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Is Awakening possible leading a layman's life? Your views please.
misecmisc1
I am a HinduIndia Veteran
Hi All,
Is Awakening possible while leading a layman's life - having a wife and a child. Now, theoretically it seems that it may be feasible for attaining awakening while leading any type of life - either monastic or family - but is practically awakening possible while leading a family life?
Now this leads to another question as to how much do we consider Awakening - as far as my view is concerned, i keep it simple as 0 or 1, means 0% or 100%, so either not Awakened or Awakened. Another way of thinking is going on the 4 levels - stream enterer to Arahant - but i think even the stream enterer level also needs removal of self-view, which in itself seems to be next to impossible, if not impossible task. So I am not considering these 4 levels of Awakening, as the first level itself seems to be too difficult, if not impossible.
Now leading a layman's life gives more challenges than leading a monk's life - and so more opportunities to find the defilements within us. But the point is - can leading a layman's life, will a person ever be able to let go of everything? We know how the life can turn abruptly leading to very unfortunate situations. Take for example, money - will leading a layman's life can a person be ever able to let go of all his earnings - and end up in a situation where he does not know how will he get his next meal - this type of thought seems scary, a person leading a monk's life can somehow think for himself that he can go for alms round and try to survive on what he get - but a lay person having a family, he can think the above thing for himself, but he cannot think the same thing for his family. So can a layperson ever be able to let go of everything - so in turn can a layperson ever create a chance for his full Awakening?
I am not taking partial Awakening in the process - like we say we are walking on the spiritual path and are on different levels in the spiritual journey - this concept seems ok to me. But what I am referring to in above paragraphs, is full Awakening - so a person is either with ignorance, or fully Awakened.
So what do you think - that is there any possibility of becoming fully Awakenend while leading a family life with wife and child - or - to become fully Awakened, a person has to lead a monk's life? Please share your views on this thing. Thanks in advance.
Is Awakening possible while leading a layman's life - having a wife and a child. Now, theoretically it seems that it may be feasible for attaining awakening while leading any type of life - either monastic or family - but is practically awakening possible while leading a family life?
Now this leads to another question as to how much do we consider Awakening - as far as my view is concerned, i keep it simple as 0 or 1, means 0% or 100%, so either not Awakened or Awakened. Another way of thinking is going on the 4 levels - stream enterer to Arahant - but i think even the stream enterer level also needs removal of self-view, which in itself seems to be next to impossible, if not impossible task. So I am not considering these 4 levels of Awakening, as the first level itself seems to be too difficult, if not impossible.
Now leading a layman's life gives more challenges than leading a monk's life - and so more opportunities to find the defilements within us. But the point is - can leading a layman's life, will a person ever be able to let go of everything? We know how the life can turn abruptly leading to very unfortunate situations. Take for example, money - will leading a layman's life can a person be ever able to let go of all his earnings - and end up in a situation where he does not know how will he get his next meal - this type of thought seems scary, a person leading a monk's life can somehow think for himself that he can go for alms round and try to survive on what he get - but a lay person having a family, he can think the above thing for himself, but he cannot think the same thing for his family. So can a layperson ever be able to let go of everything - so in turn can a layperson ever create a chance for his full Awakening?
I am not taking partial Awakening in the process - like we say we are walking on the spiritual path and are on different levels in the spiritual journey - this concept seems ok to me. But what I am referring to in above paragraphs, is full Awakening - so a person is either with ignorance, or fully Awakened.
So what do you think - that is there any possibility of becoming fully Awakenend while leading a family life with wife and child - or - to become fully Awakened, a person has to lead a monk's life? Please share your views on this thing. Thanks in advance.
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Comments
The root of this tradition is founded by lower caste lay people.
The emphasis is on the redemption of the material through the subtle energy and most importantly the dynamic interplay between voidness and life.
Of course you wouldn't throw out Hinayana or Mahayana. These just becomes the two wheel that propel the third wheel.
But to be blunt awakening is very possible for anyone.
One just has to see the dharma as the only gold there is and dedicate their whole life to it. Your whole life. Your marriage, job, friends, everything is part of the dharma.
In Vajrayana you run directly into life and life presents you back to your natural state of enlightenment.
Best wishes.
Your on a roll lately mate you made me realise why the first turning is a better path for monastics and why out of compassion the others arose in the world.
You’re better off with a supportive family than with a couple of frustrated monks; and obviously the same thing is true the other way around.
I don’t think you can count on it that monks are balanced, wise and supportive people; they are just people. And in a monastery there is a lot of work to do.
Our enlightenment depends – I think – on our own determination and on the way we relate to our environment; not on our environment.
A monk or laymans path is of secondary importance to the sincerity and courage of the practioner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment
Pretty good summary.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.013.than.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
(childhood mantra)
You are as near to awakening as the flutter of an eyelid.
Everything else is play time. Dukkha.
