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Age and Wisdom

As we were younger we were always told and made to believe that age = wisdom, such as the archetype of the "old wise man" and they we must always obey our elders because they are much more wise. I can understand that as you become older you understand more about the world and the way it works, but does this make you more wise? A small unconditioned child feels unconditional love, the absence of fear (besides of course original fear such as survival and being born), peace with nature and every other being, and a strong connection to spirit. Are these not the absolute essentials and basically description of a wise being. If these aspects were cultivated and nurtured through-out their entire lives they would only yet to gain more wisdom.

But with the way children have been and are being conditioned in current society i feel like (obviously and of course not the case with all, especially many spiritual people) the "old wise man" is leaps and bounds less wise as he or she was when they entered this world.
Dandelion

Comments

  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Sounds something like Wilber's Pre/Trans fallacy to me.

    Nevertheless, it's still true that there's no fool like an old fool.

    Bitterness and uncontrolled appetitites can do a lot to hold people back from progress along the path of wisdom. Actually, love is the Key, for Wisdom and Love come together on the same wavelength. In much the same way as both heat and light come together in the same Sunray, so come this Love/Wisdomness (Warmth/Wisdomray).

    The infant (or animal in nature) seems to exude both of these qualities in such a natural, full way that we may be deceived. That's what Wilber's Pre/Trans fallacy addresses.

    Are we bitter about something in our lives? Let it go! Else it will get in the way of our true spiritual goal. Bitterness gets in the way of our communication with others and breaks down the channels of communication. When that happens, we are adrift. If we nurture a hurt within ourselves, the cradle of loving consciousness is coverered with the embers of resentment and we smolder rather than come afire.

    lobsterSabbyDandelion
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Young children do exude those qualities, but if they don't even understand those qualities are there, are they really wise? The wise ones would be the parents and elders of the child who recognize it and teach the child how to grasp and hold onto those qualities instead of allow society to eat away at them. It is possible to do so, at least to some degree. But those elders of the children need to be open to those children being teachers and leaders for them as well, and too many people believe children are their property, theirs to control and direct as oppose to listen to and guide.
    Sabbylobster
  • SabbySabby Explorer
    @Nirvana @karasti

    Amazing comments, thankyou
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Elevating the wisdom of either children or their elders strikes me as fatuous and self-serving generalization. Everyone's got something to learn.
    Sabbyriverflow
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    edited March 2013
    We all need to recognize that experience builds memories. True, eh?

    Ok.... Experiences good and bad, if contemplated to see what they are in truth, can yield some wisdom. Not all, for man cannot possibly become a god to be worshiped while alive.
    Sabby
  • SabbySabby Explorer
    I think there are a few quotes out there that go along the lines of "We come into this world as a child, and again, must leave as a child" - something of that sort.

    All the lessons we learn through our life are of value, so that they can be contemplated until we once again can return to the light-heartednessness of a child

    @Karasti
    karasti said:

    Young children do exude those qualities, but if they don't even understand those qualities are there, are they really wise?

    But, I feel it is a different understanding. An elder person will understand more at an intellectual level, whereas a child would understand with their heart.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I have a young child currently, and have had them in the past (16, 10 and 4) and while they certainly operate out of a different place, because they haven't developed the intellectual side of themselves they don't understand what they are even doing. My 4 year old makes random awesome comments, he equally makes comments like "I just farted and it smells like hotdogs." Anyhow, I lack the words to properly say what I mean right now. I understand what you are saying and getting at, but I'm not sure I would consider it wise, not for every child anyhow. But I also wouldn't say every elderly person is wise, either. Just having lived a long time does not equate a ton of life experience for everyone. Having lived a very short time also does not mean one has not experienced a lot.

