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Karma? Buddhist ethics? Or just that life is unfair?
In addition, it may be that in a previous life the kid was in an even worse situation but earned himself a better life this time, just not a perfect one. We see him as suffering because of Karma, but maybe he's actually on an upwards trajectory. Maybe he's almost a Buddha but just needed one more unpleasant lesson. It's hopeless guessing about these things.
See, now that's a reasonable statement -- that, "It's hopeless guessing about these things."
Yet, you just did, and I don't think you went mad or were vexated.
Guessing about what the possibilties are is not hopeless.
Secondly, I declare that I have the right to think, and not Buddha or anyone else is going to tell me otherwise.
Sure, but you don't have to believe everything you think.
Did I say you did?
You do seem quite attached to your opinions.
You said that I don't have to believe everything I think. I have no misconception that everything I think is what is "correct" or "right". But, saying that I will continue to think about issues...such as karma, for example, where my views have evolved substantially since joining this website...is keeping an open mind; surrendering to the idea that anything is imponderable and not to be thought about is a concept that has been very frequently used in societies where freedom has been virtually nonexistent.
In addition, it may be that in a previous life the kid was in an even worse situation but earned himself a better life this time, just not a perfect one. We see him as suffering because of Karma, but maybe he's actually on an upwards trajectory. Maybe he's almost a Buddha but just needed one more unpleasant lesson. It's hopeless guessing about these things.
See, now that's a reasonable statement -- that, "It's hopeless guessing about these things."
Yet, you just did, and I don't think you went mad or were vexated.
Guessing about what the possibilties are is not hopeless.
Take out what I wrote and examine what you wrote.
In the first passage you wrote, "It's hopeless guessing about these things." In the second passage you wrote, "Guessing about what the possibilties are is not hopeless. "
I find it hard to believe that you cannot find a way of interpreting these two statements so that they are consistent with each other. It's the difference between guessing what is true and hypothesising various possibilities. It's not hopeless to guess the possibilties, quite easy in fact, but pointless guessing which is the case.
How do you answer someone who has horrible things happen to them when they ask why? Do you think your answer helps? Why is there pain and suffering? Why is there aging, sickness and death?
Have you actually given thought to these questions?
Namaste,
As someone who has been diagnosed with a terminal illness I have given a shitload of thought to these questions.
Bottom line - I have no idea why these things happen. Is it fair that I have this illness at a young age (38)? Is it fair that I may die before my daughter grows into adulthood? Is it fair that this disease may be genetic and my daughter may already have it herself? Is it fair that my parents may see themselves outlive their child? Is it fair that I have always tried to "do the right thing" at the expense of my own happiness many times in the past and not reaped "good" karma for it?
The answer to those questions and many others is "No, of course not". I can't answer them and I won't waste the time I have left trying to figure it out.
So I have to say that @vinlyn is correct in saying:
Yes, sometimes life is unfair.
There is no straightforward answer. You answer truthfully when asked - "I don't know"
Is evolution fair? It seems fierce and faceless. The Hindu and some Buddhist formulas for evolution (from animal to better life as a virtuous human) try and suggest a cosmic order that complies with our evolved sense of fairness. I find more evidence for Darwinian evolution, which means our time is short, our chance for enlightenment limited but possible. The chances of a dead kid are limited to the point of non existence, unless you prefer theories of the continuity of consciousness. Which may seem an attractive possibility . . . Fantasy and hope can be powerful. The truth can be dukkha. There is a solution . . .
How do you answer someone who has horrible things happen to them when they ask why? Do you think your answer helps? Why is there pain and suffering? Why is there aging, sickness and death?
Have you actually given thought to these questions?
Namaste,
As someone who has been diagnosed with a terminal illness I have given a shitload of thought to these questions.
The answer to those questions and many others is "No, of course not". I can't answer them and I won't waste the time I have left trying to figure it out.
So I have to say that @vinlyn is correct in saying:
Yes, sometimes life is unfair.
There is no straightforward answer. You answer truthfully when asked - "I don't know"
In metta. Raven
That is why the Buddha said some things are not to be conjectured about for they will lead to vexation and they do not lead to end of suffering. That is the nature of things in the world (samsara).
All conditioned things are impermanent, All conditioned things are suffering, All things are without a self.
