Can anyone help explain this? "Crossed the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place"

footiam

Ogha-tarana Sutta: Crossing over the Flood
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2012

Translator's note: This discourse opens the Samyutta Nikaya with a paradox. The Commentary informs us that the Buddha teaches the devata in terms of the paradox in order to subdue her pride. To give this paradox some context, you might want to read other passages from the Canon that discuss right effort.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then a certain devata, in the far extreme of the night, her extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, she stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to him, "Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood."

""[1]

"But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?"

"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."

Jeffrey

You have to stay engaged just to keep your mind working and sharp. But you can't force anything. Anything. The mandalas are all empty and nobody knows what will happen. Thus you cannot make happen that what you wish. But in your heart you know and that is why to stay engaged.

pegembara

It refers to right balanced effort - samatha and vippasana.

Don't get pulled by the senses - in seeing, just see ...... in thinking, just thoughts. The mind must remain still (not whirled around by sense objects).

On the other hand the mind must not stay in one place as in getting fixed in absorption when no insights can occur (sinking).


Ajahn Chah uses the term Still, Flowing Water.

lobster

Ajahn Chah uses the term Still, Flowing Water.

Seems a very relevant term, the water is still in itself
and due to the conditions of being it flows.

In terms of paradox and progress, it is neither absorption in the experience of being
nor in the conditions of being (time, place, beginning, end)

Far too advanced for me, I am going by raft . . . :coffee:

misecmisc1

my thinking says - pushing forward refers to becoming and so whirling about in Samsara. staying in place refers to non-becoming and still stuck in Samsara - something like we choose to do nothing and so be still due to an intention of becoming still, which would be an intention of non-becoming.

So crossed the flood of Samsara without pushing forward i.e. without becoming and without staying in place i.e. without non-becoming.

Patr

Haha, it actually is a metaphor for 'Middle way/ path".
Dont take the extremes of going all out or doing nothing.

To just go with the flow, the river here means "our life", how to lead our life, do we strife ahead forcefully or just sit and wait for things to happen...?

Nope, just let the river current take you across, right effort only.

footiam

Patr said:

Haha, it actually is a metaphor for 'Middle way/ path".
Dont take the extremes of going all out or doing nothing.

To just go with the flow, the river here means "our life", how to lead our life, do we strife ahead forcefully or just sit and wait for things to happen...?

Nope, just let the river current take you across, right effort only.

If you let the river current take you, you may end up in Holland.

misecmisc1

footiam said:

Patr said:

Haha, it actually is a metaphor for 'Middle way/ path".
Dont take the extremes of going all out or doing nothing.

To just go with the flow, the river here means "our life", how to lead our life, do we strife ahead forcefully or just sit and wait for things to happen...?

Nope, just let the river current take you across, right effort only.

If you let the river current take you, you may end up in Holland.

lol, i went to Holland some years ago, though not through river, but by Austrian Airways

footiam

misecmisc1 said:

footiam said:

If you let the river current take you, you may end up in Holland.

lol, i went to Holland some years ago, though not through river, but by Austrian Airways

If you have intention to go Holland, then it does not matter how you get there. It is only a problem if you end up there when you are actually aiming for Tokyo.

Jason

My understanding is that it's essentially a type of koan that alludes to the simile of the raft and ties into the importance of right effort, pointing towards the Buddha's 'middle' approach (see especially AN 6.55).

footiam

Jeffrey said:

You have to stay engaged just to keep your mind working and sharp. But you can't force anything. Anything. The mandalas are all empty and nobody knows what will happen. Thus you cannot make happen that what you wish. But in your heart you know and that is why to stay engaged.

In life, there are so many things to get engaged in that one could get overwhelmed.

Jeffrey

@footiam, I mean sharpen thinking. Many of the things in life we get engaged in dull thinking. So I am talking about engaging the dharma, not just anything. For example we might contemplate the teachings or read or even discuss.

taiyaki

No where to stand. Here or there. Present, past or future.

footiam

Jeffrey said:

@footiam, I mean sharpen thinking. Many of the things in life we get engaged in dull thinking. So I am talking about engaging the dharma, not just anything. For example we might contemplate the teachings or read or even discuss.

Thanks Jeffrey for the explanation. Most probably we can sharpen our thinking with Science too.

Silouan

Crossing the flood represents the crossing of threshold of awakening. The push forward and staying put is representative of the polar opposites such as being or not being, life and death, and good and evil that binds the faculties to hope and fear, and links the organs of action to defense and acquisition. Transcendence or the splitting of the opposites permits the crossing.

footiam

Jason said:

My understanding is that it's essentially a type of koan that alludes to the simile of the raft and ties into the importance of right effort, pointing towards the Buddha's 'middle' approach (see especially AN 6.55).

Thanks for the raft!
I like this line: O, it was mine! O, what was mine is not!

Florian

I suspect the OP's quote refers to the fact that enlightenment does not require that we go anywhere, and so should not push the 'flood' metaphor too far. We would need only to realise where we are, not to go somewhere else. To go anywhere else would be impossible. But this interpretation is speculative, and is probably, as usual, just one of many possible levels of meaning.

Deepankar

According to adornment sutra, one is all and all is one and buddha is such oneness. Flood is samsara, stream enterer, arhat, bodhisavattas as well.

David

I think it means went with the flow. The flow is right now

Straight_Man

He/They went at least partly with flow, IMHO. The way across a flood is to move with its major direction at least partly, but also somewhat across it.

Deepankar

Staying in place if in buddha standpoint of supreme enlightenment can be referring to bodhisavatta and below like arhat and needless to mentioned living beings. Pushing forward in meditation will not achieve high ground cause there is nothing to forward for nirvana as its state has neither regress nor progressing in buddha standpoint. crossed the flood is stating the supreme state of all beings. And therefore, in meditation practice, there aint any state that you should be yearning for, just meditate and the progress will be naturally crossing over the flood.

footiam

Jason said:

My understanding is that it's essentially a type of koan that alludes to the simile of the raft and ties into the importance of right effort, pointing towards the Buddha's 'middle' approach (see especially AN 6.55).

A Koan probably started in China but it is a zen element, isn't it?

footiam

taiyaki said:

No where to stand. Here or there. Present, past or future.

I would like to have a place to stand. Here, this moment.