cardiac arrest between 11% and 18% of the patients reported a near-death experience, and in these studies it could not be shown that physiological, psychological, pharmacological or demographic factors could explain the cause and content of these experiences" (ibid).