You can’t get deeper Dhamma, more profound Dhamma, than the teaching of the Dhammacakka Sutta which we chanted before this evening’s talk. It is a powerful teaching. Sometimes, because it looks easy to understand on the surface, people pass it by and look for something more complex so they can exercise their thinking. But instead we should pause and look at this sutta of the Buddha. Listening to that teaching, A¤¤à Koõóa¤¤a became the first stream-winner. The Buddha said, “Indeed, Koõóa¤¤a has understood; indeed, he has understood”. And what did A¤¤à Koõóa¤¤a really understand? He understood this simple teaching: sabbe saïkhàrà dukkhà—all conditioned things are suffering.
When it helps people to believe that their misfortune somehow is “just” or in line with the laws of karma or that it is God’s will; and when they find comfort in that; it would be cruel to even attempt to rob them of this comfort.
When it helps people to believe that someone else’s misfortune is “just” or in line with the laws of karma or that it is God’s will; and they find comfort in that; it stinks. It is the comfort of blaming the victim.
When someone else suffers, instead of judging or blaming them, we could feel compassion. When we suffer, we need to have some compassion for ourselves too.
The example of drugs-abuse leading to health-problems as a black and white example of the working of karma, is maybe not so clear. Addiction is a complex problem and there is little fairness in the way addiction is distributed. People may get addicted (partly) because they are genetically more vulnerable to addiction; People may have psychological problem prior to the drug-abuse; People who suffered abuse as children are more vulnerable. The problem looks simple only when we don’t really look at all.
How do you answer someone who has horrible things happen to them when they ask why? Do you think your answer helps? Why is there pain and suffering? Why is there aging, sickness and death?
Have you actually given thought to these questions?
Namaste,
As someone who has been diagnosed with a terminal illness I have given a shitload of thought to these questions.
Bottom line - I have no idea why these things happen. Is it fair that I have this illness at a young age (38)? Is it fair that I may die before my daughter grows into adulthood? Is it fair that this disease may be genetic and my daughter may already have it herself? Is it fair that my parents may see themselves outlive their child? Is it fair that I have always tried to "do the right thing" at the expense of my own happiness many times in the past and not reaped "good" karma for it?
The answer to those questions and many others is "No, of course not". I can't answer them and I won't waste the time I have left trying to figure it out.
So I have to say that @vinlyn is correct in saying:
Yes, sometimes life is unfair.
There is no straightforward answer. You answer truthfully when asked - "I don't know"
even in the physical world, we can observe that nothing happens without a reason. there is always a sequence of events that leads to the present condition. every effect has its cause.
How do you answer someone who has horrible things happen to them when they ask why? Do you think your answer helps? Why is there pain and suffering? Why is there aging, sickness and death?
Have you actually given thought to these questions?
Namaste,
As someone who has been diagnosed with a terminal illness I have given a shitload of thought to these questions.
Bottom line - I have no idea why these things happen. Is it fair that I have this illness at a young age (38)? Is it fair that I may die before my daughter grows into adulthood? Is it fair that this disease may be genetic and my daughter may already have it herself? Is it fair that my parents may see themselves outlive their child? Is it fair that I have always tried to "do the right thing" at the expense of my own happiness many times in the past and not reaped "good" karma for it?
The answer to those questions and many others is "No, of course not". I can't answer them and I won't waste the time I have left trying to figure it out.
So I have to say that @vinlyn is correct in saying:
Yes, sometimes life is unfair.
There is no straightforward answer. You answer truthfully when asked - "I don't know"
In metta. Raven
I DON'T know. And neither do you @jll. Neither do you.
I have suggested previously that you aquaint yourself with the 5 niyamas @jll. These are the five factors that give rise to all phenomena. In the case of a severe illness, kamma-niyama ( karma) is one possibility..but so is uti-niyama which is this context includes environmental factors,( for example someone is raised in a house which exposes them to unsuspected asbestos ) and bija-niyama which includes genetic factors. And the Buddha specifically warned us( Lakhana Sutta ) against speculating which of the niyamas or combination of same were involved in any particular case. I fear that your understanding of karma is tainted by the one-to-one, punishment, Hindu view of karma, and this had led you into an uncompassionate and judgemental and simplistic response to others.
Under your post made at 7.33 I reacted to Dhammachick's response with an 'insightful' and realised too late that I appeared to be endorsing your view. I wasn't.
