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What use are unenlightened teachers?

lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
in Buddhism Basics
When I was using puppy Linux, I came across the term 'dogfooding', it means you should be able to prove the veracity of your product by using it.

Now as you may have discerned there are those teaching the way to the far shore like a bald man selling hair restorer . . .
If it ain't working for you, what on earth are you advising?

Good behaviour is a good example, peace and calm - very nice too. Leading a Middle Way life, excellent, well done. Exploring the nature of mind, hurrah.
However . . .
Why is it impolite to ask the questions regarding the elephant in the room? What am I missing? Do we have the inner discernment? Do we go by reputation and assumption?

Maybe we prefer to play games? - me Guru, you Jain. :buck:
Invincible_summer

Comments

  • nenkohainenkohai Veteran
    Wow... what an awkward convo that'd be, huh? It would seem to me that if you'd feel compelled to ask that question, something is already up. Take the hint, ya know?
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Its very simple.

    There is no attainment and that is what is attained conventionally speaking.

    So if you ask a buddha show me your buddha nature. The Buddha will just laugh at you because the asking of the question is so absurd.

    Do you think that there is something beyond the idea of "buddha"?

    Sentient beings conceive of this or that. The Buddha doesn't conceive in anything at all.
    chelaInvincible_summerlobster
  • chelachela Veteran
    Great question. @taiyaki what exactly does it mean to conceive or to not conceive, in terms of an enlightened teacher? It is a bit of a paradox to me-- how can a teacher teach anything without conveying conceived ideas? Or is it that they only teach conceived ideas because that is how we unenlightened lay-people learn? But if that is so, then how can they (enlightened Buddhas) even conceive ideas to convey, since thinking in these terms is contrary to being enlightened? Oh, the torture of my mind!
    lobster
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    The world is projection as form and concept arise together. Without form you have no concept. Without concept you have no form.

    If we conceive an enlightened teacher as such then they appear to be enlightened. If we conceive an unenlightened teacher as such then they appear to be unenlightened. It is completely karmic in how we project/interpret and at the same time the perception is no separate from the idea.

    Understanding that will make the jaw drop and it will make many people go no you're wrong because I believe in "my" "subjective" inner experience that relates to the "objective" experience out there.

    Conventionally speaking there is a teacher who teaches us the dharma. Ultimately speaking there is no teacher, no dharma, and nothing taught, nothing to attain, etc.

    But what use is that talk of the heart sutra? Will this motivate sentient beings?

    Sentient beings are tormented by suffering that is like a bubble floating down a stream. Or like a rainbow appearing in the sky. They believe themselves and the object to be real or having an essence, because of this they follow their craving and aversion and suffer. The antidote is the path and by seeing that suffering is void, they attain liberation.

    But liberation isn't something attained or lost. It is intrinsic to everything, thus called buddha nature.

    So imagine being a buddha. You're free because there wasn't anyone to be free or in bondage. And you look around. Oh people suffering because they believe the exist, substantially exist. What arises? Great compassion.

    Such compassion arises to teach the dharma and help those sentient beings.

    But where is all that. Clap your hands. That is your answer.
    lobster
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Yes we must learn the knack of polishing mirrors and make them tiles.
    lobster
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    I'd view unenlightened teachers like a scribbled map that someone gave us to give us directions to a certain location. It's far from perfect, it's sort of difficult to read, and might not give you the exact directions that you want. But, with some of your own effort, you can get to the destination quite alright.

    An enlightened teacher could be like an official map of the area. It's neat and you can see clearly where to go, but you still need to use effort to get there. But it's not going to be a turn-by-turn GPS system, because a wise teacher won't hold your hand to the destination.
    lobster
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited April 2013
    What use?
    Have you ever learned anything from anyone who wasn't enlightened?

