Teenage trials

lillymac61

Do any members have wise words for dealing with ornery teenagers? I have a 13 year old daughter who stings me with her Scorpion tail almost daily! I strive to be the rock, not the sea... remain patient, compassionate and not engage in the tirade but I find it difficult not to be upset by her cutting words sometimes. I've read many books and realise at her age hormonal surges are of tsunamic proportions, the pre-frontal lobe is underdeveloped, which explains a lot :-) and that I can't really expect her to be rational in the way an adult is. I'm relatively new to Buddhism so probably have a way to go before I effectively apply what I am learning with consistency. Thoughts anyone?

footiam

Sometimes, we can't just take hormones as the reason for a teenager's misbehavior. Perhaps, the mind ought to be trained from an early age.

lillymac61

footiam said:

Sometimes, we can't just take hormones as the reason for a teenager's misbehavior. Perhaps, the mind ought to be trained from an early age.

@footiam and perhaps the milk is spilt and I'm trying to clean it up

Silouan

There are a lot of stimuli dividing a child's attention, and that's why we need to set boundaries so they have stability, but we can't be too strict or too easy going.

It is difficult, but we really need to be the port in the heavy storm whether that requires firmness or gentleness.

They are going through a lot, and we are going through a lot. We will lose our temper and get caught up in it too from time to time, but that's okay. Recognize that and admit it to your child when it happens, and ask for their forgiveness.

We need to return to the calm provided by our spiritual practice as much as possible, and if we are consistent then it will not only help us, but eventually spread to those around us too.

It will take time, but it will pass.

how

I have a 21 year old daughter who's exploration of life fills me with awe. but I am afraid that for me, after 39 years of buddhist practise, I have no reliable parental advise beyond consistantly applying your meditative experience to your parenting.
I think parenting will usually always be one of lifes most powerful lessons on change and how little control we really have on the chaos around us and how often it comes back to just being about our relationship to it all.

fivebells

I have no kids and so may not know what I'm talking about, but the first thing I would try is consistently telling her when she's hurting you, respectfully and without rancor or disapproval.

karasti

I have boys, and so far, boys are vastly different from the girls my friends parent. She is trying to find her place in the world, and struggling with a lot of things that even us young parents cannot understand compared to our growing up years. She mostly needs to know that despite her rough and tough exterior and talk, she has you as a safe place to fall and be supported. On the plus side, she acts out against you because she feels comfortable doing so, she knows she will be loved unconditionally. My son is almost 16, and he is definitely the smartest human being on the planet, if you ask him, lol.

One thing I would recommend, is to pick up a copy of "Reviving Ophelia: Saving the selves of adolescent girls." I think the author is Mary Pheiffer. Something like that, but I know the title is correct. My mom gave it to me when I was 19 or 20, and I remember thinking it would have had an impact on me had I read it several years earlier. I would read it as a parent, first, before you determine if it's appropriate for her. I'd recommend it to all young women and their parents.

All you can do is love her and provide her a safe place. Getting angry only adds fuel to their fire and gives them reason to be spiteful. When mine is lippy, I make sure to point out that his words hurt me and that I'm disappointed that he'd treat me, or any other person that way. I leave it at that, and sometimes he comes back to say something, sometimes not. I just leave him with his thoughts on the matter.

When I was a teenager, I was a screamer. I slammed doors, punched walls, told my parents I hated them, the whole 9 yards. I don't know how my poor mother survived, but she did, and we are very close now. I remember having those outburst moments, and it's not unlike having severe PMS. You don't like how you feel and feel like you have little control over your thoughts and your mind. If she is at all open, it would probably be quite helpful to her to develop a meditation practice. Perhaps where you live, they have youth programs for such a thing?

lillymac61

how said:

I have a 21 year old daughter who's exploration of life fills me with awe. but I am afraid that for me, after 39 years of buddhist practise, I have no reliable parental advise beyond consistantly applying your meditative experience to your parenting.
I think parenting will usually always be one of lifes most powerful lessons on change and how little control we really have on the chaos around us and how often it comes back to just being about our relationship to it all.

@how, ah yes, parenting definitely is one of life's most powerful lessons, I have contemplated that at different times. Before I went to sleep last night I resolved to include loving kindness practice directed at my daughter in my morning meditation. It's moments like these, when my shoulders slump, that I'm grateful for being reminded that everything I need is within me and within my power to set in motion.

lillymac61

Silouan said:

There are a lot of stimuli dividing a child's attention, and that's why we need to set boundaries so they have stability, but we can't be too strict or too easy going.

