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Hero worship
In Abrahamic traditions, it is explained away as idolatry. If God does not occupy our center, then another object will take its place and become our new (and false) god.
How is it explained in Buddhist psychology? Most people, even on this 'enlightened' forum, love celebrity wisdom and quote them all the time - of course, they'd ignore that wisdom if it came from the common man. It is therefore evident that people, even so-called buddhists, indulge in hero worship (although when confronted they'd say they just admire them, trying to learn from them, etc.).
What's the buddhist take on this? Is there something equivalent to idolatry?
How is it explained in Buddhist psychology? Most people, even on this 'enlightened' forum, love celebrity wisdom and quote them all the time - of course, they'd ignore that wisdom if it came from the common man. It is therefore evident that people, even so-called buddhists, indulge in hero worship (although when confronted they'd say they just admire them, trying to learn from them, etc.).
What's the buddhist take on this? Is there something equivalent to idolatry?
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Comments
If thats idolatory I dont care. If that is hero worship thats fine by me.
And if you @music don't approve, I dont give a shit.
_/\_
And most others as well.
@music - what's the point of this (yet more) papañca...?
He tells this story to anyone ( like me ) who he thinks is projecting too much..
Every one can be my teacher and I stay open to this possibility every single day. It proves useful. I think majority of people here do. We all posses similar qualities, have similar problems, delusions etc. we are in it together so... other people are just mirror images of ourselves and every time we disagree with this fact, we just perpetuate the illusion of "self".
I don't really think it serves any purpose to look for analogies in Buddhism. Worship is a really strong word, I don't like how it sounds and I think it belongs more to where it comes from - Abrahamic religions. Thou shalt not worship false idols, thou shalt have no other gods... you are either on our team... or completely wrong therefore can burn in hell you heathen.
What is this center of ours that is occupied, anyways? The guru is in you, in me, in everyone.
Much love to you (to me, to everyone)!
The problem is that we lack epistemological humility--we actually think words can contain truth is some fixed way: as if understanding the truth were merely a matter of believing it, agreeing with an ideology. Buddhism contains sets of doctrines to be used in order to understand Buddhist doctrines as methods rather than as a truth to which one merely assents: the Two Relevances, the Four Standards of Truth, and the Four Reliances.
These doctrines point to the SKILLFUL use of all Buddhist doctrines as a means to awakening which depend on the person, the circumstance, the issues being addressed, etc. In the end, there is nothing to cling to, even non-attachment, but this has to be done step by step. That's the meaning behind the old Zen saying, "If you see the Buddha beside the side of the road, kill him!" The very clinging to Buddhist doctrines as a truth to be believed in is the very thing that ultimately stands between oneself and awakening to suchness. In other words, one cannot KNOW their way to nirvana. Otherwise their would be no need for practice. Just read a couple books, agree with their contents and there! problem solved!
Or, in the words of the Muslim mystic an-Niffari, "Fixed knowledge is fixed ignorance" and "The letter does not enter presence. The people of presence pass by the letter. They do not stay." (from The Book of Standings).
What happens at its most extreme clinging to doctrines is absolute is the inability to address another human being as a human being--one cuts themselves off because the ideology has more value than life itself--which is WHY extremists are able to murder "in the name of _____." (fill in the blank with any god or ideology taken as an absolute)
But these are extreme cases. It happens on smaller scales every day also: If, for example, one says that gay people are somehow inferior, wrong or evil, often with the support of an ideology to which they fervently cling, they can go so far as to even shun their own children. Their child is no longer able to be addressed as "you" because the abstract ideology outweighs the life of their own child! Ironically, their "god" IS an "idol" to which their child is, in a certain sense, sacrificed. (having been in the Church of Christ many years ago, I am well acquainted with this sort of thing)
Unless someone were to kill or sacrifice a relationship or refuse to address another human being as a human being for the sake of some person, so-called "hero worship" is the least of my concerns. There are traits of some figures I like, but they certainly had their blind spots to--there is no manichean purity (purely good or evil) to be found in anyone. It is immature to expect it to be otherwise.
Off the top of my head, people I do admire greatly would be Thich Nhat Hanh, Seneca, Eckhart, Spinoza, Josquin Desprez, Bach, Socrates, Diogenes, Thomas Paine, Thoreau, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, MLK, Hannah Arendt, Thomas Merton, Dorothy Day, Carl Sagan... As long as I am not saying "If you don't like Thoreau, well then screw you!" I don't think there is a real concern...