    Personally, I don't think I really believe in enlightenment of that sort. I don't think you can ever put that particular signature next to anyone's name so that FOR EVER AND EVER MORE this person will know all. I think that enlightenment is more of a mountain to climb... two steps forward, one step back sometimes... then maybe it's five steps forward, one step back... and maybe eventually you find that it's been a long time since you've regressed... but does that mean that you're incapable of doing so? I don't really think so.

    But, of course, what the heck do I know? I'm certainly not enlightened... ;)

    But for practical examples, I have gained a lot of insight from Chogyam Trungpa. But, um, I don't think he was enlightened for obvious reasons.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    If someone is "further along the path" than you are, they don't necessarily need to be "enlightened" to be a good teacher to you, IMO. Why? Because they are further along the path than you are. :)

    Also, there very well may be people, who are not necessarily enlightened yet, but understand the path of where to travel to, quite well, but are still in the process of traveling it themselves. The fact that they have not reached the end of the path yet, does not necessarily mean they don't know where they are going.

    JeffreylobsterInvincible_summerchela
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2013
    No, we don't go by reputation and assumption. We check out the teacher's reputation, including, as the DL has said, "spying on the teacher"; checking out the gossip. Unfortunately, the only way this can be done if nothing is found online, is to go to Dharamsala and hang out in the teahouses, and keep an ear to the ground.

    So, barring that option, we observe the teacher's behavior over time.

    Also, we decide what exactly we need from a given teacher. For example, some of them don't claim to be enlightened. Some are just Joe Geshe (or Bob Roshi), who got the equivalent of an advanced degree in Buddhist studies, and they teach literally by the book. They all have a copy of the basic texts and the commentaries, and that's what they present. It's fine for an introductory class, as long as there's no funny business going on on the side, no distractions. If all you need is Buddhism 101, almost any teacher will do, any teacher who keeps his hands and body to himself and adheres to the standard norms of behavior. Those basic requirements are good enough, up to a point.
    lobster
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited April 2013
    An unenlightened teacher can draw a map of Buddhism, but an enlightened teacher can show you where you are on the map and show you exactly which steps you should take next.
    lobsterInvincible_summer
  • swaydamswaydam Veteran
    edited April 2013
    I remembering reading a sutra somewhere actually that talks about different kinds of aspirants (sorry I don't remember the name of the sutra). One type was one who is good at teaching the Dharma, another who was good at practicing the Dharma, etc. I think there were maybe 4 types?

    An enlightened teacher is definitely preferable though. But even an enlightened teacher will not necessarily have the right teaching for you, as each path is unique, and what worked for him/her might not work for you.
    Invincible_summerchela
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    @lobster -- For my money, there is no way to discern an enlightened being without being enlightened yourself. And the same goes for whatever it means to be unenlightened.

    This is not to say there are not more and less helpful circumstances and people out there. You makes your choice and takes your chances. Some people/circumstances rub you the wrong way ... so, avoid them if you think that is warranted. Never mind enlightened and unenlightened. Just practice.

    I dislike citing text, but in the Dhammapada I've got (approximately remembered), there is a nice summing up of a number of things.

    1. If you find no equal or better in life,
    Go alone.
    Loneliness is preferable to the company
    Of fools.

    2. Better your own Dharma,
    However weak,
    Than the Dharma of another,
    However noble.

    3. It is not what others do and do not do
    That is my concern.
    It is what I do and do not do --
    That is my concern.
    Invincible_summerchelalobster
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Is there such a thing as an enlightened teacher? If there is, he's probably hiding out in a cave or in the back room of a monastery somewhere, or in the forest. He's not the subject of glossy PR, doing a tour of the Western Dharma circuit.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    There is a Sufi saying, that the teacher is the one who provides what we need, not what we want. Most of us of course, want to play teachers and disciples, might not be what we need . . .

    In the discipline of the unannounced or private Buddhas, we are sometimes in the good company of the realised, working on our salvation/enlightenment without our conscious acknowledgement
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddha

    Thanks Praty eka guys, you're the best :clap:
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