Giving Money... what should I feel?

nenkohai

So, as part of my dharma-practice, I've started sticking money in an envelope, leaving it in the car, and then give the envelope to the next person I see at an intersection begging/asking/entreating. I think there was maybe $60 in the envelope I gave to the lady (I call her "sister") this morning.

Immediately after I handed that off to her, I started considering what it is I should feel regarding giving her that money. I felt compassion toward the lady. And hope. I started to get a little "warm-fuzzy" from knowing I helped her. But, something, from somewhere, kicked in and reminded me that the action is not about me. That rolled around in my head for awhile... giving her that is NOT about me. Its about her.

So, I'm asking for help in digesting this. It seems to me that the Buddhist response does not included the "self-warm-fuzzies." But I don't know. What is the mind-set/mind-condition one should have in giving money to someone in need? Karma (mine) should be immaterial, should it not?

Something feels weird.

vinlyn

This reminds me very much of a situation I found myself in many years ago in Thailand. I was there in Bangkok for about 7 weeks, and each day when I would cross the street via a walkover-bridge I would see this boy of about 13 -- the same age of the students in the school were I was an administrator in America -- silently begging. His handicap was that one side of his face was that hugely swollen red birth defect (I have no idea what it is called). In the States, the kid would still be in school, but in Thailand his life is going to pretty much be begging. Each day when I would walk across I would give him a few coins. But on my last day I gave him the equivalency of about $12. Probably the biggest "gift" he had ever received, and he prostrated himself before me and kissed my shoes.

I was feeling pretty good about myself until later and thought -- big deal. About what I spend each week on a music CD. Did I stop and talk with him? No. Did I even shake his hand? No. I felt pretty deflated later, and not feeling very good about myself at all.

Sabre

I wouldn't over think it. If you get a happy feeling from it, that's good. Also, I'm happy you did it, and that's not coming from a sense of "I". Sharing is nice, and good to be happy about.

Even if sharing does involve some sense of getting something out of it, it's nothing wrong to do and still much better than not sharing. So no need to worry. I think the weird feeling is just your confusion. Next time, don't think, just feel. Then you can never go wrong.

Just watch that you don't get into some sort of "look at me being the good guy" kind of state.

MaryAnne

Whatever feelings you got, let them come- let them go. There is no reason to feel guilty or ashamed because something you did to help another made you 'feel good'.
Let the feeling come- let the feeling go. No clinging, no wallowing - Naturally, without effort.

Maybe that woman will be shocked at how much money there is in that envelope, turn around and share with others who are just as down and out as she is. Maybe not. But hey, I choose to think of things from a positive POV.

ThailandTom

It is not what you should feel but how you should deal with the feelings that arise, mainly not clinging to them. It would be great if you could be indifferent to the act but that is quite difficult.

Invincible_summer

I'm not well-read enough on the suttas to know what the Buddha himself or his disciples said about this. But I know that Dogen stated that compassion should be "like reaching for a pillow in the night." In other words, completely natural, without thought or conception of what you just did.

blu3ree

Dont pluck the fruits of action let them be.

The mind should be comfortable and content, which will be easier sustained through good actions.

Maybe try giving her healthy food an water next time.

fivebells

Come on, it's totally about you, and that's fine. You gave because you knew it would lead to a pleasant mind-state. There's nothing wrong with that, it's insightful and harmless.

Invincible_summer

fivebells said:

Come on, it's totally about you, and that's fine. You gave because you knew it would lead to a pleasant mind-state. There's nothing wrong with that, it's insightful and harmless.

I'm assuming that if it was a skillful act and had good intentions, it's okay to pursue pleasant mind-states? Just don't be a jerk about it, that type of thing?

zombiegirl

My understanding is just that you shouldn't pity them. Pity suggests that you are somehow better than them and is a feeling to be avoided. Sometimes easier said than done.

This is dumb, but... this reminds me of an episode of Friends where Phoebe tries to commit a truly selfless deed. In the end, she realizes that attempting to commit a selfless deed for her own ego-driven reasons makes it self-ish, haha. But in the end is also the point... does it matter? At one point, maybe it will be like "reaching for a pillow in the night" (I like that analogy @Invincible_summer ), but until then, just keep doing what you're doing and stop worrying about it.

nenkohai

you know what? I really like you people!

