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Sutra Club: Food Sutta

Sutra Club: Food Sutta

Welcome to this week's Sutra Club. We're discussing SN46.51, the Ahara Sutta. The nest of links below are offered in the hope they will be useful, but there is no required reading for participation in this thread! In the comments, feel free to ignore the rest of this post if it doesn't speak to you.

I learned of this sutta through Thanissaro Bhikku's book Wings to Awakening, which has had an enormous positive impact on my meditation practice over the last ten months or so. My comments on the Food Sutta will be mostly owing to Thanissaro's perspective, though I am responsible for any inadequacies.

After the Mindfulness of Breathing and Four Foundations of Mindfulness suttas, this is the sutta in which I have found the most practical advice. Close study and experimentation with the advice in this sutta can pay huge dividends.

The Food Sutta gives advice about ways to stabilize, sharpen and gladden the mind for concentration and insight practice. It organizes this advice around the five hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth/torpor, anxiety/restlessness, doubt/uncertainty), and the seven factors of awakening (mindfulness, analysis of qualities, persistence, concentration, rapture, serenity and equanimity), giving a little gloss on how to enhance and degrade each of these qualities.

The sutta speaks of "feeding" and "starving" the hindrances and and factors of awakening. As Thanissaro points out in his essay on the Food Sutta, this is not an idle metaphor:

The image of feeding and starving here is directly related to the insight into conditionality that formed the essential message of the Buddha's Awakening. In fact, when he introduced the topic of conditionality to young novices, he illustrated it with the act of feeding: All beings, he said, subsist on food. If their existence depends on eating, then it ends when they are deprived of food. Applying this analogy to the problem of suffering leads to the conclusion that if suffering depends on conditions, it can be brought to an end by starving it of its conditions.

This essay also gives a useful summary of the Food Sutta's recommendations for dealing with the five hindrances:

  1. Sensual desire is fed by inappropriate attention to the theme of beauty and starved by appropriate attention to the theme of unattractiveness. In other words, to starve sensual desire you turn your attention from the beautiful aspects of the desired object and focus instead on its unattractive side.
  2. Ill will is fed by inappropriate attention to the theme of irritation and starved by appropriate attention to the mental release through good will, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity. In other words, you turn your attention from the irritating features that spark ill will and focus instead on how much more freedom the mind experiences when it can cultivate these sublime attitudes as its inner home.
  3. Sloth and torpor are fed by inappropriate attention to feelings of boredom, drowsiness, and sluggishness. It's starved by appropriate attention to any present potential for energy or effort.
  4. Restlessness and anxiety are fed by inappropriate attention to any lack of stillness in the mind, and starved by appropriate attention to any mental stillness that is present. In other words, both potentials can be present at any time. It's simply a matter of how to ferret out, appreciate, and encourage the moments or areas of stillness.
  5. Uncertainty is fed by inappropriate attention to topics that are abstract and conjectural, and starved by appropriate attention to skillful and unskillful qualities in the mind. In other words, instead of focusing on issues that can't be resolved by observing the present, you focus on an issue that can: which mental qualities result in harm for the mind, and which ones don't.

In short, each hindrance is starved by shifting both the focus and the quality of your attention.

I've been finding the recommendation of stillness for restlessness and anxiety particularly helpful. The meditation described starting at minute 22 of this talk has some useful advice about opening to stillness/space in different aspects of experience.

The recommendations of the Food Sutta for developing the factors of awakening are a little vague in places, so here are some links to clarifying commentary in the sutta's and Wings to Awakening.

Definition of the factors of awakening. In particular, paragraph [4] shows that rapture means the rapture of the first three jhanas. This means that one of the "mental qualities that act as a foothold for rapture as a factor for Awakening" is concentration itself. See also SN 45.8: "rapture & pleasure born of concentration." Delight is another foothold for rapture:

He should then direct his mind to any inspiring theme. As his mind is directed to any inspiring theme, delight arises within him. In one who feels delight, rapture arises.

SN 52.1 indicates that mindfulness is a food for equanimity as a factor for awakening. The passage immediately after that is relevant, too.

MN 62 describes how to consider the five elements as food for equanimity. The passage immediately after is relevant too.

SN 46.53 describes which factors of awakening should be developed when.

