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But why is the path a difficult one?

I have been wondering lately why it is that seeing reality as it is requires such an arduous journey (8 fold path isnt a walk in the park).

I mean in itself - why is humanity born with suffering, with clouds (or thunderstorms) over their eyes, with a mind that one must work to bridle.

Is it simply a product of our evolutionary history and if so what did the buddha teach then - A technique to psychological subvert our mind's tendencies as a result of this history?

Comments

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Why?

    Why not?

    Same question, different day. If there were any answer, how informative or satisfying could it possibly be?

    Stick to your good practice ... and see what happens.
    JeffreyNirvana
  • ..........
    I mean in itself - why is humanity born with suffering, with clouds (or thunderstorms) over their eyes, with a mind that one must work to bridle.
    ..........

    I tend to put it down to dependent origination (or the law of karma) and this has helped me to stop asking "Why?" all this suffering and put more effort into "How?" to obtain release from dukkha. But that's just me.... you'll get much responses from others, i'm sure. Metta.
    Wisdom23
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Life without knowing the path is difficult, life with the path is difficult, life is difficult whichever path you take, but the Buddhist path hands you a few tools which over time can make it easier and more bearable, eventually maybe even liberating yourself from suffering itself.
    Jeffrey
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Humanity is "born" with suffering because we continue to having craving, Buddha taught that himself in the 2nd noble truth and noble eightfold path.

    Its a hard path simply because it is hard for us to see through our own ignorance... And that is something we can only gradually change so that means hard work.
    Jeffrey
  • Being conditioned for many years also does not help, you basically need to re-wire your brain lol. I have always considered it harder to have a mental workout than a physical one, that being said I am still quite an idle so and so!
    Light101
  • @Jayantha - this is what i am wondering about - can you elaborate more about how humanity is born with suffering because we continue to have craving.
  • i've been curious whether it is possible to gain enlightenment without enduring hardship like Milarepa. Or is it simply karma that we have to purify so we have to suffer in order to clean our crappy karma before we can progress? I am more familiar with the Tibetan tradition so there is a lot of emphasis on purification there (though i am not sure if other traditions don't focus on it). Any opinions welcome!
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    can you elaborate more about how humanity is born with suffering because we continue to have craving.
    I want, therefore I am... this is the sticking point. Nothing wrong with wanting something (a human being needs food and air and water, for example, so wanting goes with the territory), but imagining that such wants create who and what we are ... how realistic or peaceful is that?
  • I've been just reading about Milarepa, and I wonder the same thing @wisdombeing. To be honest, if we have to endure hardship to clean our karma it makes me feel better because the path is a struggle. so if i frame it as simply purification that helps.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran

    @Jayantha - this is what i am wondering about - can you elaborate more about how humanity is born with suffering because we continue to have craving.

    The buddha's talk on the four noble truths and the 12 links of dependent arising are the exact explanation for this..I could not explain it any better or different then the Buddha himself-
    ----------------------------
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.piya.html

    "The Noble Truth of Suffering (dukkha), monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering — in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.

    "The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: It is this craving (thirst) which produces re-becoming (rebirth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding fresh delight now here, and now there, namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation).

    "The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it.

    "The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the Noble Eightfold Path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.[2]

    -----------------------------

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

    Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you.

    "And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

    "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
    Bunks
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    A yogi friend of mine was told by his guru, 'It is a universal law, that there is no growth, without struggle'. Paradoxically, Buddhists trying to give up the desire to grow, find it is a struggle . . .
    In the Sufi tradition, the voluntary engagement in service/suffering is part of the Jihad (internal war).
    As I near the end of my struggles, nothing in life is more valuable than spiritual endeavour. Right effort. :clap:
  • Being conditioned for many years also does not help, you basically need to re-wire your brain...

    That is a good point. As physical beings our main purpose seems to be survival and propagation. Physical pain and desire are the primitive tools that motivate us to survive and propagate.

    In order to be free of dukka we need to understand and overcome what has actually brought us to this point where we have grown into an intelligent species that can participate in this very discussion over the Internet.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited January 2013
    charirama said:

    Being conditioned for many years also does not help, you basically need to re-wire your brain...

    That is a good point. As physical beings our main purpose seems to be survival and propagation. Physical pain and desire are the primitive tools that motivate us to survive and propagate.

    In order to be free of dukka we need to understand and overcome what has actually brought us to this point where we have grown into an intelligent species that can participate in this very discussion over the Internet.
    Getting back to the simplicity of living is one of the hardest things to do funnily enough, but yes due to being conditioned it is one factor that we face daily in our lives that has potential to hinder our progress.
  • It it wasn't difficult, then how would one learn the path?
  • JohnG said:

    It it wasn't difficult, then how would one learn the path?

    Truly.

    "Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge." -don Juan

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    It is only as difficult as you make it :)
    MaryAnne
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    it is difficult because it involves letting-go and removing the conditioning of the mind. since it goes against the flow of Samsara, so it raises a direct war with our defilements in our mind. in the end, either the path or defilements win. if defilements win, conditioning continues, so Samsara continues. if path wins, defilements are removed, unconditioning occurs and Awakening happens.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    I think we just make it that way out of habit.

    Once we wake up from our silliness, we have a good laugh at ourself.

    So I'm told, leastways... Guess we will see.