Good words... all of them.

Lee82

Why is it that you give the money to random people like that rather than a more organised charity? You have no idea what that money is to be spent on and it could be completely wasted. I spent a lot of time looking in to charities a few months ago because I wanted to give to those less fortunate than I and I settled on two particular ones that I am sympathetic to their causes and now support regularly.

Nobody outside of this forum would know that I give to charity. You're right, it's not about you it's about them. You could certainly feel inwardly that you're doing a good thing, knowing that you're helping people that need help, but don't do it for self gratification, do it because of the compassion you feel towards those you helping.

zombiegirl

Just wondering, when do you put money in this envelope? What is your saving process like?

MaryAnne

Lee82 said:

Why is it that you give the money to random people like that rather than a more organised charity? You have no idea what that money is to be spent on and it could be completely wasted...

Edited for space.

@Lee82

Did you miss the huge discussion that took place a little while back about giving to beggars, etc? Lots of comments mentioned the charity organization vs individual thing, (also about the money being "wasted" or not and how to let go of that control)....

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/18003/is-it-ethical-to-give-money-to-beggars/p1

Invincible_summer

@fivebells - Sorry, I thought I posted more in my previous post, but it didn't show up for some reason.

You say that it's fine to pursue pleasant mind-states as it's insightful and harmless. Do you mean in this particular context (where the action and intention were wholesome) it's okay, or in general?

It just seems to me that if one constantly pursues pleasant mind-states, then it's more or less self-gratification.

Lee82 said:

Why is it that you give the money to random people like that rather than a more organised charity? You have no idea what that money is to be spent on and it could be completely wasted. I spent a lot of time looking in to charities a few months ago because I wanted to give to those less fortunate than I and I settled on two particular ones that I am sympathetic to their causes and now support regularly.

Nobody outside of this forum would know that I give to charity. You're right, it's not about you it's about them. You could certainly feel inwardly that you're doing a good thing, knowing that you're helping people that need help, but don't do it for self gratification, do it because of the compassion you feel towards those you helping.

@Lee82 - I believe there was a thread on this topic recently. Many posters discussed whether it's more skillful to give money or necessities (e.g. clothes and food) to homeless people.

Some argue that it's their karma to spend the money in their own way and that we shouldn't care how our money is being used - after it exchanges hands, it's not ours to worry about any longer.

Others argue that giving money to someone who is most likely going to spend it on something like booze or drugs is unskillful because it feeds their suffering.

All in all, it's a very tricky issue to navigate.

Lee82

MaryAnne said:

Lee82 said:

Why is it that you give the money to random people like that rather than a more organised charity? You have no idea what that money is to be spent on and it could be completely wasted...

Edited for space.

@Lee82

Did you miss the huge discussion that took place a little while back about giving to beggars, etc? Lots of comments mentioned the charity organization vs individual thing....

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/18003/is-it-ethical-to-give-money-to-beggars/p1

Yeah I must have missed that, will have a read now. Thanks.

federica

When I give money to someone who needs it, I tell myself that that's how much I 'owe' them.
They had it coming, it was due.
So I 'owed' them that money.
it might not be much, but at least I'm not in their 'debt any more.

karasti

I think it's fine to feel good about doing good deeds. As long as you aren't doing the good deeds just to make yourself feel good with no intention towards helping the people.

nenkohai

Lee, I've given to charity organizations in the past. For me, its time to do this for awhile.

zombiegirl, the savings mechanism? Once or twice a week, I look in my wallet, and say, "I'm not gonna need that..." That money would otherwise translate into a number of coffees (is coffee an intoxicant in the context of the 8FP? LOL! I wonder!) and a couple lunches at work (I need to lose weight anyway). I see my "sister" once every few weeks. Last I saw her was three weeks ago... so it added up. But, overall, it is nothing formal, other than just "keep something in the envelope!"

karasti, yea. Intention is everything.

lobster

you know what? I really like you people!

Good words... all of them.

Karma already kicking in . . .
Displaying generosity.

Putting words in a posting for us beggars is the same practice. Giving a smile. A kind word. We all start somewhere . . .

:clap:

fivebells

Invincible_summer said:

You say that it's fine to pursue pleasant mind-states as it's insightful and harmless. Do you mean in this particular context (where the action and intention were wholesome) it's okay, or in general?