In my judgement [ahem] it is very hard to not be judgemental. We are all afflicted by the circumstances and causes, the opportunities and the horrors of temporary arising - life I think it is called.
Be kind but not sloppy, be honest but not painfully so. Life is precious. Be ready to leave at a moments notice and . . . well how wonderful is that . . . and if the only kind you know is as sloppy as a dog . . . be a dog . . .
as i understand karma, a person like hitler or stalin will be reborn in a state of suffering if they are reborn as humans. so, maybe baby hitler2 is born blind and without legs. put the scenario above to any buddhist monk and he will tell you it is consistent with budhdha's teachings.
I have suggested previously that you aquaint yourself with the 5 niyamas @jll. These are the five factors that give rise to all phenomena. In the case of a severe illness, kamma-niyama ( karma) is one possibility..but so is uti-niyama which is this context includes environmental factors,( for example someone is raised in a house which exposes them to unsuspected asbestos ) and bija-niyama which includes genetic factors. And the Buddha specifically warned us( Lakhana Sutta ) against speculating which of the niyamas or combination of same were involved in any particular case. I fear that your understanding of karma is tainted by the one-to-one, punishment, Hindu view of karma, and this had led you into an uncompassionate and judgemental and simplistic response to others.
Under your post made at 7.33 I reacted to Dhammachick's response with an 'insightful' and realised too late that I appeared to be endorsing your view. I wasn't.
Sometimes, it feels like it's a taboo to believe in karma when someone is suffering. The reality is, that a lot of us will expire from this body we currently have before getting our 3 scores and 10, and not many of us will go painlessly in our sleep. We will almost all have awful life events, and i'm sure like me, many of you will have had dreadful experiences, some maybe ongoing. When we see someone else going through a horror, it isn't helpful, or kind to talk to them about karma. It's offensive, repugnant. And 5 years ago, when I went through my own horrors, no one talked to me about karma. Thank god! Because I wouldn't have felt it kind, or helpful.
About 5 years ago, I entered a very introspective period. A lot of questions were asked, a lot of searching. I didn't work for 2 years, I was a bit of a hermit, I concluded in one thing, karma. For me, karma is my equilibrium, at least, that is what I have been given through my belief in karma. It's a total acceptance of the awful things that have happened, and passed, and a total belief in reaping what you sow, and it underpins everything. Every nightmare scenario, every crap day, yes I get angry still, fed up, struggle, but that karma underpin is always there, and I struggled a lot more before it. But like anything, thought process are a habit. Sometimes you just have to remind yourself of what you know, what it is that you really believe in.
If there is no "I" then there is no "you" that recieves a positive nor negative reaping of the actions. It just feels like it is, because that is how it is to be alive, a human. The results will reap, because (the results of) karma isn't truncated by a subjective, human view of fair and unfair. I see it as totally pure.
Trying to put into words something that you intuitively feel, is not easy!
as i understand karma, a person like hitler or stalin will be reborn in a state of suffering if they are reborn as humans. so, maybe baby hitler2 is born blind and without legs. put the scenario above to any buddhist monk and he will tell you it is consistent with budhdha's teachings.
I have suggested previously that you aquaint yourself with the 5 niyamas @jll. These are the five factors that give rise to all phenomena. In the case of a severe illness, kamma-niyama ( karma) is one possibility..but so is uti-niyama which is this context includes environmental factors,( for example someone is raised in a house which exposes them to unsuspected asbestos ) and bija-niyama which includes genetic factors. And the Buddha specifically warned us( Lakhana Sutta ) against speculating which of the niyamas or combination of same were involved in any particular case. I fear that your understanding of karma is tainted by the one-to-one, punishment, Hindu view of karma, and this had led you into an uncompassionate and judgemental and simplistic response to others.
Under your post made at 7.33 I reacted to Dhammachick's response with an 'insightful' and realised too late that I appeared to be endorsing your view. I wasn't.
Karma is not a stick to beat people with. It could be one of the many reasons why things happen - NOT the only reason. So reducing everything - sickness, tsunami, misfortune - to karma makes little sense, not to mention it is heartless. We simply have to understand that life is full of sorrow (karma or no karma) and that the Buddha's path is all about liberating oneself from it.
Karma is a provisional truth like "the sun rises in the east". You can base your life on it but really the earth is rotating and the sun is sitting still. We cannot pin down a single moment even. Each moment is composite. Thus not having a single moment we cannot say that later moments came from it.