    Makes sense though as it seems the way of things and events we think are smaller... Looking for glasses that are on our heads (can't find them anywhere).
  • It's difficult because you are rewiring the way that you think and percieve the world. I'm 34 which means I have 34 years of conditioning and taking things for granted that I have to move past. It is hard, but many things that are worthwhile take effort. Just take it one step at a time.
    lobster
  • We can't clean our karma because it's endless.
  • @Jayantha, how can the six sense consciousness be gone? What did Buddha see without senses (including mental)?
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Any opinions welcome!
    Don't have opinions.
    Gain experience and knowledge.
    Thus did I hear . . . from 'Mr Cushion' . . . :D
  • I have been wondering lately why it is that seeing reality as it is requires such an arduous journey (8 fold path isnt a walk in the park).

    I mean in itself - why is humanity born with suffering, with clouds (or thunderstorms) over their eyes, with a mind that one must work to bridle.

    Is it simply a product of our evolutionary history and if so what did the buddha teach then - A technique to psychological subvert our mind's tendencies as a result of this history?

    I am more hard up over the man who invented examinations. And the man who invented the atom bomb too.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    caz said:

    It is only as difficult as you make it :)

    A thousand indeeds.
    Don't make difficult.
    Don't make easy.

  • @HookahCaterpillar There's an interesting discussion on http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3019.0 also regarding this topic.
  • HHDL:says that the spiritual path is easy as long as we have no preferences.

    Which is a bit like saying brain surgery is easy if we're a brain surgeon.

    Jeffrey
  • JohnG said:

    It it wasn't difficult, then how would one learn the path?

    ya this is it exactly i'm beginning to think. its all necessary - every moment.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited February 2013
    We arrive as the ignorance that says we are separate expressions of existence.
    You either support that expression or you don't.
    Difficult or easy, are just the words that describe the strength of the attachments that we are, or are not, currently challenging.

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited February 2013



    I have been wondering lately why it is that seeing reality as it is requires such an arduous journey (8 fold path isnt a walk in the park).

    without seeing the reality (right view) we can not stop being becoming
    I mean in itself - why is humanity born with suffering, with clouds (or thunderstorms) over their eyes, with a mind that one must work to bridle.
    because of the very reason that they ended their last birth with Aversion which is one side of the craving (Thanha) coin


    Is it simply a product of our evolutionary history and if so what did the buddha teach then - A technique to psychological subvert our mind's tendencies as a result of this history?

    one step at a time
    try to see the reality with the help of Buddha's Teaching (which can be reached through modern day teachers)

    and

    then

    you will have answers to your own question
    or
    there will be no more questions but the practice to become perfect

    'being is Enlightenment and Becoming is ignorant'

    a nice and wise statement to remember
  • I have been wondering lately why it is that seeing reality as it is requires such an arduous journey (8 fold path isnt a walk in the park).

    I mean in itself - why is humanity born with suffering, with clouds (or thunderstorms) over their eyes, with a mind that one must work to bridle.

    Is it simply a product of our evolutionary history and if so what did the buddha teach then - A technique to psychological subvert our mind's tendencies as a result of this history?

    This is the question that only God can answer. Buddha, being a human could only experience the suffering and look for a way out. Or do you prefer to blame God for everything? And mope too as a result?
  • God? I think the Buddha knew more than any hypothetical God. As I understand him this clouded mind would be both the result of our evolutionary history and its cause, a feedback process that the Buddha shows us how investigate and overcome. Thus Lao Tsu writes, 'Knowing the ancient beginnings is the essence of Tao'.
    lobster
  • Florian said:

    God? I think the Buddha knew more than any hypothetical God. As I understand him this clouded mind would be both the result of our evolutionary history and its cause, a feedback process that the Buddha shows us how investigate and overcome. Thus Lao Tsu writes, 'Knowing the ancient beginnings is the essence of Tao'.

    Let Buddha answer then!
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Let Buddha answer then!
    Not quite there yet but I'll do my best. Kali yuga.
    People have too many distractions, thoughts, comfortable delusions of non-suffering or the hope that dukkha is temporary or the result of using the wrong toothpaste.

    They trust in Cod (hallowed be thy fish bones). Apple or other big companies, some temporary massage, message or time wastraling. Nobody but our own efforts will save us. Who wants to spend a lifetime in effort?
    :wave:
  • I think it only seems difficult based on our conditioned karmic perception, but in fact it is empty and in reality there is no path and we are already Buddhas that just need to not ignore reality and become fully aware of it.

    I think the true difficulty that is projected and perceived is our own mind's efforts resisting being fully awake.

    After all what is more difficult putting in work for a better existence or remaining in an existence of suffering.

    It reminds me of when some people ask me about working out and losing weight. They tell me "but it's so hard to eat right and workout everyday". Then I ask them what is harder? living the rest of your life unhealthy, sick and unhappy with your own body or going to the gym for an hour and not having that cupcake? We ignore the fact of how things really are and suffer for it, but all the while thinking we are more happy that way....avoiding difficulties.....lol kind of funny isn't it?
  • I've found that asking "Why?" is usually the wrong question.

    But on this subject, I would say that the path to awakening seems difficult at times because attachment to our past conditioning and karma has resulted in strong self delusion. Seeing this and learning to let go is not a trivial endeavor.

    However, all one needs (or can) awaken to is this present moment. So keep practicing.

    Best Wishes
  • I often wonder that myself in my periods of doubt.

    But the way I understand Buddha's teaching , a part of it is actually giving up the desire to figure such questions out. We are in trouble and the teaching is only about one thing- how to get us out. When the car breaks down and the tow truck comes, its driver does not spend time on trying to understand why the car broke down. It just did and his job is to take the car to the shop. Buddhism is like that tow truck :)
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