SN 12.23 lists some prerequisites for the development of each factor of awakening.

riverflowlobsterVastmindInvincible_summerJasonpegembarazombiegirlkarmabluesDaltheJigsawFullCircleFleaMarket

Comments

  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited May 2013
    I've got no deep thoughts on it, but it reminds me of this nice little one:

    From inappropriate attention
    you're being chewed by your thoughts.
    Relinquishing what's inappropriate,
    contemplate
    appropriately.


    Keeping your mind on the Teacher,
    the Dhamma, the Sangha, your virtues,
    you will arrive at
    joy,
    rapture,
    pleasure without doubt.

    Then, saturated
    with joy,
    you will put an end
    to suffering & stress.
    AN 9.11
    riverflow
  • Thanks, James, that's a good one.

    Anyone want to talk about their struggles in meditation with illwill, torpor, sensual desire, anxiety, boredom, doubt, low self-esteem, etc.?

    Anyone want to talk about their efforts to develop mindfulness, discernment, conviction, concentration, rapture, serenity, equanimity, etc. in meditation.

    Personally, having done hell-realm (anger) contemplations for a year, it was a revelation to me that you could mitigate tendencies to anger and hostility by developing metta in meditation.
  • Hi, @seeker242. Great to meet another fan of the sutta. I agree, the steering wheel is critical. In terms of the factors of awakening, the steering wheel is the first factor, mindfulness, the ability to keep something in mind.

    What are people's experiences with regard to practices, beliefs and attitudes which foster or degrade mindfulness? Thanissaro says in his translation that the food for development of mindfulness is "well-purified virtue and views made straight," which aren't huge considerations in most modern books on mindfulness.

    One thing I've found useful when my mind keeps wandering is to say to myself, "If I were to remain alive even for the next ten breaths [or whatever duration] to put the Buddha's teachings into practice, even that would be of tremendous benefit." I find this greatly reduces my mind's wandering.
    Invincible_summer
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Nice sutta. MN19 and MN20 are also good suttas containing instructions of meditation.

    I find the moving away from, or around, hindrances often quite natural as soon as I recognize the hindrance. For me it has been a bigger challenge to actually recognize hindrances. This is a job of mindfulness, to see them when they are still small, but also of right view; to see wholesome and unwholesome, not to mistake something that is actually a hindrance for something that is not. This is a practice in it's own right. Because if we really knew the hindrances, I think enlightenment would be a breeze. Which quite obviously, it's not.

    For example, the initial idea I had of 'ill will' was way too coarse for what the Buddha was actually pointing at. Same for the other hindrances. The mind can be so tricky and attachments can be so subtle, I find it's quite amazing actually. For example, a mantra "buddho" or "in, out" or whatever, can be a tool at first, but a hindrance of restlessness later on. Practicing metta when anger arises is a good tool, but on a subtle level can arise out of aversion to anger.. a hindrance again. In many other ways can hindrances give rise to others, but also trying to get around hindrances can give rise to other hindrances.

    Focusing on the breath is a tool also, but can become a hindrance of "sense attachment" as well, I found. Breath is a tool for me to build stillness and non-movement of mind. The breath can fade out, leaving only the stillness, but the mind can easily cling to the breath. This still happens to me often and I think to many others as well, because it is quite a scary thing to not notice anything but stillness. There, in that stillness, it is where the hindrances are really being unraveled in my experience, and deeper understanding of them arose. Quite funny how you understand things once you start to abandon them.
    pegembaraInvincible_summer
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited May 2013
    fivebells said:

    Thanissaro says in his translation that the food for development of mindfulness is "well-purified virtue and views made straight," which aren't huge considerations in most modern books on mindfulness.

    I think "views made straight" here means our correct understanding about the benefits of virtue and mindfulness. The more we realize the importance of maintaining virtuous conduct, the more mindful we will become. And the more we realize how beneficial mindfulness is, the more effort we will devote towards being mindful.

    I suppose we can also see it in the whole picture as when we first have the correct view that we should refrain from unwholesome conduct, then we begin to develop virtue. In order to develop virtue, we will see the need to have mindfulness so that we can be aware of our actions and thoughts, scrutinize them and refrain from those which are unwholesome. This will lead us to put more effort into developing mindfulness. So in this way, the practice of developing virtue causes us to develop mindfulness, and the more mindfulness develops the more virtuous our actions become which in turn promotes greater mindfulness, so they kind of work in a spiral reinforcing each other but perhaps the starting point is having correct views and developing virtue.