Which as upaya-kaushalya is quite OK with me.
The thinking is we are all shit heads, so why not fill up on good liberating shit . . .
The reason to idealise and venerate the three jewels is not due to greater merit but greater skilful entanglement.
There are heroic and inspiring Buddhas, reformers and internal potentials. It is people who have made the greatest movement that are inspiring.
A Sufi son of a beggar was asked about his years of training with his Sufi Instructor. Was the training difficult for someone with such lowly origins to a refined, enlightened status? The Sufi acknowledged that much training, learning and effort was required.
'However', said the Sufi, 'there was one whose hardship was much greater than mine, for the change required was far greater. . .'
What sort of person was this, his audience wished to know. Perhaps a heretic or murderer?
'He was a former king', the Sufi explained.
:wave:
Perhaps wisdom is free floating and does what it wants.
Perhaps wisdom is Citta-ing and poptart-ing. And Gandhi-ing and Beyonce-ing.
I AM a worldly people...what is the alternative ? A Martian ? A plaster saint ?
1
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
2
Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.
3
Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrow-mindedness.
The closest to worship is perhaps some Islamic ideas that Muhammad represents a perfected individual and therefore his sayings or Hadith are used as a secondary source of dharma.
Allah is split into 100 attributes. The 100th attribute is only known by camels. I did know a camel that wanted to share but I did not speak camel at the time . . . :wave:
I am totally behind riverflow's last post...
But even then the 'perfect' refers to natural perfection... or the 'as is' state.
and 'human' refers to a metaphoric view of the entire race past, present and future.
In that sense, the prophet was considered a naturally manifested representation of the natural perfection of all humanity - this esoteric doctrine is the basis of enunciation of all occult masters.
the peripheral viewpoint suggests that your own existance is secondary to something else
the source viewpoint suggests that you are the center, and existance eminates from you.
but what is the middle way?
And of course, in turn you are projecting that mind-set and judgment on most or all of us, based on what -- Nothing more than some comments and posts here in this forum, and the traditions or monks some of us adhere to and quote from. Seriously.....??
How is it you don't expect anyone to get a little offended with that negative projection of yours.... Why not stick to critiquing yourself instead of others?
Oh, that's right, you're above all that stuff; you're just once again letting us know what you observe about US. Thank you.
:coffee:
I don't know that I worship anyone/anything. It never felt right to me. Of course there are people I look up to and admire, whether that is idolizing, I don't know. Perhaps it is. My dad is at the top of my list. So is my autistic son. Common men in the sense that they are not famous or celebrity. But truly common, not so much.
That might sound strange for a lot of folk, but at a simple level, I denied I was an alcoholic for many years because I was not like the (false) concept of an alcoholic I had in my head; I mean I wasn't in the gutter screaming abuse at passing buses; so my concept (my idolatry) of what an alcoholic was like concealed the truth from me that I was indeed an alkie.
So, I think that idolatry is not worshipping concepts (believing them to be the ultimate truth) and that Buddhism just explains that concepts are illusory, and that the idea is to see beyond the illusion.
That's my spin on it anyway!
Ex. Feeding the poor
All of our motivations return this truth..
Idolatry, like any attachment, is a search for a way
back to becoming reconnected to that innate love,
and the Buddhist version of cosmic truth
says that it was all a dream of our own making.
Zen calls this dream..the self.
losing it is Zen's way home..
The closest to worship is perhaps some Islamic ideas that Muhammad represents a perfected individual and therefore his sayings or Hadith are used as a secondary source of dharma.
Allah is split into 100 attributes. The 100th attribute is only known by camels. I did know a camel that wanted to share but I did not speak camel at the time . . . :wave:
There's a big difference between what people claim and the reality. Just try to publish a cartoon of Muhammad and a cartoon of a President and see which one brings death threats. Of course they worship him. If they didn't worship him, they would have no excuse to kill in his name.
I'm not saying they think he's God. Hero worship isn't about claiming someone is God. It's treating someone as elevated above the rest of humanity and thus privilaged.
I'm not saying they think he's God. Hero worship isn't about claiming someone is God. It's treating someone as elevated above the rest of humanity and thus privilaged.
It is called attachment. People are attached to their moms, for instance, and even a mild-mannered person may become violent when he hears bad things about his mom. Doesn't mean he worships his mother - he may even quarrel with her, may not even visit her often. But the attachment will turn him violent.
Also, your post is just like dripping with passive-aggressiveness. Did you intend it?