Nothing can be done

betaboy

One can perform actions such as going from point a to point b. But in mind related matters, physical laws like space,time dont apply. So one cannot work toward enlightenment. It is either there or not.
one can do nothing.

genkaku

... and doing nothing is no small matter.

Jeffrey

Why don't laws of space and time exist in mind? My lama agrees with you but aside from the Nagarjuna analysis it is hard to see that there is no path. There is an eightfold path. But words get confused and one needs understanding underneath words. So I wondered if you could explain your realization to me.

Gui

People say nothing is impossible, but I do it everyday
-Winnie the Pooh

betaboy

genkaku said:

... and doing nothing is no small matter.

nothing can be done is not the same as consciously trying to do nothing.

lobster

betaboy said:

nothing can be done is not the same as consciously trying to do nothing.

Conscious effort to 'do nothing' is doomed to wasted effort. Sitting, for example, is not 'doing nothing'. It is doing nothing about something. When the something ceases, Nothing sits.

So what we have is strain and effort - doing . . . and also 'nothing can be done' = nihilism and . . ,
then we have sitting at ease, without doing nothing, something or otherwise engaged in effort . . .

So simple.
Same time tomorrow?
:wave:

DairyLama

betaboy said:

One can perform actions such as going from point a to point b. But in mind related matters, physical laws like space,time dont apply. So one cannot work toward enlightenment. It is either there or not.
one can do nothing.

And yet our actions are shaped by our state of mind, and our state of mind is constantly changing. So which direction do you want your state of mind to go in?

betaboy

All I am saying is, enlightenment happens - we cant make it happen through effort. It happens when it will.

seeker242

betaboy said:

All I am saying is, enlightenment happens - we cant make it happen through effort. It happens when it will.

Then why did the Buddha include right effort as part of the eight fold path? Do you think it's strange that you always come to conclusions that are the opposite of what the Buddha taught? I think that's strange!

:om:

David

Nothing can be done? From my view nothing can't even be started.

Cinorjer

betaboy said:

One can perform actions such as going from point a to point b. But in mind related matters, physical laws like space,time dont apply. So one cannot work toward enlightenment. It is either there or not.
one can do nothing.

Then do nothing to the best of your ability. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice.

DairyLama

betaboy said:

All I am saying is, enlightenment happens - we cant make it happen through effort. It happens when it will.

But we can create the right conditions. That's what the 8-fold path is for.

Jeffrey

What is nothing? Can you taste it smell it or think about it?

Dakini

Gui said:

People say doing nothing is impossible, but I do it every day.

The original Pooh did not say that. You're quoting Disney Pooh. Disney Pooh is an impostor. Though still not a bad teacher, I guess...

zenff

betaboy said:

All I am saying is, enlightenment happens - we cant make it happen through effort. It happens when it will.

Sudden Enlightenment versus the Gradual Path; that’s an old one!

Nagarjuna explained it, I think.
There’s a Path but this Path and the whole context of the Path are empty.
Measured in concepts there is progress and there is something to attain.
Measured in no-concepts you could say that “nothing can be done” but that’s only half of it.

Also nothing will happen, I’d say.
Enlightenment does not happen. Not here (not in absolute reality).
What would be the context? Where? When? Who? Why?


Just do what the moment asks.
Dink your tea.

AllbuddhaBound

Is doing what we call nothing, really the answer? Is it all about waiting (which is doing something by the way) or does our concept fail to grasp "the answer".

vinlyn

Things don't just happen, ya gotta make them happen.

zenff

That's a conventional truth.

vinlyn

Oh, so enlightenment just happens to you, and you have nothing to do with it.

Jeffrey

@vinlyn, in my readings it does have to do with you. The first stage of the path is called accumulation and this is when in your actual daily life you begin questioning and trying to sort it all out. You are hungry for new teachings and experimenting with meditation. Nobody else can do this for you.

vinlyn

Exactly.

zenff

vinlyn said:

Oh, so enlightenment just happens to you, and you have nothing to do with it.

No, it (enlightenment) doesn’t even happen. That’s what I said.
In absolute truth, measured in no-concepts, it can’t even happen.

Not doing something to get enlightened. Not "doing nothing" and hoping that enlightenment will happen to you.
Just forgetting about it and practicing for the sake of practicing. That seems the closest thing, but is not exactly to the point either; it sounds too much like giving up on it.

(When I try to explain the idea, I must sound ridiculous. I have the vague notion that what Lao Tzu says is correct; people who speak do not know about it, people who know do not speak about it).

David

There is no such thing as nothing. It cannot be done nor can it be attained.

If enlightenment is something to attain, it wont happen either.

Questions go unanswered when the answers go unquestioned.

