Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I don't know what equinamity has to do with ignoring something...
I mean, when a dog is behaving poorly you ignore it and reward its good behavior with attention. Eventually it learns that the poor behavior won't get it any attention and it stops exhibiting that behavior. Same with children, or so I'm told.
I think the same principle applies to thoughts. You don't give them any energy from your attention and eventually they just starve.
In order to be able to ignore them in the first place you have to be aware of them. As far as I understand it, that awareness is the only prerequisite to change. I would guess that as long as you're aware of it, what you do next (either pay attention or ignore) is of little consequence.
I don't mean ignoring them so much, but being able to see them from the outside, so to speak. Watching what your mind is doing, as Jeffrey said, it pretty interesting and you can even laugh at some of the things your mind comes up with. For me, my bad, judgemental, snobbish thoughts are less than they used to be. Does it matter that maybe I have a few thoughts a week instead of many a day? Perhaps not. But to me it does matter, because those bad thoughts were replaced by different types of thoughts, which allow me to see situations and people differently and thus reach out and respond to them with compassion rather than judgement. And IMO that does matter.
Looking down on and judging someone is different to hating them IMO.
Looking down on someone, judging them, and feeling superior, simply because they are not like you in some way, may not be the same as 'hating them' - but it sure isn't cultivating the Buddha nature within, is it?
I guess I'm missing something here, because I don't see how anyone claiming to be Buddhist or interested in becoming one would think that judging others is somehow "OK" - or that there are justifiable reasons to 'look down' on people. Like..... as long as you admit it, it's not so bad? Seriously?
I'm not talking about judging those who hurt others, break the law or do things that are unacceptable by our own or society's civility standards... so let's not even go there. I'm talking about judging people for the way they look, their (lack of) education, their gender, their sexual preferences, their economic status, their lifestyle choices, etc.
I kinda thought Buddhists had a rather clear guideline on that sort of thing....
I think you mistook my quote @MaryAnne. I certainly don't think it's ok to judge others. The mind just tends to do it automatically. Not always but sometimes.
I am working on changing it but I feel it will take a while.
@RebeccaS, I think we are doing the same things with our mind, but just using different words. My Lama says that each person needs to find the words that motivate them and capture their experience. So 'ignore' might be your word whereas 'let be' is mine.
Didn't mean to come off so harshly with that last post or to target you Bunks, or anyone else in particular.... I was just trying to get the idea across that it should be within our aspirations to not only acknowledge that we *all* can and do fall into the trap of snobbery and snobbish judgment about others from time to time, but to take that acknowledgment and in turn (try to) train our minds away from such thoughts, and not just say; "Oh well, I know it's snobbish, I know it's wrong, but I don't care, it's just how I feel/think/am..."
Well, anyway, here nor there, right?
I just want to apologize if I came off as particularly bitchy ... I've not had a very good day dealing with people today. But it has little to do with anyone here or this topic. I'm just sliding into a " Holy shit- I reeeeally hate people, right now" mood.... but I didn't mean to take it out on anyone here. Sorry.
Didn't mean to come off so harshly with that last post or to target you Bunks, or anyone else in particular.... I was just trying to get the idea across that it should be within our aspirations to not only acknowledge that we *all* can and do fall into the trap of snobbery and snobbish judgment about others from time to time, but to take that acknowledgment and in turn (try to) train our minds away from such thoughts, and not just say; "Oh well, I know it's snobbish, I know it's wrong, but I don't care, it's just how I feel/think/am..."
Well, anyway, here nor there, right?
I just want to apologize if I came off as particularly bitchy ... I've not had a very good day dealing with people today. But it has little to do with anyone here or this topic. I'm just sliding into a " Holy shit- I reeeeally hate people, right now" mood.... but I didn't mean to take it out on anyone here. Sorry.
No offence taken here mate. No probs. Hope your day gets better.
Being a snob or [insert state of being] has a trigger and a cause. Triggers are always around us . . . the cause and cure is always with us . . . it is us :dunce: I guess we all knew that all along . . .
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I don't know if this has been done, so here is the root of the word, 'snob':
snob (n.) 1781, "a shoemaker, a shoemaker's apprentice," of unknown origin. It came to be used in Cambridge University slang c.1796 for "townsman, local merchant," and by 1831 it was being used for "person of the ordinary or lower classes."
Meaning "person who vulgarly apes his social superiors" arose 1843, popularized 1848 by William Thackeray's "Book of Snobs." The meaning later broadened to include those who insist on their gentility, in addition to those who merely aspire to it.
By 1911 the word had its main modern sense of "one who despises those considered inferior in rank, attainment, or taste."
So fundamentally, anyone who's a snob, is talking a load of old cobbler's.....
But the mean thoughts? First of all, there's not much we can really do about them. They come, they go, we don't ask for them... As long as we're aware that they're not true, that's about the best we can do.
I think one can do much better by doing Metta cultivation thereby deliberately and intentionally eliminating them altogether. Metta practice, done wholeheartedly and consistently, is an extremely powerful practice. So powerful in fact that anything you can say about it would be a severe understatement!
I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love and takes always delight in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, and make it immovable and unshakable. I develop the divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha. 648-9
@seeker242, I disagree. They are both powerful practices.
mean thought and metta can co-exist. That is why the aprimanas are immeasurable; they can exist anywhere including the hell-states. But they don't remove the kleshas/hell states they just hold the kleshas like a mother and babe. Sharon Salzburg makes this point early on in her book.