    In the words of Ajahn Chah: "[Sila, samadhi, panna] must be practised together, for if any are lacking, the practice will not develop correctly. The more your sila (virtue) improves, the firmer the mind becomes. The firmer the mind is, the bolder panna (wisdom) becomes and so on ... each part of the practice supporting and enhancing all the others."
    Invincible_summer
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Anyone want to talk about their struggles in meditation with illwill, torpor, sensual desire, anxiety, boredom, doubt, low self-esteem, etc.?
    For some people, this and worse may be the whole of their arisings.

    Torpor was induced in me by a lama I used to meditate with. There was nothing I could do at the time except meditate elsewhere. If it happens now, I have a nap and then meditate.

    Difficult arisings always have a quality of urgency/agitation/irritation. In essence dukkha.

    I go through the body, check the breath and watch the show . . .
    Anyone want to talk about their efforts to develop mindfulness, discernment, conviction, concentration, rapture, serenity, equanimity, etc. in meditation.
    I don't really make much effort anymore. Just sit. Que Sera Sera.
    Sabre
  • Lazy_eyeLazy_eye Veteran
    edited May 2013
    I'm also a big fan of this sutta. It's very practical.

    Due to work and family, I've had (sometimes lengthy) intervals where I didn't have time to meditate. At those times, my Buddhist practice mostly consists of keeping an eye on mind states that arise during the day. Ill-will is probably the most common (irritation at work, stress during the commute, kids squabbling and driving me nuts, etc), but the others make regular appearances as well.

    So although this sutta is designed for meditators, I also find it useful for the daily work of maintaining good sila.

    On the cushion, restlessness and sloth seem to be the biggest obstacles for me.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Sabre said:

    MN19 and MN20 are also good suttas containing instructions of meditation.

    Yes, these had a big impact on me, as well, particularly MN 20.
    "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice would use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out a large one; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme, he should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
    Sabre said:

    I find the moving away from, or around, hindrances often quite natural as soon as I recognize the hindrance.

    I wish this was easier for me. I still make bad decisions as a result of the hindrances, even knowing that a hindrance is running the show. Just have to practice more...

    @karmablues, I agree. Virtue is critical, and unskillful behavior (anything which leads to drama, basically) makes mindfulness much harder to maintain.
    lobster said:

    I don't really make much effort anymore. Just sit. Que Sera Sera.

    I wish I was advanced enough to do this. :)
  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran
    I found the sutta, and indeed the others I have read thus far, repetitive and verbose. Why is that? A more succinct text could give the same teaching in just a few words and I feel the need to pick out the key words and write them down so they don't get lost.

    I preferred to read the Avarana Sutta which speaks of the same hindrances or obstacles, in fewer words, whilst also giving a great representation of the hindrances like channels branching from a river.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    fivebells said:



    I wish this was easier for me. I still make bad decisions as a result of the hindrances, even knowing that a hindrance is running the show. Just have to practice more...

    What helps is seeing hindrances just as hindrances. Not as a hindrance 'you' have to take. In that sense the word hindrance can be a bit misleading. That way to overcome a hindrance and to allow it to be become the same thing. But admittedly it isn't always easy for me, either.
  • @Lee82, they're repetitive because they were not recorded in writing at the time the Buddha taught them. They were transmitted verbally, and people needed to memorize them. The repetitive structure is believed to have helped the memorization.

    The food sutta is more complex because it contains more technical information about how to meditate.
    Invincible_summerkarmablues
  • @Sabre, the big two for me are ill-will and anxiety. Ill-will ties into defense mechanisms which spin up very quickly and quietly, and anxiety causes destructive physiological responses (stomach pain and jaw clenching.) The first is hard to see in time, and the second is hard to just allow to be because of the damage it is causing.
    person
  • I'm curious about how people's meditation practices develop and involve 'analysis of qualities' as a factor for awakening:
    Any time one examines, investigates, & scrutinizes internal qualities with discernment, that is analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening. And any time one examines, investigates, & scrutinizes external qualities with discernment, that too is analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening. Thus this forms the definition of 'analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening...'