    You often hear that children who are very sick exude a sense of wisdom that the rest of us lack. I think that is true. I think when you experience so much for a little kid, you become wise in areas the rest of us never experience. I also think kids are much more inclined to natural compassion than adults are. But it's not as if you have to trade that in as you get older. They can be taught to hang onto all those qualities.
  • You can't really make generalizations about things like wisdom, because some people will have more of it than others no matter their age. I think there is a lot that can be learned from children, they can remind us of important aspects of ourselves that we may have forgotten as we have gotten older. But, that's different from the kind of knowledge that comes from experience, and you're more likely to get that from someone who has been around longer and done more. That doesn't mean that all older people have good advice, but it is something to take into consideration.
  • How would you assess whether a child's love is unconditioned? Is that true? To me it seems very conditioned based upon getting needs met.
    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I think it depends on the age. Kids will love a parent to a fault, though, when they are young. I wouldn't count infants in that, but kids, oh, 2 and up to around 10 or so, depending on the kid of course. No matter how many promises their dad broke, no matter how much he did not take care of them, they thought he was the best person on the planet. It didn't matter that their dad didn't meet even their most basic needs. He was their dad and they loved him and wanted to be with him no matter how much harm he caused them. Most kids are the same.
    Jeffrey
  • Still I would make a distinction between the unconditioned love of an arhat and that of a child.
    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Well yes, I didn't realize we were comparing the 2.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2013
    @karasti, I was positing contrary to the OP that a child is ignorant rather than wise. Not having any of my own children I wasn't sure. I do remember how hard it was to wait 5 minutes when I was young. So not sure how many children could meditate!
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I was in a hurry to make dinner and didn't really say what I meant. It came off a bit bratty, lol. I only meant that definitely, I agree that there is a big difference there between a child and an arhat.
    Kids differ a lot. It depends on how they are raised, too. Kids raised in typical American homes have more problems sitting still because they aren't taught to. Because there are too many choices, too many distractions and they are never taught how...because their parents aren't taught how. They can be taught though and a lot of kids do better behavior wise if they are given time to themselves and learn how to recognize the need for it. My 4 year old meditates with me. He will sit for a bit, though it's taken a long time to get there. But in the past few years as a family we've decided to have more quiet time, less distraction. When we first put it in, it was really difficult for everyone, we were all climbing the walls. But as we settled into it, we all look forward to it now. Anyhow, kids can most certainly learn how to be quiet and how to meditate :) It's just not standard for our country. I did read where a representative (I think) in another state had put meditation into some schools with really good results. I can't remember the details, I'll see if I can find it.
    JeffreySabby
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/july-20-2012/mindfulness-goes-mainstream/11881/

    It goes into a bit of detail about his history, it's an interesting story, then it goes into the bit about the kids in schools. The younger kids start, the less time they might be able to sit at first (like all of us, lol) but they get a lot of out it.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    I agree that there is a big difference there between a child and an arhat.
    Realizing what to say and why?

    Kids say wise thing but when did an arhat last ask you, 'why can't I put my head in a microwave'.
    Even adults have more sense.
    An adult who has digested their experience becomes wise. Most of us are in a condition of indigestion.

    The arhat has the spontaneity of the child, the digested wisdom of the adult and the experience open to all Gnostics.
    :wave:
    JeffreykarastiSabby
  • Thich Nhat Hanh's community Plum Village has some children participate in a meditation where they mindfully count small pebbles and acknowledge when there is a stack at the end that they have mindfully collected a stack of pebbles showing from the stack at the end what they have done.

    So yeah, that's exciting karasti to hear how your family has brought more relaxing rather than distractions. Even recently in my meditation I found it positive to say 'let me relax' rather than 'let go into space'... the different words just did it differently for me. I imagine your kids are learning to find the peace within their minds rather than just constant stimulus. Cool.
    lobsterSabby
  • Sabby said:

    As we were younger we were always told and made to believe that age = wisdom, such as the archetype of the "old wise man" and they we must always obey our elders because they are much more wise. I can understand that as you become older you understand more about the world and the way it works, but does this make you more wise? A small unconditioned child feels unconditional love, the absence of fear (besides of course original fear such as survival and being born), peace with nature and every other being, and a strong connection to spirit. Are these not the absolute essentials and basically description of a wise being. If these aspects were cultivated and nurtured through-out their entire lives they would only yet to gain more wisdom.

    But with the way children have been and are being conditioned in current society i feel like (obviously and of course not the case with all, especially many spiritual people) the "old wise man" is leaps and bounds less wise as he or she was when they entered this world.

    You have a point. In ancient time, you must remember some people were told the earth is flat and the sun and other planets rotate round it. What we were told may not be right. That's why Buddha said not to accept without investigating.
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