It is difficult, but we really need to be the port in the heavy storm whether that requires firmness or gentleness.

They are going through a lot, and we are going through a lot. We will lose our temper and get caught up in it too from time to time, but that's okay. Recognize that and admit it to your child when it happens, and ask for their forgiveness.

We need to return to the calm provided by our spiritual practice as much as possible, and if we are consistent then it will not only help us, but eventually spread to those around us too.

It will take time, but it will pass.

@Silouan, achieving the balance you describe has always been a tricky one and I try to be mindful of the dregs of my own childhood I'm bringing to parenting. And yes, we need to return to the calm. Thank you for your kind and wise words.

Bunks

Good luck @lillymac61. I can't provide too much advice as my little girl is only 2 so I probably have all that to look forward too

Anyway, as someone else mentioned earlier, just be sure to let her know how her words and actions make you feel.

All the best......

lillymac61

Thanks @Bunks. A fortunate young girl indeed, growing up with a Buddhist dad :-)

lillymac61

fivebells said:

I have no kids and so may not know what I'm talking about, but the first thing I would try is consistently telling her when she's hurting you, respectfully and without rancor or disapproval.

Thanks @fivebells, I do not do this often enough.

lillymac61

karasti said:

All you can do is love her and provide her a safe place. Getting angry only adds fuel to their fire and gives them reason to be spiteful. When mine is lippy, I make sure to point out that his words hurt me and that I'm disappointed that he'd treat me, or any other person that way. I leave it at that, and sometimes he comes back to say something, sometimes not. I just leave him with his thoughts on the matter.

Hi @Karasti, the maddening thing about parenting is when you look at it, it is so much common sense and not much else. I see clearly the good sense approach but I'm a great forgetter, my own stuff rises up to join in the conflict. ;-) Thanks for your post. It's been heartening and helpful.

Dakini

lillymac61 said:

Do any members have wise words for dealing with ornery teenagers? I have a 13 year old daughter who stings me with her Scorpion tail almost daily! I strive to be the rock, not the sea... remain patient, compassionate and not engage in the tirade but I find it difficult not to be upset by her cutting words sometimes. I've read many books and realise at her age hormonal surges are of tsunamic proportions, the pre-frontal lobe is underdeveloped, which explains a lot :-) and that I can't really expect her to be rational in the way an adult is. I'm relatively new to Buddhism so probably have a way to go before I effectively apply what I am learning with consistency. Thoughts anyone?

When I and my friends and relatives were 13, we didn't speak this way to our parents. "Hormones" sounds like an excuse.
Why are you allowing this kind of behavior? Has this child been given no boundaries? Has she perhaps learned that mom is a doormat? Just wondering.

karasti

I see what you are saying, Dakini, but at the same time, children are maturing much faster now than they used to. Their bodies are developing hormonally faster than their emotional maturity allows them to understand and control. While the average age for a girls period was 12-13 when I was a kid only 20 years ago, the average age is changing in a lot of the western world to 10-11. At that age they are very much still children, forced to deal with adult types of issues with a brain that cannot keep up. I don't know if the same is true of boys, or not, but I have read quite a few articles noting the trend in girls. Also, with boys, by the time they start to experience the hormonal surges, they are typically older and more mature to deal with them in a better manner.

Jeffrey

With boys comes dangerous behaviour because they don't have a normal fear. Also boys cannot judge speeds of cars as easily and can increase car accidents.

On topic it's ok to be upset. Let there be space for you to have feelings. Express how you feel but don't try to get anything. Just my 'sage' (not) advice with a grain of salt.

footiam

footiam said:

Sometimes, we can't just take hormones as the reason for a teenager's misbehavior. Perhaps, the mind ought to be trained from an early age.

At least, there is still an effort to clean up spilt milk. Sometimes, I for one, would just blame everything on God.

zombiegirl

I'm not a parent, so I can't really advise you on that... but, once upon a time, I was a teenage girl.

Just wanted to say that I remember very vividly being a horrible hormonal mess screaming and slamming my door over ridiculous things. I love my mother very much, I always did, and even at 27... I still feel like I'm making it up to her, lol.

So just remember that, somewhere beneath the waves, your loving daughter still exists and one day the storm will pass. But in the meantime, always express your love and support for her. Even being an awful teenager, the worst thing for me was always when I knew my mother was disappointed in me.

karasti

I was thinking of my stepsister today. We aren't close, my mom married her dad when I was over 30 years old. She is now 22. Anyhow, she and her dad are always at odds. She was a pretty typical teenage girl and is now a typical college student (she is in grad school). Anyhow, her dad can't let go of her brattiness as a teenager even though she is out of it as an adult. Because he cannot forgive and move on, neither can she and they are always locking horns on every topic, and she leaves in tears every time she visits him. As a result, she only visits on holidays despite coming to our town at least once a month.