    SN 46.52

    Lately for me this has been examination of the world-view ("becoming") that underlies the experience of the present moment, particularly when it's not the breath-based world-view of the early jhanas or the foundations-of-mindfulness/insight-based world-view. E.g., a daydream about a potential conflict, and the craving for compassion and respect underlying it.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Regarding "analysis of qualities," when I notice my mind wandering, I try to recognize what kind of thought that my mind was wandering towards, and label it in a way that would be conducive to practice (e.g. "sleepiness - unhelpful" or "relaxed - helpful") and such. I'm not sure if that's "correct" though.
  • Sounds right to me! :)
    Invincible_summer
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2013
    What role does serenity play in your practice?

    The sutta says that the food for serenity is appropriate attention to serenity, and lack of food is inappropriate attention to it. ("Serenity NOW!!!!")

    ...appropriate attention means asking the proper questions about phenomena, regarding them not in terms of self/other or being/non-being, but in terms of the four noble truths. In other words, instead of asking "Do I exist? Don't I exist? What am I?" one asks about an experience, "Is this stress? The origination of stress? The cessation of stress? The path leading to the cessation of stress?" Because each of these categories entails a duty, the answer to these questions determines a course of action: stress should be comprehended, its origination abandoned, its cessation realized, and the path to its cessation developed.

    In other words, when serenity arises, you notice that (third noble truth), and ideally you study the causes and conditions which led to it to develop skill in fostering it (fourth noble truth.)

    For me, the most reliable condition for the arising of serenity is attention to stillness. Attending to the space I perceive the objects the objects around me to occupy, the silence which noise is arising from, the stillness which the motions of the body and mind are arising from. I got these perceptions from the meditation starting at minute 22 of this talk. They relate closely to the perceptions which 5th jhana (dimension of infinite space) are based on.
    Jeffrey
  • What does the factor of persistance look like in your practice? Are you good at sticking to your objectives? Does this dualistic, goal-oriented formulation bother you? What do you think of Thanissaro's attitude in this passage?

    All this comes under right effort, realizing when you have skillful states, realizing when you have unskillful states, and being determined that once an unskillful state has arisen you're not going to feed it, you're not going to follow along with it. Some people have problems with this, especially with the issue of struggling or effort or having a goal. The problem, though, doesn't lie with effort or goals in and of themselves. It lies with your attitude toward them. You need to have a healthy attitude toward this struggle. You need to have a healthy attitude toward the effort, toward the goal, because the goal is what gives you a direction in life. Without goals, life would just be floundering around, like fish flopping around in a puddle.

    A Good Dose of Medicine

    Jeffrey
  • Today I found a series of talks about the seven factors of awakening. Here's the one on serenity. It's quite good. I transcribed the first few paragraphs:

    Take some good long deep in and out breaths. Get a sense of what kind
    of breath energy your body needs right now. If you're feeling tired,
    you may need some energizing breath: long in, short out seems to help
    that way, or whatever way of breathing you find that gives more energy
    to the body. If you're feeling tense, try to breathe in a way that's
    more relaxing. Short in, long out can help. Or whatever way you find
    helps to calm the body down, calm the mind down, helps to give rise to a
    sense of serenity and ease. This quality of serenity is one of the
    factors of awakening. Cause you remember there are two sides to the
    factors of awakening, those that are energizing and those that are
    calming, and serenity is the first of the calming factors.

    You can develop it in two ways. In fact, you want both kinds of
    serenity, i.e. bodily serenity and mental serenity. [For] bodily
    serenity, you work with the breath.
    Remember the Buddha's [anapanasati]
    instructions, and once you're aware of long breathing, short breathing,
    try to make yourself aware of the whole body and then notice the effect
    that it's having on the body, and try to make that effect more serene,
    make it more refined. Try to breathe in a way that's gentle to the
    body. This helps to calm things down within the body, [helps] the
    different processes calm down. Whatever tightness you may feel here or
    there within the body, think of it dissolving away. If there's a sense
    that the breahting is going to require a lot of effort, just your remind
    yourself, the breath is going to come in and out on its own, there are
    pores all over your body. You don't have to pull it in or push it out,
    the breath will come in naturally, come out naturally. Any perception
    you can hold in mind which helps to make the breath easier, experiment
    to see what way of picturing the breath helps to make the process of
    breathing more serene.

    At the same time, you want to develop mental serenity as well: Calm the
    mind down. This also has to do with your perceptions, but it's more
    perceptions of how things are in your life. Any perception that allows
    you to let things go at least for the time being, let go of your
    concerns for your work, family, the world at large, you can't be
    responsible for everybody, you've gotta have time for yourself.
    Then
    realize that the world will probably run perfectly fine without you.
    You're going to have to let it go some day anyhow, so practice letting
    go now.

    So in this way you make the body more serene and the mind more serene at
    the same time. These are qualities that help give rise to
    concentration, and the way of making the mind more serene is to develop
    the brahmaviharas, the sublime attitudes: immeasurable goodwill,
    immeasurable compassion, immeasurable empathetic joy, immeasurable
    equanimity. These thoughts are soothing to the mind, but in the
    beginning you have to work through them.
    You ask yourself is there
    anybody out there you cannot feel goodwill for. And certain faces will
    probably appear in your mind, and you have to remind yourself, nobody
    benefits from seeing those people suffer. And often if they suffer
    they're going to come back and they'll be more veangeful. So it's not
    going to help the world in any way at all, to wish [that] they suffer,
    to wish them illwill. The same with compassion...

  • SabreSabre Veteran
    Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it sounds to me like Ven. Thanissaro's teachings of meditations include having quite an active attitude. When this arises, you do that, when that arises, you do this. I'm not saying I think that's incorrect, but in my experience, the act of 'doing' is itself a hindrance. Helpful when hindrances are coarse and the mind is running around, but when the mind gets relaxed a bit, being actively involved mainly disturbs my mind. Think about the analogy of the sand that settles in a cup of water. If you keep moving the cup around, the water never settles.

    So my attitude towards meditation is to let go, to simply "be" instead of "do". Just to be with the present moment. This includes having no goal, because once you have a goal, it's something outside of the present moment . I find that when you are really in the present moment, by it's very nature, the mind becomes still and happiness arises.
  • Hi, @Sabre. You're correct, he calls for an active approach to meditation, a lot of the time. And it's true that any kind of "doing," even the doings most conducive to awakening, are defilements because the end result of the practice is freedom from all fabrication.

    Different meditations are appropriate for different circumstances. If the mind is already very still, then "simply being" can be the right approach to ending fabrication. Most circumstances call for more active approaches, though. Most people who try to "simply be" are actually fabricating a being which is "simply being." Suffering arises, and they relate to it as something not to react to and something to simply observe. They have become the non-reactor and the observer, and they struggle to maintain this state, and this is suffering.

    For relatively tractable and harmless forms of suffering, simply observing without reaction is often enough to release the suffering, so the unreacting observer is a relatively skillful position ("becoming," in the dependent origination sense) to adopt. As skillful as it is, though it's still a becoming. And other forms of suffering require more active involvement to take them apart , and it's not just coarse forms. Even very subtle suffering can require this. The key issue is 1) how strong the attraction/aversion/greed related to the suffering is, because if it's too strong observation without reaction won't even arise as an option, and 2) how destructive the suffering is, because if it's truly harmful it's irresponsible to tolerate it in the name of observation without reaction.

    For instance, as you imply, the "doings" which are conducive to a refined meditative state like the jhanas can become an object of attachment, and a sensual desire to attain the state can develop. At that point, the appropriate approach is some form of insight meditation to take apart the attachment. Simply observing without reacting could leave you stuck for a long time, because the mind will "naturally" incline to that refined state.

    There's also the issue of bringing the fruits of meditation into daily life. Most everyday behaviors can't occur effectively without some form of personal identification (becoming) which is very different from observation without reaction. So if you want to live a normal life and bring meditation into it, actively shaping more skillful becomings is really the only way to go, and to do that well you need to develop the tools this sutta is pointing to.
    Invincible_summer
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited May 2013
    I think all doing stands in the way of deep meditation. Because if there is doing, there is a movement in the mind and it is not one pointed, not at ease. So being actively engaged in meditation may sometimes be useful, but in the end for me it always comes down to letting go. Just to be with the breath, let the rest be in the background. Because hindrances big or small, obvious or subtle, deeply ingrained or at the surface, they all disappear with just being in the present moment. If we are in the present, what hindrances could possibly be?

    Sense desire is a desire for exiting things outside of this moment. Aversion is not accepting how things are. Restlessness is getting involved with the moment. Dullness is often caused by a mind that has been too active. Doubt is wanting to know, not just being with whatever is. So every hindrance goes away if we are able to just observe the present moment.

    I post this not because it's very related to the sutta, but because I think it is actually the attachments to doing and interfering that keeps many people from attaining calm states of mind. Yes, an active engagement can be useful, but I find it important to emphasize that it's just a tool towards letting go. Because letting go or "not doing" are non-attachment, which is what leads to non-suffering.

    In the calmest states of mind I have experienced, there was no thought, no control, there was no "me", let alone me "doing" anything. Then when the mind is still and peaceful, it sees deeply and insights happen without having to go after it.

    But true, in the end we also need to let go of the `observing position´, or call it consciousness.
    Invincible_summerpegembara
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @fivebells, I think that is why my teacher emphasizes to notice the quality of awareness, space, where you don't have to do anything with it. On the in breath we don't do anything in my sangha. On the outbreath we notice thoughts as thoughts while noticing the space and relaxing into that space. This is also the method of Trungpa and Pema Chodron essentially. But noticing space steers someone to link in with the natural qualities of mind which are already fine and we don't have to pump them up. Rigdzin Shikpo talks about 'hot boredom' where you are thinking of all the things you could be doing and shifting around trying to 'get' or grasp something to give that 'good feeling'. Later that fades to cool boredom where you see the mountain stream is fine as it is without being something else. I think this is where I am with mixed hot and cold boredom. It's also a self sealing meditation which is not dangerous because it will just build patience and forbearance if you are not prepared for insight. Of course nyams can come and those can be interesting. Nyams are powerful experiences of openness etc, but they are just experiences they are not the actual qualities of mind, openness etc, they are just experiences.
    pegembara
  • @Sabre, I appreciate you bringing this up, and I think it's highly relevant to the sutta. I agree, "doing" is not one-pointed, not at ease. However, the argument that "... they all disappear with just being in the present moment. If we are in the present, what hindrances could possibly be?" is circular reasoning. The reason the Buddha makes these recommendations regarding the hindrances is that they keep you from "just being in the present moment."

    E.g., You want something, and thoughts about it keep taking attention away from the present moment. How are you going to mitigate this issue? The sutta suggests attending to the unattractive aspects of the thing you want.

    We're all trying to get to that still, peaceful place you're talking about, but the path there is rarely via simply deciding to let things settle down by themselves. If it works, great, but as the sutta shows, it is a technically limited and inflexible approach.

    In the same way, the factors for awakening are all there in that still quiet space, and you can often develop them by "just being in the present moment," but not always. This was happening to me just today with anger getting in the way of serenity. The 'observer' was there, and I was attending to the constituent sensations construed as anger, but it wasn't going away, and I was able to mitigate that by attending to stillness. I've tried the "just being in the present moment" approach with this kind of anger before (practiced that way for years), and it hasn't worked for me. The active, fabricating approaches of metta and attending to stillness have.

    Overall, instructions like the food sutta leave you with a much richer and more flexible approach to meditation than "just being in the present moment," and they've afforded my practice much more resiliency when the demands of everyday life have leaned up against it.
    karmabluesInvincible_summer
  • @Jeffrey, if it works for you, great!
  • Do you find uncertainty disturbs or otherwise hinders your meditation practice? If so, what are you uncertain about and how do you deal with it?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @fivebells, are you asking me?
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2013
    No, just trying to stoke the conversation here. Any contribution from you is welcome, of course. :)
    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I find that at some times I am kind of blanked out and my conditioning is to look for something to be a focus. The blanked feeling is low energy and I have a feeling of not knowing. My response is to trust that feeling and really try to let go. It can get blissful. And then sometimes restlessness manifests after that dull feeling and I will think about doing something else instead of meditating.
  • Hmm, what about uncertainty about what's arising in practice, whether the practice is worthwhile, or questions about things like the nature of self or reality?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2013
    For me it is uncertainty about what 'space' means which 'space' is a word in the context of my sangha. I was wondering if space was manifest everywhere so all of the 'world' around me in my vision and hearing. Is that space? I had various gut feelings and body feelings and eventually I got dropped off in a sense of non-thought. So I relaxed into that. And then I started to get restless to post in NB and I was wondering if I should eat the last Birthday cupcake haha.

    A lot of meditations I just drift around in thoughts or even if focused I just feel relaxation of space rather than 'knowing' what space is. It's a difficult question it's like asking how red a fire engine is?? Something like that... applying a word label. But just to steer to get a taste of 'space' this space makes new thoughts possible and it also makes the recognition of thoughts AS thoughts possible.

    Again my meditations are all different. The majority of my thoughts are about how to get a better body feeling because I am on a cocktail of anti-psychotics. These drugs make me feel drugged which makes sense because they are drugs. I trade non-delusion for bad body feeling.

    So the above answers your questions. I am talking about things arising in practice. I am assessing the need for better body feeling to make it worthwhile, and I am questioning the nature of reality in exposing myself to the 'space' and trying to understand how space can be used or of benefit, what is the nature of space.. is this space or is that space? Is it a void does it feel peaceful is it the stillness behind feeling? I try to let those questions be asked but not get off of the present moment and having a light touch ie being able to let go and just be unknowing.
  • Yeah, I struggle with what's an acceptable conceptualization of space, too. Maybe the answer is that it's acceptable if it leads to the state of mind you're aiming for at the moment?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Maybe. But how do you know if you have made the wrong target? You at least have to trust that there is a progression and that things will come in their own time. Until they come you inevitably squirm a bit trying to get the mental state how you want it. I've heard it said that you cannot trick dukkha. You need to realize dukkha to get to sukkha. But if you are just at some level there is a paradox that you smooth over dukkha with a rumination that you will get to sukkha. That is the paradox because you are thinking of what you want that is not here. So you never get interested in the dukkha. At my level I am just having faith that eventually insight will come or at least till then I can experience a beautiful practice which is beautiful because it is heading towards something with true worth, nirvana.

    But then again maybe you are leading to an acceptable state just you need to be light on your feet yet honest and matter of fact. I like the approach to transcendent meditation how it is experience based. Mindfulness meditation such as Shikentanza I like because it encompasses all experience.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    fivebells said:

    Do you find uncertainty disturbs or otherwise hinders your meditation practice? If so, what are you uncertain about and how do you deal with it?

    Uncertainty about the particular meditation method I've chosen to use is a big one for me. Sometimes I doubt the efficacy of the overall technique, more often I doubt my ability to follow the method "correctly." It often results in my mind wandering into doubt, or in a more extreme case, changing methods altogether and never getting too deep into it.

    I try to deal with it by telling myself to stick with it. If the doubt is quite overwhelming, then I fall back onto the most basic of meditations - being aware of the in and out breaths at the tip of the nose.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    fivebells said:

    @Sabre, I appreciate you bringing this up, and I think it's highly relevant to the sutta. I agree, "doing" is not one-pointed, not at ease. However, the argument that "... they all disappear with just being in the present moment. If we are in the present, what hindrances could possibly be?" is circular reasoning. The reason the Buddha makes these recommendations regarding the hindrances is that they keep you from "just being in the present moment."

    E.g., You want something, and thoughts about it keep taking attention away from the present moment. How are you going to mitigate this issue? The sutta suggests attending to the unattractive aspects of the thing you want.

    We're all trying to get to that still, peaceful place you're talking about, but the path there is rarely via simply deciding to let things settle down by themselves. If it works, great, but as the sutta shows, it is a technically limited and inflexible approach.

    In the same way, the factors for awakening are all there in that still quiet space, and you can often develop them by "just being in the present moment," but not always. This was happening to me just today with anger getting in the way of serenity. The 'observer' was there, and I was attending to the constituent sensations construed as anger, but it wasn't going away, and I was able to mitigate that by attending to stillness. I've tried the "just being in the present moment" approach with this kind of anger before (practiced that way for years), and it hasn't worked for me. The active, fabricating approaches of metta and attending to stillness have.

    Overall, instructions like the food sutta leave you with a much richer and more flexible approach to meditation than "just being in the present moment," and they've afforded my practice much more resiliency when the demands of everyday life have leaned up against it.

    I agree there are multiple ways of going about it, and at times we need a more active approach. I certainly don't deny that because I also use a more active approach at times.

    But it's only circular reasoning from a certain point of view. One could say hindrances keep you from the present moment, or the present moment makes the hindrances disappear. It's both true in a way. See, the hindrances also appear in the present moment. Everything is in the present moment. So in a way it's only a figure of speech to say "be in the present moment".

    I'm all for being flexible and creative in meditation. But I'm just clarifying that the active approach for me is not the end of things. I aim all activity towards letting go. That also gives a better idea and insight into what kind of activity the Buddha was pointing at in suttas such as this.
  • Sabre said:

    I'm just clarifying that the active approach for me is not the end of things. I aim all activity towards letting go. That also gives a better idea and insight into what kind of activity the Buddha was pointing at in suttas such as this.

    Totally agree, but I think there's too much emphasis on the end of things in most discussions of meditation, mostly because I'm profiting so much by going back to the beginning of things. For instance, the book I initially learned from only had one chapter on concentration, and 80% of the book was concerned with insight practice. Even the immeasurables meditations were insight practices! That's extreme, but it reflects a common trend, especially in Tibetan Buddhism. I think maybe it's because insight is more interesting to talk about, even though concentration is more interesting to actually do in a lot of ways.
    Sabre said:

    See, the hindrances also appear in the present moment. Everything is in the present moment. So in a way it's only a figure of speech to say "be in the present moment".

    Yes, but I meant something fairly specific and recognizable (at least after the fact) when I said they keep you out of the present moment: enchantment by becoming.
  • Jeffrey said:

    Maybe. But how do you know if you have made the wrong target? You at least have to trust that there is a progression and that things will come in their own time. Until they come you inevitably squirm a bit trying to get the mental state how you want it. I've heard it said that you cannot trick dukkha. You need to realize dukkha to get to sukkha. But if you are just at some level there is a paradox that you smooth over dukkha with a rumination that you will get to sukkha. That is the paradox because you are thinking of what you want that is not here. So you never get interested in the dukkha.

    This turns out not to be as big a problem as it looks, because even the jhanas grow unsatisfactory after a while, like all conditioned phenomena.
  • Uncertainty about the particular meditation method I've chosen to use is a big one for me. Sometimes I doubt the efficacy of the overall technique, more often I doubt my ability to follow the method "correctly." It often results in my mind wandering into doubt, or in a more extreme case, changing methods altogether and never getting too deep into it.

    If you want to talk more about what's triggering these doubts, feel free to do so here or in another thread or a personal message.
  • fivebells said:

    Yeah, I struggle with what's an acceptable conceptualization of space, too. Maybe the answer is that it's acceptable if it leads to the state of mind you're aiming for at the moment?

    http://www.dhammatalks.net/Articles/Ajahn_Sumedho_Noticing_Space.htm
    Invincible_summerJeffrey
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited May 2013
    fivebells said:

    Sabre said:

    I'm just clarifying that the active approach for me is not the end of things. I aim all activity towards letting go. That also gives a better idea and insight into what kind of activity the Buddha was pointing at in suttas such as this.

    Totally agree, but I think there's too much emphasis on the end of things in most discussions of meditation, mostly because I'm profiting so much by going back to the beginning of things. For instance, the book I initially learned from only had one chapter on concentration, and 80% of the book was concerned with insight practice. Even the immeasurables meditations were insight practices! That's extreme, but it reflects a common trend, especially in Tibetan Buddhism. I think maybe it's because insight is more interesting to talk about, even though concentration is more interesting to actually do in a lot of ways.
    Sabre said:

    See, the hindrances also appear in the present moment. Everything is in the present moment. So in a way it's only a figure of speech to say "be in the present moment".

    Yes, but I meant something fairly specific and recognizable (at least after the fact) when I said they keep you out of the present moment: enchantment by becoming.
    Could be. I never specifically do "insight meditation" because I don't see a difference, but I know people do define it. Don't know too much about Tibetan Buddhism.
  • Another conversation starter: Do you experience the five hindrances as illness, slavery, insecurity? Do you experience absence of them as health, freedom, security?

    ...when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.

    Vastmind
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Yes I do. Exactly. I think of an 'I' who wants a 'good' body feeling. Instead of thinking what I would like to do I think of a good feeling that I want something I do to give me. So right there is restlessness, aversion, craving. Somewhere in there I am going to think of something stupid I did in my life maybe. And that might be the only excitement I have in my dull mind so I stoke it.

    Fortunately all the meditation I have done shows me that it is possible to let go of the need for 'good feeling'. I haven't yet found a way to control whether the hindrances are there but I have some muscle memory for "letting go". One tactic is to on the spot do a meditation and go into the senses and drop the mind for a breath every so often. But I haven't found a way to avoid the times when I don't feel good. I think just noticing you have the hindrances is pretty powerful because then you know what is happening and it builds confidence in the teaching on the hindrances,, they are really there and they are suffering. I suppose continued attention on them will reveal their taste, texture, odor and so forth what I mean is that somehow my view can be transformed??
  • @Jeffrey, for me it depends on the effect the bad feeling is having. If it's sufficiently destabilizing, no 'letting go' is possible.
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