Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Beliefs

BunksBunks Australia Veteran
Are worthless...

You either know something or you don't.

I don't know much.

lobster

Comments

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    We never know much. It is why I am so keen on melding with AI, we might get to know a little more eventually . . .

    The question of beliefs covers what is knowable. Quite a lot to experience on the internal path of knowing . . .
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Saying that beliefs are "worthless" overstates the case.
    Saying that beliefs are worth much also overstates the case.

    The problem with beliefs is that they exist in or rely on the past while human beings live in the present. Because of this, belief's most nourishing attribute is that it emphasizes and underlines doubt, and that doubt, with a little luck, will inspire an action or series of actions that will lead to experience. Experience trumps belief and erases doubt.

    When I asked my Zen teacher about hope and belief, he observed that "For the first four or five years [of practice], belief and hope are necessary. After that, they are not so necessary." After four or five years, in his view, there is enough experience so that relying on what is unreliable becomes less sensible.
    RebeccaSlobsterTosh
  • Our problem is that we so easily confuse beliefs with facts. That the sun will come up tomorrow is a belief, not a fact (at least until it happens).
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    There are such things are correct beliefs.

    For example all beings are my kind mothers is a correct belief because not only does this correct belief generate a mind of affection and loving kindness to sentient beings if you trust Buddha's insights that Samsara is a beginingless cycle of uncontrolled rebirth and death which is a correct view according to Buddha and Dharma.
  • Well, "Beliefs" is a very broad term.

    I firmly believe that I cannot know anything for sure without empirical evidence, for one. So I keep an open mind.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Doesn't it depend on how you are thinking of belief? it doesn't have to mean a firmly held conviction. I think some people intertwining it with faith too much. I believe that it is cold outside today, even though I have yet to open the door. Because my many years of experience tell me that when my furnace runs all morning, its cold outside. I also believe I'm going to get up and take allergy medicine in about 30 seconds because my head is all stuffed up.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Bunks is expressing humility (of sorts)
    In Buddhism we have faith in the practice and as we begin to know the benefits our 'faith' or belief in its efficacy is backed up . . .
    So we increase in 'faith'.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    I think belief is just predictive thought? My practise pertains to allowing their existance
    without becoming attached to them.
    lobsterVastmind
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    beliefs are not worthless but they are never worth what we think they are- one of the reasons is that we get wrapped up in what our beliefs mean to our ego: we think things like, "i am my thoughts", so when someone disagrees or challenges our beliefs, we feel as if someone is disagreeing with who we are. its silly really, but the problem starts with someone clinging to the notion that their identity is one single thing, and that we must protect it at any cost. but, you are not your thoughts, you are not your beliefs. if you "know" that much, then what is left to defend?
    zenfflobster
  • What we think we know, or what we expect, or believe, or suppose, are all conventional views.
    None of them hold up in the light of absolute reality.

    The thinking is part of our practice, like being mindful and keeping basic precepts and doing our meditation. But that thinking doesn’t lead us to knowledge. The thinking is part of a process of deconstructing conventional views until we reach a critical point where we stop; not just stop thinking but really stop; and we touch upon something – we have a glimpse of the Ox.

    When we had such a glimpse or kensho, it resonates in our body and mind but we still don’t have any conventional view that covers it.

    (IMHO)
    Beejlobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited November 2012
    Dogen? ....Is that you?
    zenfflobster
  • What about if someone you care about said "I believe in you". Would that be worthless?
    Bunkslillymac61
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited November 2012
    Like everything else... belief needs the middle way.

    I just watched a Q&A session by Kevin Smith discussing his most recent movie Red State. Red State is a horror movie based on fanatic religious cults and very inspired by the Phelps family of the Westboro Baptist Church (the "God Hates Fags" people). Kevin Smith discusses his crazy experiences with the Phelps and it's amazing how far beliefs can remove someone from reality. This is one aspect of belief.

    But then, in the same segment, he goes on to discuss how important it is to have belief in yourself to succeed... how important it is to surround yourself with people who ask "Why not?" instead of "Why?". This is another aspect of belief.
    JasonVastmindlobster
  • Bunks said:

    Are worthless...

    You either know something or you don't.

    I don't know much.

    I suppose 'you either know something or you don't' and 'I don't know much' is just a belief and not applicable to everyone.
    lobster
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2012
    Believing what the Buddha said to be true is worthless? Having a belief that you can actually attain enlightenment is worthless? I don't think that is the case. :)

    Faith is seed, the entrance, the initiator, the ticket, the beginning.
    Understanding is the highest, the goal, the diamond-cutter, the end.
    Both are Floods of Advantage, Fabulous Fruits, Leading to Happiness!
    Jeffrey
  • Bunks said:

    Are worthless...

    You either know something or you don't.

    I don't know much.

    I see your point. I'd go even further, and say that beliefs can be more than worthless, they can be destructive and a mind trap that becomes impossible to escape from.

    Of course we all have beliefs, just like we all have emotions and desires and perceptions. Beliefs are a set of assumptions on how the world works. Ideally, those beliefs should accurately reflect the reality of the world. If exposed to information or experience that conflicts with our assumptions of what's true and false, we should change our beliefs. Why would we want to believe something that isn't true? That way leads to suffering for us and everyone.

    But our conscious ego doesn't want to admit we were wrong about something. Instead of seeing beliefs as assumptions subject to change, we insist our beliefs are sacred and not to be questioned. To question a belief is to attack us as a person. So the beliefs control our minds, our emotions and perceptions and actions instead. We start with the belief as true and twist our perceptions to match. We kill because of beliefs. And if you challenge my beliefs, it makes me angry.

    And elevating simple belief to a sacred, inviolate thing is destructive, even when you believe in the Buddha and Dharma. Heck, I even disagree with some statements of belief that I wrote down years ago. I will probably disagree with some of the stuff I spit out on the forum here in the future. Do I believe in what I'm saying? Of course. Right now. But I may be wrong. Since I'm not omnipotent, I certainly am wrong once in a while. Just don't expect me to admit it without a fight.
    Bunks
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Believing what the Buddha said to be true is worthless? Having a belief that you can actually attain enlightenment is worthless? I don't think that is the case. :)


    Didn't the Buddha state that we should put his teachings into practice to see if they work for us or not as opposed to taking them merely on faith?
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Beliefs are impermanent. Why have faith in them?
  • But you can use one belief to uproot another belief. It's like cleaning the eaves troughs. You unclog them but you have to be careful not to get the tool used to clean stuck itself in the drain.
Sign In or Register to comment.