My point in thinking about them, and I think applies to anyone dealing with difficult times with their kids no matter the reason, is sometimes the most you can do is love them through it and make sure they know they are supported. Because eventually, the rough stuff will pass, the kid will grow up and even start a family, and they will appreciate their parents (generally speaking here) much more...but only if there is something worth coming back to. Sometimes when kids are horribly unruly, they still need to know they have a soft and safe place to land, no matter where they are in life. And if you want a relationship with your kid later in life, and your grand kids even later, you have to be the adult and maintain that relationship even if the kid isn't really in it. Not saying anyone is doing the opposite, just an observation based on the relationship I observe. Ashley (stepsister) is going to eventually abandon her dad and move far away, because she has no safe place, no support from her dad because he's holding grudges from her teenage years, and as she goes through life, the problems will persist.

lillymac61

zombiegirl said:

I'm not a parent, so I can't really advise you on that... but, once upon a time, I was a teenage girl.

Just wanted to say that I remember very vividly being a horrible hormonal mess screaming and slamming my door over ridiculous things. I love my mother very much, I always did, and even at 27... I still feel like I'm making it up to her, lol.

So just remember that, somewhere beneath the waves, your loving daughter still exists and one day the storm will pass. But in the meantime, always express your love and support for her. Even being an awful teenager, the worst thing for me was always when I knew my mother was disappointed in me.

Thank you @zombiegirl. I know the loving girl is there. I greatly appreciate your post. My post was really more about how I need to step back from the emotions I feel when something negative is going on, to skilfully take the practice of observing emotions, not identifying with them, during meditation off the cushion and into daily life. May you be well and happy.

lillymac61

When I and my friends and relatives were 13, we didn't speak this way to our parents. "Hormones" sounds like an excuse.
Why are you allowing this kind of behavior? Has this child been given no boundaries? Has she perhaps learned that mom is a doormat? Just wondering.



@Dakini Hmmm, Just wondering myself if you have any children of your own as I note your reflection on your own childhood rather than actual parenting experience. Respectfully I say, there is a big difference. I'm glad you and your friends didn't speak to your parents sharply. Your parents should count themselves lucky. Puberty is not limited to hormonal changes but I won't go into that here. Just as we are all different as adults, so are our children. There are many tactics to be employed to teach our young ones respect for themselves and others and what works with one won't necessarily work with another. We have to keep trying out new things to see what works and even then new ones have to be found as they grow and change. I'm reminded that it is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings for the same reason, because we are all different.

To answer your question I don't condone disrespectful behaviour and your conceptual leap that there are no boundaries puzzles me. There are many boundaries regarding many situations. And no, neither myself nor her father are doormats. We do our best on any given day to do the best by our willful, sensitive daughter. We don't have all the answers but the most important thing is she knows she is loved dearly.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear in my post as I have access to a plethora of parenting advice. Though framed by a situation with my daughter I'm primarily interested in skilful means of stepping back from disturbing emotions so I do not identify with them, turning them into an idea of me. I am still learning I am not my thoughts and emotions.

lillymac61

footiam said:

footiam said:

Sometimes, we can't just take hormones as the reason for a teenager's misbehavior. Perhaps, the mind ought to be trained from an early age.

At least, there is still an effort to clean up spilt milk. Sometimes, I for one, would just blame everything on God.

@footiam If I believed in God I'd probably make God the scapegoat too.

lillymac61

karasti said:

I was thinking of my stepsister today. We aren't close, my mom married her dad when I was over 30 years old. She is now 22. Anyhow, she and her dad are always at odds. She was a pretty typical teenage girl and is now a typical college student (she is in grad school). Anyhow, her dad can't let go of her brattiness as a teenager even though she is out of it as an adult. Because he cannot forgive and move on, neither can she and they are always locking horns on every topic, and she leaves in tears every time she visits him. As a result, she only visits on holidays despite coming to our town at least once a month.

My point in thinking about them, and I think applies to anyone dealing with difficult times with their kids no matter the reason, is sometimes the most you can do is love them through it and make sure they know they are supported. Because eventually, the rough stuff will pass, the kid will grow up and even start a family, and they will appreciate their parents (generally speaking here) much more...but only if there is something worth coming back to. Sometimes when kids are horribly unruly, they still need to know they have a soft and safe place to land, no matter where they are in life. And if you want a relationship with your kid later in life, and your grand kids even later, you have to be the adult and maintain that relationship even if the kid isn't really in it. Not saying anyone is doing the opposite, just an observation based on the relationship I observe. Ashley (stepsister) is going to eventually abandon her dad and move far away, because she has no safe place, no support from her dad because he's holding grudges from her teenage years, and as she goes through life, the problems will persist.

