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What determines "unmindfulness"
blu3ree
Veteran
in Meditation
So during some zen focusing on breathing in and out while counting to 100 thoughts come and go. What is difficult for me to determine is whether or not my mind is "lost". Example 1-12 counts go by with good concentration no random thoughts arise just consciousness but then a thought pops up on 13 but it doesn't carry mindfulness awayonto a vortex that deepens dilusion it's simply noted. this is where i trip up do I continue counting or do I reset to 0?
0
Comments
Counting to hundred without any thought distractions is not likely for a beginner.
One way to look at it is that breath counting is only meant to provide a body/mind anchor from which to observe from. It just manifests a balanced reality that is neither exclusively mind oriented or body oriented.
It is meant to just keep one rooted in this present reality rather than sleepwalking off with the next thought. Do it just forcefully enough to remain conscious of it but not so forcefully that it dominates over your other arising sensory input.
Most of us seldom see where we leave mindfulness, only where & when we return to it.
To continue with your count or to return to the start should be your choice.
The best choice is to choose which ever one allows you to most directly reconnect to that body/mind anchor.
Do you find that counting to 100 can get a bit automatic? Like, do you find that you are suddenly up to 34 and you didn't notice the twenties?
If so, I find that counting 1 to 10 combats that, because if you get mesmerised you start counting 11 12... and then realise, "OH I was only going to ten".
Just my 2c.
I'd really recommend sticking counting to five or ten! 100 is too much! All the books I've read stick to five or ten at most, which is plenty to work with in trying to stay focused. I'm lucky just to get to five, and I understand that that's fairy normal for beginners (and by 'beginner,' I don't even just mean someone who has been doing it for six months).
When you lose focus on the breathing and counting, start back to one. The surest approach is to start with five as a short term goal. After you are truly comfortable with that in a fairly consistent manner, go up to ten. Once you are comfortable with that and consistent with it, then focus on just the breath without counting at all.
In Zen, it basically comes down to these few gradual steps:
(1) Counting functions as a 'scaffolding' to help concentrate on the breath.
(2) The breath functions as an anchor to help observe your thoughts come and go without chasing or resisting them--always come back to the breath in order to remain a detached observer of the thoughts that arise in the mind.
(3) With experience, observe thoughts pass without needing the anchor of the breath. It is only at this stage that it is zen meditation 'proper' - and this could take months if not years to feel comfortable with this. Think of this as a pond which reflects the surrounding mountains, trees, and sky - but the pond still has quite a few ripples.
(4) With thoughts dropping away more consistently, one focuses on the present, which is basically one-mind. Think of this as the pond which is still and reflects the mountains, trees, and sky, but the distinction between the pond and everything else is still visible.
(5) One goes from one-mind to no-mind in which there is no separation between 'oneself' and the 'environment.' Think of this as a pond so still that you cannot tell where the mountains, trees, and sky ends and where the pond's reflection begins - it is seamless mirror which clings to nothing. This is expressed beautiful by this couplet in the Zenrin Kushu: I've been re-reading Sheng Yen's book Song of Mind which I highly recommend. Sheng Yen goes into more detail about zen (chan) meditation and all the pitfalls to avoid in meditation and the book is very very very very VERY useful.
Counting to 100 is a mistake. Count to 10 and begin again. Any student who can count to 10 honestly will not need to practice something called "Buddhism," whether in breath-counting or any other format.
Breath-counting is sometimes called a practice for beginners. I disagree. Doing anything -- including breath-counting -- whole-heartedly is enough. Yes, breath-counting appears to be a support to begin with ... a means of reining in and calming thoughts. Sometimes it is seen as a means of chastising and fidget-y mind ... bad dog! get back here! OK ... we all could use some help and breath-counting can be called a help.
But once the help has been offered and received ... now what?
1....2....3....4....
Or not.
@genkaku I was told to count to 100 by my teacher it was also during kyollche though.
@riverflow i can never really finish any books I start reading right now I have zen and the art of insight. I'm more of a picture book kind of guy to where I look at pictures and try to decipher them. I'll start just being mindful without counting unless my mind is restless.
Thanks all!
But I suspect that this is because I am also a "counter." I randomly find myself counting, or counting things during the day, and have for many, many years. So my brain is used to hearing me spew out numbers throughout the day and pays them no attention. If that makes any sense, lol.
I do totally agree that for most people 100 is way too lofty of a goal to start with, and by the time you might be able to get that far, you shouldn't need to count at all.
I didn't specify the Zen form (mine) because it didn't sound like your form.
The best answers to your questions will come with your exploration of the difference between concentration and meditation.
I count all day at work, so I found it not very effective for
my sitting.
Visualization got me thru 3 natural childbirths, so I stuck
with what I knew and was good at, and until someone else
has that experience, it would be hard to convince me I'm doing it 'wrong'.
I 'see'/notice the empty space between the thoughts. Being in
that space until the next thought pops up.
Over the years, the space in between has gotton longer
and longer, it also helps me to 'see' the thoughts go
by ...like cars passing. The traffic varies. I then am able to
focus on sitting on the road, and ignore the
passing cars and all the details about them.
For meditation in the fashion above I would rejoice each time you come back from being stuck in a thought realm. Focus on the positive. The negative will just make you feel bad about yourself and spawn even more prapancha. Then we are like punching at tar and getting more and more stuck.