"When an ordinary man gains knowledge, he is a sage; when a sage gains understanding, he is an ordinary man." ~ Zen saying
It is also possible that the bonds could be cut at the time of death leading to total liberation.
I don't think one has to become a bhikkhu.
What is it with Buddhism and our obsession with lists?
I suspect the only thing a monk finds easier while living behind temple walls is planning a schedule. Get up, clean up, eat, meditate, chores, next meal, meditate, more chores, bedtime. Repeat as necessary.
Does this make it easier for a monk to be enlightened? Well, the temples are certainly not full of enlightened people. They're full of monks. The rules are designed to produce people who act like monks. Nothing wrong with that. But does the world need more monks, or does it need more mothers and fathers who know the Dharma?
Here is a Zen story about a family back in China famous for being enlightened. Somehow, word got around that the husband, wife, and daughter all had Awakened to their Buddha Nature. A traveling Master, not believing this, went to see the family to find out for himself. He asked the father, "How hard was it to be enlightened?" and the father said, "Oh, hard, hard! Like counting the rice stalks in a field!" Then he asked the mother how hard it was to be enlightened, and she said, "Oh, easy, easy! Like watching rice boil in a pot!" Then he asked the daughter the same question, and she laughed and said, "Not easy, not hard. Like rice growing in the summer sun!"
The monk continued on his way, satisfied in his own mind that the entire family was indeed, enlightened.
I don't know if I even have a point in all this, except to answer, Not easy, not hard.
Speaking of hands, it also reminds me of an admonishment by a teacher of mine that acting like a centipede with a washcloth in every arm showed little understanding of acceptance.
It was supposed to help him move on in his practice and maybe he would reach a breakthrough there.
It turned out he spent the half year ironing. There were sheets, tablecloths and napkins and in a Zen-monastery they had to be clean and tight at all times.
While he was there the topic of intense debate was not anything fancy about Dharma, but about how to clean the toilets. It could be done using chlorine (which all agreed worked) or with something more environment-friendly (which didn’t work according to some).
He looks back at this period as something of a disappointment but he is over idealizing monastic life now.
A monastery –like a home for the elderly – can be a small world. It doesn’t have fewer problems. In a small world, small problems simply are magnified until we reach our desired level of excitement (I suppose).
Thanks for sharing your views. Some nice observations coming in.
But still guys - do you think on a practical level, does layman's family life helps on progressing on the path. My thinking says even though family life helps us to confront our defilements by presenting us unfavourable situations - but - the obligations which are imposed by the marriage, like the expectations which wife and child have on you, the responsibilities which are given to you on having a family, the time which these things take from us - is it really worth in comparison to leading a monastic life?
Also having a family impose more possessions on us, adding to our self-view - like of course, my attitude towards my wife will not be the same as my attitude towards other women, my attitude towards my children will not be the same as my attitude towards other children - for example, suppose another child hits my child and suppose the other child was at fault, then can a person see both the children with equanimity, without getting biased, without being even slightly angry on the other child even at thought level.
So does living a monk's life saves more time for us and relieves us with less possessions - thereby helping him indirectly on the path to Awakening? Please share your views on this thing.
Theoretically, I suppose yes. In fact, that's the official line. But from the monks I've known and the temples I've visited, I'd have to agree with @zenff that the practical effect is minimal, if that. The possessions, in particular, aren't the problem. It's our limitless desire for possessions that must be penetrated and eliminated, and that is an entirely separate issue. Someone who owns only one robe can and usually is as attached to that one robe as you are to your house, sometimes more so because it's even more precious to them. You become as attached to your own temple, your position and title in that temple and your Sangha and Masters as a husband is to his family. You see how form is empty? Monk or layman, your mind remains the same and you take that with you wherever you go.
Now, if you are from a school of Buddhism that is all about meditation, then of course being forced to meditate half the day every day rain or shine is an advantage. I used to be a "meditation only" Buddhist but over the years, I've come to suspect we've only substituted meditation and worship of our crazy Zen Master in place of worship of the Sutras and rank within the Sangha. Sitting in meditation for half your life only makes you really good at meditation, and ruins your knees.
I've come to the conclusion that retreating behind temple walls to be enlightened is like moving to the desert so you can avoid drowning. Maybe staying in the boat and learning how to swim would be an equally valid path. If you are a husband facing down a bank that wants to repossess your house while your teenage girl announces she's pregnant and your neighbor's dog barks under your bedroom window every night, then it might not seem like a life that is conductive to enlightenment. But if you emerge at the end with your compassion and sanity intact, you will have learned what is meant by, "After enlightenment, the laundry."
So basically do the best you can in your current circumstances, and keep an open mind as to whether you could make your circumstances more conducive to practice.
why not???
You are a product of natural conditions.
Unlearning to relinquish to unravelling natural condition is not limited by any particular set of circumstances.
But seriously, I think pondering this too much will detract us from understanding the crux of the Buddha's teaching- letting go of craving and clinging - the unsatiated thirst for wanting more pleasure and not wanting any pain - that is the cause of dukkha.