@karasti Just loving the wisdom here, thanks again :-)

karasti

One practical thing that works for me, especially when you are dealing with kids who are older, is to just be honest. Tell them "look, right now I'm not feeling like I can really sit down and talk to you about this. Let's take a break for 15 minutes and then get back together to talk after we can both take a breath and consider our point of view." I use that time to meditate and I'm much more able to go into a discussion from a calm point of view. It's ok to not deal with everything that second, and kids will respect you more when you can say you need some time to quiet down before responding. I have a tendency to jump into argument with my teenager because he likes to argue and so do I, and we just talk each other in circles until my husband separates us for his own sanity. We don't yell at each other, but we go in circles like mad. Realizing it before it's about to happen and taken a step back helps me a lot.

It's also ok to tell them "Right now, I'm upset about what is going on, and I think we both need a time out before we talk about it." And if you do go overboard and yell or get mad before you get a chance to back off, then apologize. There have been times I've blown up and yelled, but when I know I reacted badly, no matter what it was that they did, I go to them and say "look, yes I was upset but I didn't have the right to yell at you and I really am trying to do better at recognizing it before I get to that point." Sometimes the hardest thing to do as a parent is to apologize to your kid when you mess up, lol, but it also helps them realize that parents mess up too, and that it's ok to mess up sometimes, as long as you make it right asap.

Tosh

Teenage girls are Mara in disguise. Or maybe they're the Buddha in disguise and they're here to teach us stuff like patience and tolerance?

I have a 16 year old, and she has the ability to drive me around the bend at times. Buddhism is a practise, the word 'practise' infers that the more we do it, the better we get, but we will still make mistakes and get it wrong. I just keep practising. Sometimes I'm a great parent, sometimes I'm terrible. Sometimes I'm loving and kind, patient and tolerant; other times I fly off the handle and shout.

I have faith in human nature though; I think our children have the ability to grow up to be decent human beings, often in spite of what we do to them.

In short, I just tend to muddle along, aspiring to be a better parent, but often failing.

Is there another way?

RebeccaS

Yeah, also not a parent but a former teenage girl.

Hormones, hormones, hormones. You're not seeing your daughter when she misbehaves, you're seeing hormones in action.

She probably doesn't even know why she's so angry, though she'll try to find reasons, for example, "it's so unfair" or "you suck and I hate you" or whatever, but it's not really true.

I was a typical bad kid. I did drugs, I was a runaway, I didn't go to school, I disappeared for days on end, I abused my family horribly, I stole... Simply, you name it, I did it

But it passed.

All I can really tell you is where my mom got it wrong (and given that we have a great relationship now you can be the judge of how wrong) and that was giving up on me.

She stopped showing that she cared about me, that she wanted anything to do with me. What I wanted was a relentless love, a love that I could refuse time and time again but that would never go away. I wanted to be able to say no to that love because I was a hormonal mess, but I wanted the option.

My family started doing things without me... They'd all go out to the movies together without inviting me, stuff like that. I would have said no, of course, but when they stopped inviting me I pushed back even harder because I felt like even more of an outsider. My behavior get even worse.

My advice to you would be don't do that. Just love the hell out of her no matter what. Let her know that she does belong and that you do love her, and allow her to refuse it if she wants to.

And, truly, if things get too out of hand, get her screened for depression or mental illnes. Nobody who is feeling good acts out, and she might need some professional help. Hormones affect the chemical balance of the brain, and if things get too out of whack she might need some medical intervention to get things regulated again.

My family missed my serious depression, writing me off as just a bad egg... It's something worth looking out for.

footiam

lillymac61 said:

If I believed in God I'd probably make God the scapegoat too.

I find it easier to blame someone whom don't believe in!

lillymac61

RebeccaS said:

Yeah, also not a parent but a former teenage girl.

Hormones, hormones, hormones. You're not seeing your daughter when she misbehaves, you're seeing hormones in action.

She probably doesn't even know why she's so angry, though she'll try to find reasons, for example, "it's so unfair" or "you suck and I hate you" or whatever, but it's not really true.

I was a typical bad kid. I did drugs, I was a runaway, I didn't go to school, I disappeared for days on end, I abused my family horribly, I stole... Simply, you name it, I did it

But it passed.