Dogen said something about fire turning to ash.
As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, and birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings.
As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death.
The buddha way is, basically, leaping clear of the many of the one; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas.
Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening.
Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion.
When buddhas are truly buddhas they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing buddhas.
When you see forms or hear sounds fully engaging body-and-mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illumined the other side is dark.
To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.
When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted; you are immediately your original self. When you ride in a boat and watch the shore, you might assume that the shore is moving. But when you keep your eyes closely on the boat, you can see that the boat moves. Similarly, if you examine myriad things with a confused body and mind you might suppose that your mind and nature are permanent. When you practice intimately and return to where you are, it will be clear that nothing at all has unchanging self.
Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.
This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.
Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.
Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.
The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long of short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.
When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing.
For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round or square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only look circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this.
Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety; whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet, or in a drop of water.
A fish swims in the ocean, and no matter how far it swims there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies there is no end to the air. However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. When their activity is large their field is large. When their need is small their field is small. Thus, each of them totally covers its full range, and each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. If the fish leaves the water it will die at once.
Know that water is life and air is life. The bird is life and the fish is life. Life must be the bird and life must be the fish.
It is possible to illustrate this with more analogies. Practice, enlightenment, and people are like this.
Now if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find you way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point; for the place, the way, is neither large nor small, neither yours nor others'. The place, the way, has not carried over from the past and it is not merely arising now.
Accordingly, in the practice-enlightenment of the buddha way, meeting one thing is mastering it--doing one practice is practicing completely. Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the realization comes forth simultaneously with the mastery of buddha-dharma.
Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge. Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. When, then, do you fan yourself?"
"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."
"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.
The actualization of the buddha-dharma, the vital path of its correct transmission, is like this. If you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind. The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha's house brings for the gold of the earth and makes fragrant the cream of the long river.
Written in mid-autumn, the first year of Tempuku 1233, and given to my lay student Koshu Yo of Kyushu Island. {Revised in} the fourth year of Kencho {I252}.
Karma is not a stick to beat people with. It could be one of the many reasons why things happen - NOT the only reason. So reducing everything - sickness, tsunami, misfortune - to karma makes little sense, not to mention it is heartless. We simply have to understand that life is full of sorrow (karma or no karma) and that the Buddha's path is all about liberating oneself from it.
Everything that happens is the result of cause and conditions. Lots of different causes and conditions coming together. One's karma (or results of previous actions) is but one cause in vast number of causes. It is why to attempt to trace the reason for X occurring to one's karma is wrong effort.
However, what karma does directly influence is how we perceive the things that do happen. Our thoughts are our karma. If you accept that attachment and suffering are ultimately caused simply because of misperception, then you can see the importance of planting good seeds for the future right now.
It is why some people that appear to have the most reason to be suffering (unfair life) are not the ones that suffer the most.
Karma is not a stick to beat people with. It could be one of the many reasons why things happen - NOT the only reason. So reducing everything - sickness, tsunami, misfortune - to karma makes little sense, not to mention it is heartless. We simply have to understand that life is full of sorrow (karma or no karma) and that the Buddha's path is all about liberating oneself from it.
I am disagreeing with that. There is no ' bad' karma. Karma is action. Some actions have consequences which we experience as negative.
Comments
In the first passage you wrote, "It's hopeless guessing about these things."
In the second passage you wrote, "Guessing about what the possibilties are is not hopeless. "
As someone who has been diagnosed with a terminal illness I have given a shitload of thought to these questions.
Bottom line - I have no idea why these things happen. Is it fair that I have this illness at a young age (38)? Is it fair that I may die before my daughter grows into adulthood? Is it fair that this disease may be genetic and my daughter may already have it herself? Is it fair that my parents may see themselves outlive their child? Is it fair that I have always tried to "do the right thing" at the expense of my own happiness many times in the past and not reaped "good" karma for it?
The answer to those questions and many others is "No, of course not". I can't answer them and I won't waste the time I have left trying to figure it out.
So I have to say that @vinlyn is correct in saying:
Yes, sometimes life is unfair.
There is no straightforward answer. You answer truthfully when asked - "I don't know"
In metta.
Raven
I find more evidence for Darwinian evolution, which means our time is short, our chance for enlightenment limited but possible.