1
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Neuroplasticity proves that we can change our thought patterns. Not ignoring, actual change. Our thoughts actually change our brain, not the other way around. It's actually pretty freakin cool.
@seeker242, I disagree. They are both powerful practices.
mean thought and metta can co-exist. That is why the aprimanas are immeasurable; they can exist anywhere including the hell-states. But they don't remove the kleshas/hell states they just hold the kleshas like a mother and babe. Sharon Salzburg makes this point early on in her book.
Ok, I will give that the benefit of the doubt because I never read that book and don't even know what the word "aprimanas" means, ha! But at the same time, I don't see how it's possible to be mean to someone and friendly to someone, at the same time, even if it's just in thought. It seems to me that if you are being mean, then you're not being friendly and if your being friendly, then you're not being mean. Is it possible to be both mean and friendly towards someone, at the same time?
What you say makes sense, seeker. Still as I have been taught these mindsets are special because they can go into any environment. So you *can* be very angry at someone but also let kindness for self and other into your mind. If you think about it you can have metta in mind at the same time as hatred or rage. Seems to me anyhow.
I look down on snobs... and speaking of the flipflops/thong intenational thing, ask someone in Australia where you can get a fannypack and see what kind of reaction you get.
The aprimanas are: metta (also called maitri), karuna, mudita, and equanimity..
They are already here in our heart. So it is not about the 'other' it is just a quality that permeates and is not dependent on getting something out of the relationship or any certain arrangement. It comes more easily when we are calm.
In english they are: kindness, compassion, joy with others, and equanimity. I think you are already familiar, just they are called aprimanas in Tibetan Buddhism.
Most of our problems are concerned with interpersonal relations. To address these, we can direct our view to the teachings on the four highest emotions. These are called in Pali the brahmaviharas; or four divine abodes. They are loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity.
If we had only these four emotions at our disposal, we would have paradise on earth. Unfortunately that's not how it is, and so we rarely experience any paradisiacal feelings. Most of the time we torment ourselves with difficulties in the family, in our circle of friends, and on the job. Our mind constantly tells us about all the things that don't suit it; and it usually fingers the guilty party, the person who's bothering us, who doesn't want things the way we want them. But let's remember: whenever somebody else says or does something, it's a matter of his or her karma alone. Only a negative reaction on our side creates our own karma.
Just a real life example right now I have psychotic voices bullying me. But I follow the five precepts and am largely blameless. So I have these four permeating the same mind that has the psychotic voices. Believe me, I appreciate these four!
Comments
I mean, when a dog is behaving poorly you ignore it and reward its good behavior with attention. Eventually it learns that the poor behavior won't get it any attention and it stops exhibiting that behavior. Same with children, or so I'm told.
I think the same principle applies to thoughts. You don't give them any energy from your attention and eventually they just starve.
In order to be able to ignore them in the first place you have to be aware of them. As far as I understand it, that awareness is the only prerequisite to change. I would guess that as long as you're aware of it, what you do next (either pay attention or ignore) is of little consequence.
I am working on changing it but I feel it will take a while.
Didn't mean to come off so harshly with that last post or to target you Bunks, or anyone else in particular....
I was just trying to get the idea across that it should be within our aspirations to not only acknowledge that we *all* can and do fall into the trap of snobbery and snobbish judgment about others from time to time, but to take that acknowledgment and in turn (try to) train our minds away from such thoughts, and not just say;
"Oh well, I know it's snobbish, I know it's wrong, but I don't care, it's just how I feel/think/am..."
Well, anyway, here nor there, right?
I just want to apologize if I came off as particularly bitchy ... I've not had a very good day dealing with people today.
But it has little to do with anyone here or this topic.
I'm just sliding into a " Holy shit- I reeeeally hate people, right now" mood.... but I didn't mean to take it out on anyone here. Sorry.
Hope your day gets better.
:thumbsup:
. . . it is me . . .
Being a snob or [insert state of being] has a trigger and a cause.
Triggers are always around us . . . the cause and cure is always with us . . . it is us
:dunce:
I guess we all knew that all along . . .
(Cockney rhyming slang: 'Cobbler's awls' = balls.)
I am a friend and helper to all,
I am sympathetic to all living beings.
I develop a mind full of love
and takes always delight in harmlessness.
I gladden my mind, fill it with joy,
and make it immovable and unshakable.
I develop the divine states of mind
not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha. 648-9
Mean thought and metta thought can not co-exist!
mean thought and metta can co-exist. That is why the aprimanas are immeasurable; they can exist anywhere including the hell-states. But they don't remove the kleshas/hell states they just hold the kleshas like a mother and babe. Sharon Salzburg makes this point early on in her book.
and speaking of the flipflops/thong intenational thing, ask someone in
Australia where you can get a fannypack and see what kind of reaction you get.
They are already here in our heart. So it is not about the 'other' it is just a quality that permeates and is not dependent on getting something out of the relationship or any certain arrangement. It comes more easily when we are calm.
In english they are: kindness, compassion, joy with others, and equanimity. I think you are already familiar, just they are called aprimanas in Tibetan Buddhism.
Here's an article by Ayya Khema I read recently: Just a real life example right now I have psychotic voices bullying me. But I follow the five precepts and am largely blameless. So I have these four permeating the same mind that has the psychotic voices. Believe me, I appreciate these four!