All I can really tell you is where my mom got it wrong (and given that we have a great relationship now you can be the judge of how wrong) and that was giving up on me.

She stopped showing that she cared about me, that she wanted anything to do with me. What I wanted was a relentless love, a love that I could refuse time and time again but that would never go away. I wanted to be able to say no to that love because I was a hormonal mess, but I wanted the option.

My family started doing things without me... They'd all go out to the movies together without inviting me, stuff like that. I would have said no, of course, but when they stopped inviting me I pushed back even harder because I felt like even more of an outsider. My behavior get even worse.

My advice to you would be don't do that. Just love the hell out of her no matter what. Let her know that she does belong and that you do love her, and allow her to refuse it if she wants to.

And, truly, if things get too out of hand, get her screened for depression or mental illnes. Nobody who is feeling good acts out, and she might need some professional help. Hormones affect the chemical balance of the brain, and if things get too out of whack she might need some medical intervention to get things regulated again.

My family missed my serious depression, writing me off as just a bad egg... It's something worth looking out for.

Hey @RebeccaS thank you for sharing your teenage perspective. I must admit there are times I don't want anything to do with her but I hear what your saying about hanging in there with the relentless love. I tell her everyday I love her, hug her, but have recently started wondering if some of my actions are actually reflecting what I say. Your advice about depression freaks me out but I'll take it seriously. I've seen some stuff she's posted on line and it's pretty dark, ie any happiness she shows is fake. My partner thinks she's just being a dramatic teen but now I'm not so sure. I'm glad you have a good relationship with your mum now, glad you both didn't burn your bridges. My best wishes to you

lillymac61

footiam said:

lillymac61 said:

If I believed in God I'd probably make God the scapegoat too.

I find it easier to blame someone whom don't believe in!

@footiam, ha ha, I like the way you think

lillymac61

Tosh said:

Teenage girls are Mara in disguise. Or maybe they're the Buddha in disguise and they're here to teach us stuff like patience and tolerance?

I have a 16 year old, and she has the ability to drive me around the bend at times. Buddhism is a practise, the word 'practise' infers that the more we do it, the better we get, but we will still make mistakes and get it wrong. I just keep practising. Sometimes I'm a great parent, sometimes I'm terrible. Sometimes I'm loving and kind, patient and tolerant; other times I fly off the handle and shout.

I have faith in human nature though; I think our children have the ability to grow up to be decent human beings, often in spite of what we do to them.

In short, I just tend to muddle along, aspiring to be a better parent, but often failing.

Is there another way?

@Tosh, great stuff. I think your right about the practise and right about the aspiration. Buddha or Mara your right about the patience and tolerance too, I've often thought she was my teacher in that way.

RebeccaS

lillymac61 said:

RebeccaS said:

Yeah, also not a parent but a former teenage girl.

Hormones, hormones, hormones. You're not seeing your daughter when she misbehaves, you're seeing hormones in action.

She probably doesn't even know why she's so angry, though she'll try to find reasons, for example, "it's so unfair" or "you suck and I hate you" or whatever, but it's not really true.

I was a typical bad kid. I did drugs, I was a runaway, I didn't go to school, I disappeared for days on end, I abused my family horribly, I stole... Simply, you name it, I did it

But it passed.

All I can really tell you is where my mom got it wrong (and given that we have a great relationship now you can be the judge of how wrong) and that was giving up on me.

She stopped showing that she cared about me, that she wanted anything to do with me. What I wanted was a relentless love, a love that I could refuse time and time again but that would never go away. I wanted to be able to say no to that love because I was a hormonal mess, but I wanted the option.

My family started doing things without me... They'd all go out to the movies together without inviting me, stuff like that. I would have said no, of course, but when they stopped inviting me I pushed back even harder because I felt like even more of an outsider. My behavior get even worse.

My advice to you would be don't do that. Just love the hell out of her no matter what. Let her know that she does belong and that you do love her, and allow her to refuse it if she wants to.

And, truly, if things get too out of hand, get her screened for depression or mental illnes. Nobody who is feeling good acts out, and she might need some professional help. Hormones affect the chemical balance of the brain, and if things get too out of whack she might need some medical intervention to get things regulated again.

My family missed my serious depression, writing me off as just a bad egg... It's something worth looking out for.