Jeffrey

This is from Trungpa Rinpoche's book about the lojong (mind training):

Point four and the paramita of exertion

The fourth point of the seven points of mind training is connected with the paramita of exertion. Exertion basically means being free from laziness. When we use the word lazy, we are talking about a general lack of mindfulness and a lack of joy in discipline. When your mind is mixed with dharma, when you have already become a dharmic person, then the connection has already been made. Therefore, you have no problem dealing with laziness. But if you have not made that connection, there might be some problems.

We could discuss exertion in terms of developing joy and appreciation for what you think you are doing. It is like taking a holiday trip: you are very inspired to wake up in the morning because you are expecting to have a tremendous experience. Exertion is like the minute before you wake up on a holiday trip you have a sense of trusting you are going to have a good time, but at the same time you have to put your effort into it. So exertion is some kind of celebration and joy, which is free from laziness.

It has been said in the scriptures that without exertion you cannot journey on the path at all. We have also said that without the legs of discipline you cannot walk on the path--but even if you have those legs, if you don't have exertions, you can't take any steps. Exertion involves a sense of pushing yourself step by step, little by little. You are actually connecting yourself to the path as you are walking on it. Nevertheless, you are also experiencing some kind of resistance. But that resistance could be overcome by overcoming laziness, by ceasing to dwell in the entertainment of your subconscious gosip, discursive thoughts, and emotionalism of all kinds.

The fourth point of mind training deals with completing your training in your life altogether, from the living situation you are in now until your death. So we are discussing things you can do while you are alive and when you are dying. These two slogans are instructions on how to lead your life

misterCope

We are made up of tiny spinning particles that are comparatively as far away from each other as the moon is from the Earth. So, if you think about it, you're not even really here. You're just not not here.

Therefore, nothing can be done. That is to say, nothing can be done. You're doing it right now. Or being it right now, I guess. Are being and doing two different things? It's nothing to argue about. I mean, to argue about it is nothing.

But what does that have to do with anything?

Nirvana

enlightenedjoy said:

All I am saying is, Hangups happen - we can't make them happen through effort. They just afflict us 'cause they can.

"I wanna be better than I am. I cannot be what I still am. Someday I'll get away to that magical state."


HA HA HA HA

What Nonsense!

Religions are just carazy. Carazy.

(And as somebody said on this forum a few days ago, Buddhism is a religion.)

KISS.

Jeffrey

@enlightenedboy
Some day you will surely get to a magical state so take heart. However, if you aren't careful you will not integrate that practice with the dharma of losing I, me, and mine. For example if you follow the right method eventually you might (if lucky) attain jhana. But if you don't use the jhana practice in the right way with respect to awareness practice jhana itself can be a craving and it can be impermanent. Possibly terrible suffering.

So don't think you won't feel pleasure ever. The nature of the mind is to appreciate experience. We feel bad because we are in our infested cramped cacoons. By practicing dharma you will tune up your mind. The mind without the kleshas is quite fine just as it is. Even bad stuff is just sensitivity for a Bodhisattva. You can do it!!!

Jeffrey

To extend that of course jhana comes with losing I, me, and mine. But it is only temporary. And the reason it is temporary is that it is an experience. I am having the experience of jhana. For that reason the experience just ends. So if it is a thing you experience then it is not perfect equanimity.

pegembara

betaboy said:

One can perform actions such as going from point a to point b. But in mind related matters, physical laws like space,time dont apply. So one cannot work toward enlightenment. It is either there or not.
one can do nothing.

Working towards enlightenment - yes. Attaining something - no.

There is nothing to gain and nothing to lose. If anything - what is lost is an ignorance that there is something, and a craving that there is not enough - and that is all one loses.

For one stranded in the middle of the lake,
in the flood of great danger — birth —
overwhelmed with aging & death,
I will tell you the island, Kappa.

Having nothing,
clinging to no thing:
That is the island,
there is no other.
That's Unbinding, I tell you,
the total ending of aging & death.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.5.10.than.html

Nirvana

Apologies to all whom I may have offended in this thread!

I was just putting in my two cents' worth in an effort to put forth my belief in the importance of Thinking outside the box.

What would Buiddha think of all this talk about personal enlightenment [enrichment?], when all he wanted was for people to see the fundamental truth about life: that it was bound for misery if grasped too tightly.????

The Buddhas and Christs of the world want humanity to be Free, but all too often their followers create cults which obfuscate a lot of what they taught....

Lee82

betaboy said:

All I am saying is, enlightenment happens - we cant make it happen through effort. It happens when it will.

Shit happens, we can't avoid it through effort. It happens when it will.

Jason

betaboy said:

One can perform actions such as going from point a to point b. But in mind related matters, physical laws like space,time dont apply. So one cannot work toward enlightenment. It is either there or not.
one can do nothing.

I don't see why not. One can train their mind to do any number of things, and one can preform mental actions just as they can bodily ones. If one can work towards things like understanding calculus or learning a second language, why can't they also work towards more fully understanding their mind and reliquishing the mental causes of suffering?

Gui

One of the most wonderful things I have learned from Buddhism is how to do no thing. How to be no thing.