School life and buddhism

Cory

At school, my school at least, virtually all students always have something racist, biast, or just generally insulting to say. Although I don't talk much, when I do, it is normally to tell them that what they said was wrong. I know I am not supposed to let other peoples thoughts get to me, but for example: when they are joking around about the Holocaust, I feel that have to say something. Am I in the right? Or should I keep my thoughts to myself even though they are morally correct?

BhikkhuJayasara

who is to say what is morally correct? acting like the morals police will definitely not make things easier for you friend. Kids are kids and they are going to make comments and say stuff like that to test their limits and be cool for their friends. I remember in high school they made us go watch Schindler's list in the movies and there was plenty of jokes going around, I'd venture to say I probably even participated in one or two.

there are times where you should speak up, perhaps in defense of others, and other times where it's better to keep watch on your own thoughts and words and not worry about what others do and say.

as you get older you will realize that what people do and say is their own kamma, you cannot save or change others and putting them on the defensive is certainly not going to be helpful.

and also don't be hard on yourself, if you meditate and practice mindfulness you will know what to do because you are fully aware of the entirety of the situation.

Cory

Thank You for the insight, It definitely opened up a few things that I didn't think about. For instance "what people do and say is their own karma." I will definitely keep in my mind what you have said and take a moment to think about it when ever I have a situation such as what I have explained.

sova

think to turn spouts of mud to spouts of golden nectar

provide nectar

vinlyn

Jayantha has made some good points.

Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing."

I think the trick is to be able to decide when doing something will matter, versus when doing something will accomplish nothing.

karasti

Not everything that is uttered by a person represents how they truly think, feel or believe. It's is one of those things you learn through much experience-which battles to fight and which to let go.

caz

Kids can be very cruel at such an age they are not fully socialised.

Cory

This is the first time I've had a good influence in a while. ^_^

TheEccentric

Children can be very harsh, they like in most creatures nature can not tolerate what is different to them or respect that. In your situation as hard as it is you may have to ignore them or you may become there target but if they are actually Bullying someone directly you have to help.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

We all have to stick together against hatred and descrimination.

Dakini

Speaking up can be "right speech". In the situation you describe, imo it would be important to speak up in order to convey the message that racist opinions and behaviors are not acceptable. The Buddha said that "right speech" is speech that is factual/true, appropriate to the situation, and preferably, not abrasive. But speaking out in the face of wrong-doing, he said, was "right speech" if truthful, and spoken at the appropriate time. He implied it would be "wrong speech" to remain silent in the face of wrong-doing. This isn't an excuse to rant at people, though. Words should always be spoken mindfully.

I_AM_THAT

Mindfulness with Right Speech:

"Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates.

At the first gate, ask yourself,
'Is it True?'

At the second gate,
'Is it necessary?'

At the third gate,
'Is it Kind?'" - Sufi Saying

vinlyn

^

So saying, "Isn't that a lovely sunset" would be wrong speech since it is not necessary?

zombiegirl

I am 27 now and I still encounter this issue! For me, it feels as though if you DON'T say something to negate the discrimination being said, it's as though you are agreeing with them. Frequently, these comments are made in conversation as though the person already assumes I agree with them, so when I do not, I feel that I have to point that out.

Most racist/homophobic/anti-Semitic comments tend to be of the pointless ignorant sort, so I don't always feel like I have to have a long discussion debating point by point why I disagree. I find it works well enough to say, "Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree there." A lot of times people who say comments like these will suddenly backpedal when you shine a light on what they really just said. It's interesting. I think most people, especially kids, are just repeating what they hear. Even just disagreeing with them in a general way can make them think about what their words/views really mean. Most people know intrinsically that what they're saying is wrong, and most people wouldn't be saying it if they didn't think everyone around them was like-minded. Even just dissent can be radical enough, I think.

Cory

@Vinlyn We are discussing discrimination, not sunsets. I understand your logic, but it is off topic in this situation.

karasti

@vinlyn well, it could be, considering part of right speech is to abstain from idle chatter that lacks depth. Depends on why you are talking about the sunset, I guess, lol.

It's an interesting thing to consider, because I have a kid who has no filter in that way, and talks aloud ALL the time. Teaching him how to filter what comes out of his mouth is very difficult but we use Right Speech as part of the way we help to teach him.

I know the Sufi saying above, though I always run into trouble with the first question, because with a lot of topics, what I believe is true is not the same as what others believe. So when I stop to ask myself if it's true, half the time I never get past that question because I'm too busy considering whether what I believe is true, is going to be what others believe is true as well!

zombiegirl

I have read things on right speech that if I followed literally, I would ruin my income since being personable and friendly is very important to my job. So, for me, it's very middle path. We've all met those people who go on and on and belabor the point (actually, I think that might be me, shh!), so there is something to be said for the "Is it necessary?" question... but there's also something to be said for connecting to your fellow human beings. And sometimes, it's okay to talk about the sunset you're sharing, even though it doesn't need to be said.

karasti

Overall, I agree @zombiegirl. Middle way always, of course. You don't get a whole lot of choice in the world we live in. Though, I think overall if most of us didn't say like 50% of the things we think and do say, we'd have quite a more peaceful world. I "talk" like crazy on here. But in person I'm actually quiet reserved and quiet. I observe far more than I participate. I find that I absorb more of the world around me when I do that, as opposed to when I am talking more. It's easy to allow our internal storyline to become an external one, and often times that's not a good thing.

I_AM_THAT

To the OP... Become a beacon of light... let your controlled actions and words give direction... There is no need to argue but to only let it be known that you disagree. Give comfort and compassion to those being attacked.