Hey @RebeccaS thank you for sharing your teenage perspective. I must admit there are times I don't want anything to do with her but I hear what your saying about hanging in there with the relentless love. I tell her everyday I love her, hug her, but have recently started wondering if some of my actions are actually reflecting what I say. Your advice about depression freaks me out but I'll take it seriously. I've seen some stuff she's posted on line and it's pretty dark, ie any happiness she shows is fake. My partner thinks she's just being a dramatic teen but now I'm not so sure. I'm glad you have a good relationship with your mum now, glad you both didn't burn your bridges. My best wishes to you

Well teens are dramatic but that's just the hormones again.

Try not to let the idea of depression freak you out. It's really common and very treatable. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her or with you as a parent, it's a chemical thing that happens sometimes. With early intervention and proper management there is no need for it to be a big deal. When she has a fever you give her Tylenol, right? It's the same thing.

But obviously you're keeping an eye on her - keeping tabs on her online life is super important - but do try not to let too much slip through... Chances are that if she is posting stuff like that something is going on. It's normal, too a degree, but if she's posting things like that and it goes on longer than a phase normally would, I'd start looking at it as a warning sign and I'd maybe talk to my doctor for some professional advice. Teens can be dramatic, but they also feel really intensely which can get overwhelming.

As for your actions not being consistent with what you say... Well, that can be distressing for her. If she's hearing the words but isn't seeing action according to those words, she may feel distrustful of you, that your words are empty. Love is consistency. It's not just kisses and cuddles, it's following through on what you say so that she knows she can trust you. It's telling her what the consequences of her actions will be (no phone for a week for example) and then taking her phone for a week. Not three or four days, a week. It's telling her that if she isn't home on time she doesn't get to go out Saturday. And then locking the door on Saturday, regardless of screaming, crying, begging, even good behavior etc. Consistency builds trust and a feeling of safety and love is sometimes doing things that she might not like.

Teenagers are really selfish - hormones again. It's the most selfish she'll ever be in her life. Loving her doesn't mean letting her walk all over you. It's ok for you to express your disapproval of her behavior and to let her know that what she's doing isn't acceptable and that it hurts you. Honesty about your own feelings will also build that trust.

As for the softer side, the kisses, the hugs, the words, dole them out frequently and with abandon and like I said before, allow her to refuse it if she wants to. As long as you keep coming back, and she knows she can rely on that love, she'll feel safe.

As a mom, just use your best judgement and if your mom intuition is telling you something isn't right then trust it. If you're feeling like this will pass or that you need longer to determine a pattern in her behavior or that you're just not sure, then give it time and keep an eye on her. As long as you're aware of the signs and symptoms of depression, and know to take them seriously, you'll know what to do when the time comes. And, as always, if you're unsure, seek the advice of a professional. My professional background is with troubled youth, so I have a little insight, but my recommendation would always be to see a doctor or other professional who can really steer you in the right direction and provide any support you and your daughter need. (Your happiness and well being are important too!)

Good luck!

vinlyn

A word of caution here. We need to not overstate the hormone issue.

As a middle and high school teacher and principal, I've known literally thousands of teens, and the idea that they're all running wild, are rude, are going to extremes, all hate their parents, etc. is pure nonsense.

Human beings -- including teens -- have the ability to control their behavior. While it may be more of a challenge to control behavior at age 12, 13, etc., it's far from impossible. And, to be frank, most of the time that I saw the out of control behavior in a teen, I saw poor parenting, as well.

And this whole issue about teens hating their parents. Some parents deserve a rather severe critique. I have known parents who physically or sexually abuse their children. Parents who are racists or homophobes, or religious nuts, or...etc. As adults we have a lot of control over with whom we associate. A child or teen doesn't. They're stuck with their parents...good or bad, wonderful or hateful. Even today at age 63, I can make a list of my relatives and give you cogent reasons why I loved or hated (well, not hated...too strong), respected or had disdain for each one of them.

There's a website out there called ratemyteachers.com. My teachers despised that website, where students and parents could rate them and write about them. And yes, not all the reviews were realistic. But, for the most part, taken as a whole on any one particular teacher, the reviews tended to be relatively realistic. And some teachers (and this principal) took the review to heart...considered what they really said...and it made a difference. Others ignored the reviews...and continued being less than stellar teachers...just like some parents never listen to their kids and never take their feelings into account...take the "it's my way or the highway approach" to parenting, even though "the highway" isn't an option for the kids at all.

karasti

Vinlyn, the deal is, a lot of teens feel out of control, but it doesn't manifest at school. I never once acted out in school. I never got in trouble once. I was a straight A student, polite and pleasant, and have a whole collection of notes sent to my parents that say things like "Your daughter is the kind of girl we'd like our son's to bring home" and other such things. But on the inside, I was a mess. I wasn't even horrible to my parents. I did argue with them sometimes, I slammed doors and yelled and cried. But how I felt on the inside and the things I did that no one knew about, were a far cry from what I exhibited to the outside world. Hormones aren't an excuse, but they are a reason and they do need to be acknowledged and dealt with. And like I said before, kids are going through it at earlier ages now. While even when I was a kid, I went through it at 14-17, I was already maturing a bit to be able to know how it was appropriate to react. I knew it wasn't ok to do or say things to certain people. So I did things to myself instead. However, with kids going through puberty starting at age 9 and 10 now, i think the game has changed. Not only do they have the hormones to deal with, but the complete lack of maturity.