It is a game of strip poker where you learn how to lose.
Monastic and lay life present their own spins to this challenge.
The right place to do it has always where ever you happen to be.
Bodhidharma never ironed his robes. Good enough for me. :clap:
I also put my ego out to dry. So far it still wrinkles.
I like wrinkles. :vimp:
As far as the other questions about householders and family life, it really depends on who you marry and what you set up for your life to be as a family. Just because you get married and have a family doesn't mean you have to go crazy on having possessions and material stuff. There are a lot of options for how to manage such things, and just because it's typical for a married couple with kids to by a $250,000 house and have 2 brand new cars and lots of debt and high pressure, stressful, time-consuming jobs doesn't mean that is how it has to be. You can design your marriage and your family life to be whatever you want it to be-if you marry a person whose outlook matches yours.
I have 3 kids, all 3 of whom have medical or emotional challenges of some sort. I have no problem finding plenty of time to meditate and to practice. One of the ways we chose to live family life is to simplify and we do it pretty consistently. Yes, there are things, living within society that we have to do that monks and nuns do not. But it is only as much of a distraction as you allow it to be.
I do bet it'd be pretty annoying on some levels to be a teenager with an enlightened parent, lol.
I would imagine so and there seems to be a couple of examples.
What gets me is that two different awakened beings (I'm thinking Thich Nhat Hanh and H.H. The Dalai Lama) can wind through two different lineages... That one always strikes my fancy.
I think (there's that Canadian "I think" again but I'm not going to pretend to be certain) it's because the core teachings are the same.
It could even be like a trying to quit smoking kind of thing... Some people need help and have to get all prepared while others just go cold turkey.
Yeah, I havn't got a clue.
That being said if you do manage to put the time in and go on retreat sometimes maybe you can become enlightened. Maybe you have so much merit from a past life that you just need a little bit more. And maybe a monk in retreat 40 years doesn't have that karma from a past life and they don't become enlightened?
This is what it is like when you become enlightened
Raising a family you learn certain things. And studying/meditating you learn different things.
In Theravada this is called the difference between mundane and supramundane.
Test out what I am saying. Do your own retreat one weekend where four hours in the morning you meditate and study. Do two days in your own retreat and see for yourself.
The devotional saying that the path to awakening lies in emulating their teacher (read Monk)
The meditative saying that the path to awakening is the Buddha's meditation itself with perhaps his last admonishment of being an Island onto yourself.
There are arguments for and against both approaches but I think both are valid with the real efficacy of either, best determined by the temperament of the student.
Agree with everything you said btw @karasti. My wife and I made the decision to move out to the country when we started a family. We decided to get right back to basics with a lot of things (growing vegetables, very little television, wooden toys etc.) - there really is a lot to be said for the way people used to live before we were overtaken by mass consumerism.
I remember one retreat I went on, my most mindful hour wasn't in the meditation hall but was in the kitchen, chopping a large batch of carrots with a very sharp knife.
The Buddha himself said very clearly - there are not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred but many more lay men, many more than five hundred lay women, who have attained stream entry. And the same 'many more than five hundred' goes to lay once returners, lay non returners. (Source: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/073-maha-vacchagotta-e1.html) Also: it is stated that these stream enterers and once returners may still be 'partaking sensual pleasures' - or in other words they may still have sexual relations. Non returners onwards severe sexual activity.
Furthermore: there are recorded instances in Pali suttas of laymen who attain Arhantship, however they all go into renunciation on that day they awaken (makes sense: Arahants no longer have attachments, so why would they stay in their home life?)
. . . but ironing? Just say no.
I fully accept ironing, cleaning (I enjoy that), gardening . . . all task orientated practice - wonderful. If you practice in life . . . Just sitting is a joy, you are ironing yourself into enlightenment.
You are combining life + practice, wake up and enjoy the practice . . . as they used to tell me when I was a Buddhist
Some nice observations to see the other side of the story of a monastic life. Seems like it is not more greener on the other side.
will try to put more mindfulness in life's daily activities - may be i am not putting much effort in keeping mindfulness in life's daily activities.
In my opinion there has been a certain imbalance in Buddhism placing too much emphasis on monasticism. Perhaps it is now being re-balanced by the popularity of lay practice in the West (and East as well).
A query - why did the Buddha left his family for Awakening, if monastic life is not needed - or solitude is not necessary for the inner journey - or living in family does not pose obstacles to move on the spiritual path? Any ideas please.
I have read that Buddha after practising all ascetism and then remembered that the first time he went to Jhana under apple tree in childhood, then why did Buddha did not left his monastic life at that stage and instead returned to his palace again - and then tried on that path of moving into Jhana while living in his palace again, instead of continuing as a monk and sitting under a Bodhi tree and then using that path of moving into Jhana.
I know the above question may seem silly, but this question came to my mind now, so asking this question. May be some of you may have some thoughts about it too. Please suggest.