It just seems to me that if one constantly pursues pleasant mind-states, then it's more or less self-gratification.

It depends on whether you're pursuing short- or long-term pleasure. If your actions in pursuit of pleasure are ultimately harmful or not to anyone's benefit, it's short-term. The particular action of giving is insightful because it demonstrates an interest in personal long-term pleasure. I didn't mean that seeking pleasure in general is insightful or harmless. Most of the time, just the opposite.

Jeffrey

It's natural to experience emotions. Of course we are going to feel good when we commit acts that the cause/effect is to feel good. Buddhism is not detachment in the sense of indifference. So we can have an emotion during our lives. In your case it could even be resentment. But there is no 'right' or 'wrong' feeling. They all come. To try to lock down or dampen our feelings such as the warm fuzzy does not work because it is in denial of the our nature as a being who has feelings.

I think you are second guessing yourself and you need to take a more simple mindset "I gave money and expected to feel x". Not shoulda shoulda shoulda. What's done is done. Let it go. Of course let your mind think the whole jumble, don't resist that, but just remember it is just a jumble of thoughts; it is mirror wisdom mixed with difficult emotions. Every moment is fresh and new.

lamaramadingdong

Do it until you feel like Oskar Schindler.

lobster

More envelopes or their equivalent. Less pontificating. In a sense give away your generosity . . .
:clap:

zombiegirl

nenkohai said:

(is coffee an intoxicant in the context of the 8FP? LOL! I wonder!)

Coffee contains caffeine, but then again, so does tea. I will say in my case, yes, coffee probably is considered an intoxicant because I know I am attached to it. I have to drink it every morning or I get headaches... but... I'm not particularly bothered by it because in the grand scheme of things, it's not too harmful. I have one cup a day (not like what you hear some people drink) and I told myself years ago that if I quit smoking, I could still have my coffee... lol. I also quit getting drunk and I would say that alcohol is definitely worse for the body than a little caffeine. Maybe someday I'll quit... but that day is not today. I simply don't want to yet.

nenkohai

a follow-up - gave an envelope to a "brother" this morning. He seemed so worn. Had a single leg; crutches; had an orange juice carton tied around his neck in which to put money.

My feeling tone about it? It was good, but different than last week. My sense was that "Dharma had been served."

karmablues

I'd like to point out that the Buddha recommends recollection on our generosity (Caganussati) as a meditative practice.

1) According to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, the purpose of this meditation is to "induce a sense of confidence in one's own worthiness to follow the practice" and he also refers to the texts as saying that the joy and confidence induced by this meditation practice can bring the mind to concentration and cleanse it of defilement.

2) Pls also note this passage from the Buddha's teachings:

"Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect your own generosity: 'It is a gain, a great gain for me, that — among people overcome with the stain of possessiveness — I live at home, my awareness cleansed of the stain of possessiveness, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting generosity, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on generosity. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed senses pleasure. In one sensing pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.
Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of generosity while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children."

3) You can find a brief guide on how to practice this type of meditation here:
phapchan.net/2013/01/recollecting-our-goodness.html

Vastmind

nenkohai said:

"Dharma had been served."

Quote of the week.
I'll be using that one.

footiam

nenkohai said:

So, as part of my dharma-practice, I've started sticking money in an envelope, leaving it in the car, and then give the envelope to the next person I see at an intersection begging/asking/entreating. I think there was maybe $60 in the envelope I gave to the lady (I call her "sister") this morning.

Immediately after I handed that off to her, I started considering what it is I should feel regarding giving her that money. I felt compassion toward the lady. And hope. I started to get a little "warm-fuzzy" from knowing I helped her. But, something, from somewhere, kicked in and reminded me that the action is not about me. That rolled around in my head for awhile... giving her that is NOT about me. Its about her.

So, I'm asking for help in digesting this. It seems to me that the Buddhist response does not included the "self-warm-fuzzies." But I don't know. What is the mind-set/mind-condition one should have in giving money to someone in need? Karma (mine) should be immaterial, should it not?

Something feels weird.

People here say there is a Chinese proverb that says if you give someone fish, he will eat for a day but if you teach him to fish, he will eat for life. Perhaps, you are giving those people a fish to eat. And that is despite the person deserving the fish or would have fish for lunch and not something else. Anyway, I do think it is fine if you are happy with it.