My parents would have rather I acted out so they could reach out to me, than for me to pretend I was the perfect daughter who was feeling really badly on the inside. It wasn't even depression, at least that I've been able to tell. I had no typical symptoms of it. But I did not deal with anger and difficult emotions well and I didn't want anyone to know it.

vinlyn

Karasti, I don't agree. The students we had who got in trouble at school were generally kids whom the parents were hugely frustrated with, as well. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but rarely was a parent surprised at bad behavior in school...although there were some who made excuses that were laughable.

The issue of how you felt inside. Stop and think about the issues we see adults writing about on this forum. We have alcoholics, drug addicts, and almost every other kind of symptom of mental and physical illness of this forum. Why should kids be different.

And go back to what I actually wrote: "We need to not overstate the hormone issue."

karasti

I read what you wrote. My point was mainly that, just because kids behaved in school doesn't mean they didn't have raging hormones going on that caused them extreme difficulty. Was the fact I wasn't a rude trouble-making kid better than those who were acting out in school? Not really. Most of the ones who were smarting off to teachers and doing bad school work weren't the kids who went home and punched holes through their walls and covered them with posters. Both of them were often cases of raging hormones, just different manifestations, and one isn't better than the other just based on how they behaved at school.

It doesn't mean you just put up with poor behavior and say "oh, well it's hormones "and let them terrorize school or their parents or siblings or themselves in the name of puberty and just let it go. No one said that. But to claim that hormones aren't a major player would be wrong as well.

vinlyn

Karasti, which is why I said, "We need to not overstate the hormone issue."

With kids we tend to excuse bad behavior by saying it's "raging hormones". Yet when the roughly same percentage of adults act badly, we don't say they have "raging hormones". Then we take it seriously and say they have some emotional or physical health issue.

We tend to take adult behavior issues seriously, but excuse teen behavior issues with the "it's just raging hormones".

karasti

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying with that last sentence.

RebeccaS

@Vinlyn Because it can be hard to judge whether a child does have a serious issue or they're behaving poorly because of hormones. This is one of the reasons many diagnoses can't be given to anyone under the age of 18 - personality disorders for example.

Hormonal imbalances can affect the development of the brain and it's something that shouldn't be taken lightly. Hormones isn't an excuse, it's an explanation.

vinlyn

I don't agree, Rebecca. All too often there was no attempt to make a diagnosis. In fact, there were countless times when we would suggest a parent take the child to a specialist or at least a medical doctor, and specific to this discussion, the parent would literally say, "No, it's just hormones".

Because I lived most of my career in the community in which I worked, and didn't move away from that particular school for 20 years, I got to see many of my former students as adults. Guess what. For the most part, they didn't change much.

karasti

Nothin should be excused just as hormones,and a medial professional should be able to help make that distinction, to some degree. But I also think that we way over medicate children and a lot of this comes from schools who are saying "something is wrong with your child and you need to get that fixed or they won't be able to succeed in school" when the problem is really more so to do with our society and how we structure much of our public school. We can't cater to kids needs, so the only option is to medicate them so they can make it through a school year. I have a child like this, and it SUCKS.

RebeccaS

I think that's a different issue. If parents aren't educated enough to get their children proper help and do use hormones as an excuse, that's a problem (although in fairness, many people do begin to self regulate when they reach adulthood) but what we're talking about is overstating the effect of hormones.

It seems to me that these parents in your example have been understating it.

RebeccaS

@karasti there is a difference between medicating them because of a biological issue and over-medicating them, but that isn't even for a school to decide at the end of the day. Only a medical professional can make that distinction, and generally they don't like to medicate kids anymore than parents do and so won't unless they feel it's necessary.

karasti

I know, but like for my son, if it weren't' for how the school system were structured, he wouldn't need medication. It is only in school that he has problems, and it is because of the requirements of the system that he can't adapt to, and the system can't adapt to him. Not here, I know schools in other areas can, which is awesome. It's just a frustrating place to be as a parent knowing you basically have no choice but to medicate your child so they make it through school. My son was diagnosed after a very lengthy process, but it was because the school required us to get him tested. It's just hard, when your child has problems in one area, but not others, especially when the medication they take fundamentally changes their personality and not for the better all in the name of success in school. Sigh. I am hoping as he gets older we will better able to find ways to cope without medication. We try it every year. So far, no dice. Ultimately yes it is up to us and the doctor whether to medicate him. The doctor supports whichever decision we think is best. But the school is very much "you need to medicate him or we cannot teach him."

karasti

Sorry to hijack the thread, I seem to do that! My apologies. To keep it back on topic, I do think it is a fine line. And I think both parents, and school administrators think they have it right and because of that, they have a difficult time working together. Tt was just very hard to find a common ground because the child they saw was not the child I knew. It wasn't until they involved the special ed. team and the school psychologist that we finally made headway at meetings, because we needed those people to bridge the gap. It's ok to get help from other people, even when it's your own child sometimes the gap is just too large and you need to involve someone else. Family counselors can be amazing resources to bridging that gap if you can't do it yourself. We used one for many many months after my sons' father died and the communication we learned as a family was outstanding. I would highly recommend counseling for families who are struggling to communicate with their children, even if hormones are a major part of that.

RebeccaS

I'm really sorry to hear about the medicate or we can't teach attitude. I find that really shocking. I hope things start to get better for you guys.

vinlyn

RebeccaS said:

@karasti there is a difference between medicating them because of a biological issue and over-medicating them, but that isn't even for a school to decide at the end of the day. Only a medical professional can make that distinction, and generally they don't like to medicate kids anymore than parents do and so won't unless they feel it's necessary.

I know that school systems differ in terms of policy. But in every school system I have been in, teachers were forbidden to recommend medication for children. It was left up to doctors. And in fact, most teachers I know feel that too many kids were medicated too much.

In terms of diagnosing children being difficult, while it may be a challenge, every child in the United States who is properly being provided with special education services has been diagnosed. You can't just volunteer for special ed.

karasti

Oh I know that you can't just sign up for it, and that there are very specific criteria for getting such services. With us, it hasn't been a case where the teachers recommend it. It's more so a case of they know he has a doctor, they know he has a prescription and any time there is an issue it comes back to "is he taking his medication/maybe he needs more medication." Every fall, we start off the year without taking it, to see how he does, and every year within 3-4 weeks he is back on it because the school has come back and said "it's not working, he's not doing his work, he's not sitting still, he's asking to use the bathroom too often, he's fidgiting...he needs be back on his meds or his work is going to suffer." Last spring we took him off again (with communication with the school and doctor) and his grades his last semester were B, D, D, D, F. He is back on his meds, and his grades this past quarter were B, B+, A, A, A. So for him, at this time, to succeed he seems to need the meds. However, it's still difficult for us because it changes his personality and he's not the same kid as he is in the summer when he's off them. It's just hard to see that he can't be himself and still succeed in school.

Jeffrey

@karasti, I can't relate to kids, but I am on some meds to prevent me from hallucinating that have a lot of side effects; they have TONS of side effects. There is still a person inside whatever personality changes. I feel better when I am off the meds in my body, but I need the meds to stop a hospitalization. In my case I am more 'me' when on meds because mania/psychosis doesn't add much to socializing as a responsible adult.

Sounds like good grades. Might be a hard compromise like I have.

Another advice is to try different drugs. Everybody's body is different and if the psychiatrist is not willing to experiment I wager they are not worth their salt (is that an expression ).

vinlyn

That's good advice, Jeffrey. What we found at the school was that certain pediatricians (and I found the same was true about my adult doctors) had "favorite" drugs they prescribed. And what we found was that finding the right drug was sometimes a frustrating process, but ultimately resulted in the best treatment. It was similar for some of our students who went to psychologists or psychiatrists. Finding the right match was key to success.

karasti

We did ask about maybe changing meds, but the doctor said that most of the meds he could take would most likely have the same side effects. There are others we could try, but the side effects of them overall, tend to be much worse. I can insist on changing, but almost all parents I've talked to (here and in other states even) their kids of the same ages are on the same med. So we'll see, I might do some research to see what I can find out. You're very right, different meds do make a difference. As a side note, that SO many kids of people i know personally are on meds to begin with, tells me the problem is us (as a society) not the kids.

Jeffrey

Yes that is another factor I forgot about. A med is always a risk. So sometimes you want to improve and sometimes you want to stay in the hand dealt so to speak.