The chances of a dead kid are limited to the point of non existence, unless you prefer theories of the continuity of consciousness. Which may seem an attractive possibility . . .
Fantasy and hope can be powerful. The truth can be dukkha. There is a solution . . .
Sabbe sankhara anicca
Sabbe sankhara dukkha
Sabbe dhamma anatta
All conditioned things are impermanent,
All conditioned things are suffering,
All things are without a self. May you find peace.
With metta
When it helps people to believe that someone else’s misfortune is “just” or in line with the laws of karma or that it is God’s will; and they find comfort in that; it stinks.
It is the comfort of blaming the victim.
When someone else suffers, instead of judging or blaming them, we could feel compassion.
When we suffer, we need to have some compassion for ourselves too.
The example of drugs-abuse leading to health-problems as a black and white example of the working of karma, is maybe not so clear. Addiction is a complex problem and there is little fairness in the way addiction is distributed. People may get addicted (partly) because they are genetically more vulnerable to addiction; People may have psychological problem prior to the drug-abuse; People who suffered abuse as children are more vulnerable. The problem looks simple only when we don’t really look at all.
is the most acceptable answer?
it is a cop out.
some people seem to think the answer is better than
believing in karma or god's will.
if someone believes in karma, then he is asked
what is the basis of your belief?
but if someone says 'i dont know'
then, fine, pleading ignorance is always the safest route.
that nothing happens without a reason.
there is always a sequence of events that leads to
the present condition.
every effect has its cause.
life is unfair? that is just an interpretation.
I'll take the ignorance title and spend my time left trying to cultivate metta and enjoying time with my family.
Maybe if you have more time left thanme, you can try to understand why your answer comes across as arrogant and condescending.
These are the five factors that give rise to all phenomena.
In the case of a severe illness, kamma-niyama ( karma) is one possibility..but so is uti-niyama which is this context includes environmental factors,( for example someone is raised in a house which exposes them to unsuspected asbestos ) and bija-niyama which includes genetic factors.
And the Buddha specifically warned us( Lakhana Sutta ) against speculating which of the niyamas or combination of same were involved in any particular case.
I fear that your understanding of karma is tainted by the one-to-one, punishment, Hindu view of karma, and this had led you into an uncompassionate and judgemental and simplistic response to others.
Under your post made at 7.33 I reacted to Dhammachick's response with an 'insightful' and realised too late that I appeared to be endorsing your view. I wasn't.
Be kind but not sloppy, be honest but not painfully so.
Life is precious. Be ready to leave at a moments notice and . . . well how wonderful is that . . .
and if the only kind you know is as sloppy as a dog . . . be a dog . . .
Everything just so. :wave:
in a state of suffering if they are reborn as humans.
so, maybe baby hitler2 is born blind and without legs.
put the scenario above to any buddhist monk and he will tell you
it is consistent with budhdha's teachings.
About 5 years ago, I entered a very introspective period. A lot of questions were asked, a lot of searching. I didn't work for 2 years, I was a bit of a hermit, I concluded in one thing, karma. For me, karma is my equilibrium, at least, that is what I have been given through my belief in karma.
It's a total acceptance of the awful things that have happened, and passed, and a total belief in reaping what you sow, and it underpins everything. Every nightmare scenario, every crap day, yes I get angry still, fed up, struggle, but that karma underpin is always there, and I struggled a lot more before it. But like anything, thought process are a habit. Sometimes you just have to remind yourself of what you know, what it is that you really believe in.
If there is no "I" then there is no "you" that recieves a positive nor negative reaping of the actions. It just feels like it is, because that is how it is to be alive, a human. The results will reap, because (the results of) karma isn't truncated by a subjective, human view of fair and unfair. I see it as totally pure.
Trying to put into words something that you intuitively feel, is not easy!
bad karma causes suffering,
is anyone disagreeing with that?
to say that karma is heartless is to miss the point totally.
karma is as heartless as gravity.
However, what karma does directly influence is how we perceive the things that do happen. Our thoughts are our karma. If you accept that attachment and suffering are ultimately caused simply because of misperception, then you can see the importance of planting good seeds for the future right now.
It is why some people that appear to have the most reason to be suffering (unfair life) are not the ones that suffer the most.
There is no ' bad' karma. Karma is action. Some actions have consequences which we experience as negative.
In metta,
Raven