"Fools, their wisdom weak, are their own enemies as they go through life, doing evil that bears bitter fruit." - Buddha

black_tea

Personally, I feel that it can be worth saying something. You do have to take into account the exact situation (is this a conversation you are overhearing that you are not involved in? are they speaking to you? are these comments being used to bully another person? -- are all things to take note of when considering how best to handle such a situation. I would advise against an angry outburst -- in my experience, people will listen better when you are behaving in a way that seems rational, and too much anger can provoke a nasty reaction.

The problem with never saying anything, is that the people making the comments then deem that it is acceptable to do so, which it is not. There are things in life that it is ok to disapprove of -- they are upsetting for a reason. What's important is that you don't hold onto anger. Remember that the people making the comments are fellow humans and as such are facing their own problems and confusion. This is easier said than done -- I have a very difficult time with this myself.

lobster

Am I in the right?

You are in the right. Is it right to express that? Think about what will alienate and what will educate. Be kind even to the bigoted, infantile and enlightened but z z z . . . . :wave:

Cory

@karasti I am the same way. I am a quiet person, but it hasn't been that way for very long. Since I stopped talking a lot, I have been quite a bit more peaceful. When I am silent, not just on the outside, It gives my soul time to catch up. I am not sure why it took me so long to realize that if I would be quiet my life would improve and I could purify my thoughts; Just being the silent observer allowed me a new perspective in life.

BhikkhuJayasara

vinlyn said:

^

So saying, "Isn't that a lovely sunset" would be wrong speech since it is not necessary?

Ajahn Brahm told a story related to this. That there was a master who would go on walks with his students and this one guy wanted to go on the walk very much, finally it was up to his turn and they watched a sunset in silence until the student said " wow what a beautiful sunset" the master then never took him out again because once he spoke, he took himself out of the present moment and attention went to the words, not the scene.

seems to me about 97% of what we all say on a daily basis is not really necessary. I've always not been too much of a talker except in various situations. even just passing people I prefer the head nod when people have to say " whats up, how are you" and you know they don't really want to know but they feel they have to say it. Head Nod = best.

Invincible_summer

"Words are very / unnecessary / they can only do harm..."




(And yes, I'm aware that a song about enjoying the silence is incredibly ironic)

vinlyn

^

So saying, "Isn't that a lovely sunset" would be wrong speech since it is not necessary?

Cory said:

@Vinlyn We are discussing discrimination, not sunsets. I understand your logic, but it is off topic in this situation.

Determining whether or not a post in the thread is simply a platitude or meaningful certainly is not off topic.

vinlyn

Jayantha said:

vinlyn said:

^

So saying, "Isn't that a lovely sunset" would be wrong speech since it is not necessary?

Ajahn Brahm told a story related to this. That there was a master who would go on walks with his students and this one guy wanted to go on the walk very much, finally it was up to his turn and they watched a sunset in silence until the student said " wow what a beautiful sunset" the master then never took him out again because once he spoke, he took himself out of the present moment and attention went to the words, not the scene.

seems to me about 97% of what we all say on a daily basis is not really necessary. I've always not been too much of a talker except in various situations. even just passing people I prefer the head nod when people have to say " whats up, how are you" and you know they don't really want to know but they feel they have to say it. Head Nod = best.

I think where I disagree with the text of what we are discussing, is that the question of is it or is it not necessary ignores the need to develop (for example) a sense of community, or interpersonal relationships, etc. I mean, frankly, there are a ton of unnecessary threads and posts on this forum. But such threads and posts often help develop a sense of cohesion in our group.

footiam

Cory said:

At school, my school at least, virtually all students always have something racist, biast, or just generally insulting to say. Although I don't talk much, when I do, it is normally to tell them that what they said was wrong. I know I am not supposed to let other peoples thoughts get to me, but for example: when they are joking around about the Holocaust, I feel that have to say something. Am I in the right? Or should I keep my thoughts to myself even though they are morally correct?

If you keep your morally correct to yourself, it would become extinct someday. Just like the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Tosh

I'm an ex soldier so many of my facebook friends are guys I served with. You want to see some of the stuff they stick up; if it's not racist or sexist, it'll be about tattoos or motorbikes.

But I know these guys have a heart and despite their 'macho words', they're softies on the inside. It's all show and bluster.

I know they know better, but our egos do like to put on a show.

trendybuddha

Sometimes being the moral police will make you exhausted, and only cause you pain. I am in the process of trying to find out which battles to fight and not. If I soak myself in reading about everything that is sexist, anti-islam, anti-semetic, racist and down right bullying I will just become grumpy, sad, and tired. And if I am grumpy, sad and tired how can I benefit people? You can however ask them to tone down the way they speak about these things around you, if they don't, maybe the best way is to take a theravada approach and just remove yourself from the situation for some time? All human-beings have a heart, I was in an enviorment where there were some very right-wing extremes who said racist things about islam, it hurt me so bad that I just had to remove myself from that enviorment. On the other hand I learned that I could actually really like and find good qualitites in these people. This made me more compassionate, but in the end of the day I chose to rather find some people who were more like me to play with .

lobster

reframing is a technique to enlarge and change the perspective


For example if you ask people what is good about a situation/problem they perceive.
For a mysoginist you might ask if there are any good women . . .
For a terminally Buddhist, you might ask what sort of rebirth they would prefer in a dharma free rebirth . . .
Opposition strengthens, redirecting uses the strength (knew that tai chi training had a lesson for me) . . .

Develop a skill set guys . . . Some of us live in the hell realms, where is the nirvana in that?
Why is the lotus sacred? Mud base, flowers atop . . .

:wave: