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Sutra Club: Buddha Ordains a SERIAL KILLER! Killer Gets Enlightened After Getting STONED!
fivebells
Veteran
Hi, everyone. This week's sutta is about the serial killer Angulimala. The Buddha basically walks up to him and converts him to Buddhist practice on the spot. Later, Angulimala is stoned by the associates of some of his victims but he survives, and the Buddha's instructions to him regarding this incident lead to his enlightenment.
This has been one of my favorite sutras for over a decade, and I have seen some pitfalls in discussing it. It contains some claims of magic and it suggests a way of relating to adversity which starkly threatens our very survival. These aspects of it tend to trigger emotional reactions and derail the conversation from the really important issue the sutta raises, which is how to skillfully relate to our own past personal wrongdoings and how to skillfully relate to others' transgressions against us. Therefore, there are some questions I would like to avoid in this discussion: Let's not talk about whether Buddha's magical capacity to prevent Angulimala's attacks played a role in his decision to approach him. If you want to talk about that, talk instead about Angulimala's decision to seek alms among people with every reason to want to torture him to death in cold blood, because it's much closer to the decisions we mortals are forced to make. And let's not talk about whether they were right or wrong to want to seek vengeance against him. If you want to talk about that, instead talk about the skillful way to behave in a world where those against whom you've transgressed will in turn seek vengeance against you.
This has been one of my favorite sutras for over a decade, and I have seen some pitfalls in discussing it. It contains some claims of magic and it suggests a way of relating to adversity which starkly threatens our very survival. These aspects of it tend to trigger emotional reactions and derail the conversation from the really important issue the sutta raises, which is how to skillfully relate to our own past personal wrongdoings and how to skillfully relate to others' transgressions against us. Therefore, there are some questions I would like to avoid in this discussion: Let's not talk about whether Buddha's magical capacity to prevent Angulimala's attacks played a role in his decision to approach him. If you want to talk about that, talk instead about Angulimala's decision to seek alms among people with every reason to want to torture him to death in cold blood, because it's much closer to the decisions we mortals are forced to make. And let's not talk about whether they were right or wrong to want to seek vengeance against him. If you want to talk about that, instead talk about the skillful way to behave in a world where those against whom you've transgressed will in turn seek vengeance against you.
Lastly, this story about a modern-day (early 90s) robbery in India is reminiscent of Angulimala:W. H. Auden said:I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.
The monk and his lay companion
8
Comments
He asked for my assistance.
Bad idea.
I'm about as savvy on techno~stuff as The Hulk was on knitting....
The error in the first post was therefore not his, but mine.
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Part of us is Angulimala like, doing unskilful acts and justifying it. We meet the Buddha's dharma. Do we change? Are we ready?
:om:
people who has done evil things change dramatically.
even in my own case, i am a very different person today.
10 yrs ago, i will do almost anything to get
what i want. i didnt really care what happens to other
people.
now, i am not like that.
the second point i want to make is do we believe
there are some people in this world with special
powers? apart from those people who use tricks,
i do believe that certain people have these powers.
how they attain these powers is a separate question.
if buddha existed, and he is a very 'special' person,
i would not be surprised if he had some powers
that most of us dont.
@lobster: I agree. One aspect of this sutta which I find very interesting is that after attaining enlightenment, he responds to the stoning by going off into the forest, and only when hearing the Buddha's exhortation does he experience the bliss of release. Release from what? From the suffering induced by the stoning? As an arahant, does he suffer? Maybe instead of worrying about whether we're enlightened or not we should just use the skills we've developed to release the suffering of the present moment. Maybe at the time the Buddha exhorted him to bear with it, he was not actually an arahant, even.
@federica, it appears the error on my part was two-fold, first the formatting mistake, then I did not see how to edit a newly-created post. If there is a way to do that, could you point it out to me, please? Anyway, I think it worked out well as it is.
I wonder if "sudden enlightenment" in Zen can be traced back to suttas like the Angulimala...
Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future.
The moment of ' I have stopped...now you stop', stuck
out at me. Made me think.
@fivebells....May I ask? Why is it one of your favorites?
@Lazy_eye, I agree. It's useful to consider what killing and oppressing we're committing or complicit to. At the very least, our very existence and physical upkeep squeezes the resources available to everyone else around us, and this comes back to haunt us in multiple ways, the least of which is the need to go out and persuade someone to trade some of those resources with us.
@Vastmind, I am not an evil man, but for most of my life I have intensely disliked myself. The sutra reminds me that as long as you're breathing, there is room to start afresh. It also reminds me how far the practice goes, particularly the practice of metta, and of where it can take you.
Firstly, on the issue of Angulimala's very fast enlightenment, we can see that he didn't start from scratch. This can be seen from the fact that when the Buddha spoke his first words to Angulimala, ie. "I have stopped, Angulimala. You stop.", the Sutta says that Angulimala immediately had the thought that, "These Sakyan contemplatives are speakers of the truth, asserters of the truths, and yet this contemplative, even while walking, says, 'I have stopped, Angulimala. You stop.' Why don't I question him?"" This shows that Angulimala had held Sakyan contemplatives in high regard as speakers of the truth.
Then when the Buddha gave Angulimala the explanation, Angulimala responds by saying, "At long last a greatly revered great seer for my sake has come to the great forest. Having heard your verse in line with the Dhamma, I will go about having abandoned evil." The fact that Angulimala says "at long last", I think that is significant. I think it shows that Angulimala has had since a long time an inner yearning for a great seer to come and show him the truth. This desire to know the truth is also shown by Angulimala's decision to "question" the Buddha (someone whom Angulimama regards as a "speaker of the truth") what the Buddha meant when he said "I have stopped, Angulimala. You stop."
So I think this is alluding to the fact that Angulimala in his previous lives have met Sakyan contemplatives who were speakers of the truth and studied under them. Therefore, he had full confidence and faith that what the Buddha would utter is the truth. And the fact that he had an inner yearning to seek the truth, means that he was ready to apply the Dhamma when spoken to him in order to realize the truth, which he did. (By the way, I'm not very sure about this, but I remember having read somewhere that all Buddhas are born as humans and would appear in India and perhaps even always of the Sakyan clan. If this is true, this verse would suggest that Angulimala had met other Buddhas in his previous lifetimes.)
Secondly, I think the Sutta is also showing the transformative power of compassion. When King Pasenadi Kosala saw that Angulimala had abandoned evil and become a monk, he says the following to the Buddha, "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One has tamed the untamed, pacified the unpeaceful, and brought to Unbinding those who were not unbound. For what we could not tame even with blunt or bladed weapons, the Blessed One has tamed without blunt or bladed weapons." I think here, the Sutta is saying that while people may try to use force or punishment to effect change in an evil person, this often fails. On the other hand, a wise teacher uses compassion and wisdom to cause transformation.
Thirdly, on the issue of when Angulimala became an arahant, it would appear that he had already become one before he was attacked by thrown objects. This is because in the preceding paragraph before the incident of being attacked by thrown objects occurred, the Sutta says that, "And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants."
But yes, the Sutta does say that Angulimala "experienced the bliss of release" after the Buddha said to him, "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" I would say that Angulimala's experience of bliss of release was not caused by the Buddha urging him to "bear with it", but rather his experience of release was caused by the Buddha revealing that the fruit of his past karma was ripening and being extinguished in the "here-and-now". So perhaps Anguilama was experiencing a bliss from the knowledge that he was being "released" from the fruits of past karma. This is possible because there are different types of arahants. While some arahants possess the five kinds of super-knowledge which includes knowledge about one's own past births (and thus what kind of karma one had committed in the past), most arahants achieve enlightenment without possessing the five super-knowledges.
The above interpretation is also supported by what Angulimala himself says with reference to the incident, that is:
"Having done the type of kamma
that would lead to many
bad destinations,
touched by the fruit of [that] kamma,
unindebted, I eat my food."
Now, if we apply this to our own lives, it also means that when we experience something bad, we can consider that perhaps this is just bad karma coming into fruition, and so we are actually being released from such bad karma following us into the future, therefore, this is a good reason to just "bear with it" because one will no longer be indebted to that karma. In fact, this could even be an occasion to feel a bliss of release.
In the case of Angulimala, the specific fruit of his past karma that the Buddha revealed is that he would have " burned in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years". However, Angulimala escaped this fruit of karma because of his arahantship which caused such karma to ripen "in the here-&-now" and experienced in a much much lesser degree of being thrown at with objects. The Buddha revealed this fact to Angulimala. So I was just saying that maybe the phrase "experienced the bliss of release" meant that Angulimala felt blissful with the knowledge that he had been "released" from having to spend many thousands of years in hell.
Actually, I would not normally interpret the text in that way but it was just an attempt at trying to reconcile the fact that the Sutta had clearly stated that Angulimala had attained arahantship prior to the incident of him being thrown at with objects. Also, the Sutta doesn't seem to imply that what the Buddha said (ie. Bear with it brahman!... etc) was the cause for Angulimala attaining arahantship.
Perhaps this would be another way of looking at it. When the Sutta says, "Then Ven. Angulimala, having gone alone into seclusion, experienced the bliss of release." So rather than experiencing the bliss of release due to the Buddha exhorting him to bear with it and revealing the ripening of his past karma, Angulimala's experienceing the bliss of release was due to him "having gone alone into seclusion." For this to be the correct interpretation, it must mean that arahants do not experience the bliss of release at all times but perhaps only when they incline their minds towards such bliss.
If that is the case then the sequence of events would be the same as it appears in the Sutta, as follows:
1) Angulimala gives well-being to women and fetus in Savatthi
2) Angulimala attains arahantship
3) Angulimala goes back to Savatthi and gets thrown at with objects
4) Angulimala goes to Buddha (presumably to question him about why he was thrown at with objects despite being an arahant)
5) The Buddha provides answer to Angulimala that the incident was caused by the fruit of his past karma ripening in the here and now
6) Angulimala is satisfied with the answer then goes into seclusion
7) Having gone into seclusion, Angulimala is able to incline his mind towards the bliss of release and thus experiences bliss of release.
Then again if you consider Trungpa it is said he was very advanced practioner and some even believe he became a Buddha at death. But Trungpa was engaged in sense pleasures it seems.
So it could be hard to understand how Angulimala accomplished so much.
The Buddha stopped. Have we stopped? As long as we behave in a way that is continually harmful, try as we might, we can't catch up with the Buddha either-- like a dog that chases his own tail.
@person, I've heard that story, too. No idea what the provenance of it is. I think the Gombrich essay on Angulimala must address the possibility, but I haven't been able to find it online.
@riverflow, nice comment.
Padmasambhava said:
" My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour."
Who shot it at me?
Where was it made?
Maybe I'm missing something... :scratch:
Did the thread take this turn because the 'before'
could have effected the 'after'....i.e. the moment
he 'stopped'?
Are we discussing the prerequisites of him stopping?
“Our enemies are not human beings. They are cravings, anger, hatred, suspicion, despair. The energy of mindfulness is healing and helps us recognise that. When you suffer less, you are lighter. You are more compassionate.”
@Jeffrey, Padmasambhava's simile about the mind is as clear to me as the wind, but his simile about his actions simile is as opaque to me as a loaf of bread being used by a mime to beat himself in the head.
subject....not necessarily what/why he was doing at the time...
@Vastmind: Yes.
It's due to this very point that someone like Angulimala, a murderer, could become an arahant. Don't explain wrongly as is often done, the Buddha's reply to Angulimala, "I have already stopped. It is you that have not stopped." Don't explain that 'not stopped' means that Angulimala became a saint because he stopped killing people. Anyone that explains like that is badly representing the Buddha because when the Buddha used the word 'stop' here, he was referring to the stopping of 'I' and 'mine', to the stopping of clinging and grasping, or in other words to emptiness. So it is emptiness that is the stopping and it is the only kind of stopping that could have made Angulimala an arahant. If it was just stopping killing people that would make one an arahant why are not all those people who do not kill arahants? It is because cessation, the true stopping, is the emptiness where there is no self to dwell anymore. That is true stopping. If there is still a self then you can't stop.
So we should understand that the word 'empty' is the same as the word 'stop', the single word by which the Buddha was able to enlighten Angulimala, even though the killer's hands were still red with blood and around his neck hung the 999 finger bones of his victims. For kamma to end by itself, to reach the stopping, we must rely on this single term: empty of 'I' and 'mine', not grasping at or clinging to dhammas.
Ajahn Buddhadasa
Alternatively, you can examine the continually changing emotions within yourself, as they arise and cease. Even if you don't go astray by chasing after these moods, perceptions and notions, you should still carefully stabilize the mind so that it doesn't grasp after anything -- including any memory or thought which may arise. Just concentrate on doing this and you will sweep clean the mind, wiping out whatever suffering is present. Every condition arises and then ceases, comes and disappears. Don't go and grasp hold of anything, thinking it's good or bad, or taking it as oneself. Stop all such thinking and conceptualizing. When you understand this, the mind will calm down of itself; it will naturally become free. Whatever thoughts arise, see that they just come and will go, so don't grasp at them. Then there's not much else to do. Just carefully scrutinize and detach yourself from any entanglements within. There are then no fantasies and thought fabrications about the past or future. They've all stopped. Things arise and cease -- just that.
Upasika Kee - Training for Liberation
"In the Theravada tradition, we believe one must fully develop the ten perfections (ie. Generosity, Virtue, Renunciation, Wisdom, Effort, Endurance, Truthfulness, Determination, Loving-kindness and Equamity) and accumulate merit to full capacity in order to become enlightened. From what I understand these ten perfections and merit can be accumulated over rebirths until they eventually become fully developed and reach full capacity. This means you don't start from scratch in a new rebirth in relation to the development of these ten perfections and accumulation of merit.
Many of us would have probably heard about people during the Buddha's time who would attain full enlightenment or one of the lower stages of enlightenment upon their first hearing of the Buddha's teachings. Now how is that possible? A lot of these people were non-believers and in fact some were people who had harboured extremely wrong or even destructive views. However, upon their first meeting with Buddha and hearing just a Sutta-length sermon by the Buddha or sometimes even just a single verse of his teaching, they were able to immediately attain one of the four stages of enlightenment.
The Buddha is said to have categorized people into four different types of lotus in accordance with their distance to achieving enlightenment. The people I mentioned above are said to be like a lotus bud which is sticking out of the surface of the water and is ready to bloom when touched by sunlight. This type of lotus represents people who are able to readily understand the Dhamma at first hearing. So how did these people get to become this type of lotus without prior practice during the lifetime in which they met the Buddha? The explanation that many teachers have given is that these people had in previous countless lifetimes been developing the ten perfections and accumulating merit to the point where they have already become really really close to reaching enlightenment and therefore when they met the Buddha, he provided the ray of sunlight upon which they fully bloomed instantaneously.
[Added comment: As for Angulimala, he would have been considered as the lotus on the water level which is ready to bloom the next day. This type of lotus represents people who require not much effort to understand the Dhamma. The reason for him reaching this stage can be explained the same way, ie. he developed the ten perfections in previous lifetimes and accumulated a lot of merit to a very high level, but not as much as those who are the type of lotus bud which is out of the water and ready to bloom upon being touched by sunlight.]
Although this implies that there is an overall forward trajectory heading towards enlightenment through the development of the ten perfections and accumulation of merit over the countless lifetimes, this trajectory is not necessarily a linear one, but there may be periods of ups and downs along the path. So, for example, during a lifetime as a human you may have managed to overcome anger, but then you also had committed some very negative karma causing you to be reborn in hell upon death. As there is intense suffering in hell, extreme anger is said to be the predominant state of mind for hell-beings. Therefore, after your negative karma has been exhausted and you eventually take rebirth in the human realm again, then it is expected that you would have to unlearn the anger which was re-imprinted into your stream of consciousness during your lifetime in hell."
I'm not sure what your point is.
Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html#gods
This the exact advice given by Patrul Rinpoche
Advice from Me to Myself
Your mind is spinning around
About carrying out a lot of useless projects:
It’s a waste! Give it up!
Thinking about the hundred plans you want to accomplish,
With never enough time to finish them,
Just weighs down your mind.
You’re completely distracted
By all these projects, which never come to an end,
But keep spreading out more, like ripples in water.
Don’t be a fool: for once, just sit tight.
http://sealevel.ca/patrul/