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Nicki Minaj’s disgraceful photoshoot in front of a Buddha statue."
People crouch down in front of Buddha statues all the time. And they get their pctures taken by statues also. If there is a problem with doing it in a bathing suit, it should be taken up with the people who put one by a swimming pool.
I can't be certain, but that looks pretty much like an old Buddha from upcountry Thailand...could be from Ayutthaya, Sukhothai, or Kampang Phet regions.
Well, first of all, I'm not sure anyone here is "worked up" over this. We're just discussing it from different perspectives.
But if you believe that compassion is important, then you should be concerned about the reasonable feelings of others...even if those feelings don't match yours.
A couple of days ago, Lincoln posted something about how important this website/forum is to him. So why don't we just tear it apart? Why don't we go and piss on the Martin Luther King statue in Washington? Why don't we go shit on the lap of Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial? Why? Because respect is important. Denigrating something that important to another shows no respect or compassion.
And, in my view, if you don't get that, then you really don't get it. Yet, generally speaking, you seem to respect the views of other people on this forum even when you don't agree with them. Why...if stuff like this "seems pointless"? Why not just let it all hang out.
I think this whole thing presents a good opportunity for us to practice and observe the way the mind clings and causes suffering for itself. The statue is just form, rupa, and isn't harmed by anyone taking pictures with it (it wouldn't even suffer if it were smashed by a hammer). But it's very easy for us to become so attached to this material form and what it represents that we become angry, indignant, or offended over a pop star taking a photo next to it.
One the one hand, we feel justified in our agitation, indignation, and offense. We feel that disrespect is being show to a 'sacred' object, offending our religious beliefs, and that our feelings should be taken into consideration and accommodated (i.e., the photo should be taken down from Facebook). On the other, the statue isn't offended or harmed, and the reality is that it's our attachment to this form, this earth property, that conditions suffering when something we don't like happens to it. But form isn't the Buddha; form isn't ours nor belongs to us:
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind. (MN 140)
Our feelings and emotions may tell us that her bhikkini photo next to the Buddharupa was wrong and offensive, but the Dhamm tells us that it's our attachment to form that's truly causing offense and the source of our suffering, however small it may be. Moreover, our feelings and emotions may tell us that the solution is to try and change Nicki Minaj's Facebook page and/or to her shame her carelessness, but the Dhamma tells us a more skillful solution is to let go of what isn't ours.
Here the Bhikkhu contemplates this body from the soles of the feet upward, and back again from the top of the hair downward, seeing it as frame of bones with a skin stretched over it, and filled with much filthy putrescence such as: head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, vomit, spleen, diaphragm, lungs, intestine, mesentery, stomach, excrement, brain, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin, tallow, spit, slime, snot, joint-fluid, & urine.
Being full of vomit, feces, urine, spit and snot, yes! This picture could be considered disgusting!
I am responsible for what I do. I would not piss or spit or denigrate another's beliefs or icons, knowing that doing this may cause someone else to suffer in some fashion, but I am not responsible for what someone else does, nor am I attached to it.
Publicity stunt. i remember when a muslim smashed up a buddha image at the Erawan shrine in Bangkok and various mob gathered and beat the guy to death right there . Not very Buddhist in my view .It was only a statue .
Publicity stunt. i remember when a muslim smashed up a buddha image at the Erawan shrine in Bangkok and various mob gathered and beat the guy to death right there . Not very Buddhist in my view .It was only a statue .
Actually, it wasn't a Buddha image. It is a Hindu shrine, and the perpetrator had apparently been undergoing psychiatric treatment. You can read a bit about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erawan_Shrine ... although there are many references to the incident on the web because it had major political ramifications, as well.
Why don't we go and piss on the Martin Luther King statue in Washington? Why don't we go shit on the lap of Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial? Why? Because respect is important. Denigrating something that important to another shows no respect or compassion.
Bit of a straw man argument, @vinlyn. No one is pissing or shitting on a Buddha statue, but that is what intrigues me. If a girl in a bikini crouched down beside a swimming pool no one would take any notice. It probably happens every day and no one takes offence. But apparently the presence of a Buddha statue makes such an innocuous act offensive.
Whether or not the statues of political icons like Martin Luther King or Lincoln deserve respect is another issue and belongs in another discussion.
Here the Bhikkhu contemplates this body from the soles of the feet upward, and back again from the top of the hair downward, seeing it as frame of bones with a skin stretched over it, and filled with much filthy putrescence such as: head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, vomit, spleen, diaphragm, lungs, intestine, mesentery, stomach, excrement, brain, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin, tallow, spit, slime, snot, joint-fluid, & urine.
Being full of vomit, feces, urine, spit and snot, yes! This picture could be considered disgusting!
This is the age of the internet. I'm sure there are websites where people can pay to watch pretty girls posing with vomit, feces, etc. Isn't Rule 34 the simple statement that whatever it is, there is porn of it?
Respect of course is important but I couldnt see Ghandi kicking someones head in because he pissed on the Gita for example . The message is more than the book .
Why don't we go and piss on the Martin Luther King statue in Washington? Why don't we go shit on the lap of Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial? Why? Because respect is important. Denigrating something that important to another shows no respect or compassion.
Bit of a straw man argument, @vinlyn. No one is pissing or shitting on a Buddha statue, but that is what intrigues me. If a girl in a bikini crouched down beside a swimming pool no one would take any notice. It probably happens every day and no one takes offence. But apparently the presence of a Buddha statue makes such an innocuous act offensive.
Whether or not the statues of political icons like Martin Luther King or Lincoln deserve respect is another issue and belongs in another discussion.
No, because you are looking at a different point than I am making. It's not about whether a statue of Buddha or Kim Jung Il or Abe Lincoln deserve more or less respect. It's about whether the people who respect those different historical figures deserve respect and non-offense.
If you truly believe in compassion you show respect toward the beliefs of others. It doesn't matter whether you or they are correct.
And I have to admit that although I have become increasingly critical of Thai society over recent years, the Thais can be very good at being gentle with the beliefs of others. When you disrespect a statue of Buddha, you are actually disrespecting Buddhists. When you disrespect a statue of George Washington, you are actually disrespecting Americans. And disrespect is the opposite of compassion.
I am missing your point here vinlyn. Is there a solution to the problem? What should she do? There are likely more people who are offended by her bikini than who are offended by the statue being present. I, for one, don't care for poses like one of the others in that series that has her behind thrust at the camera. I guess I'm not an ass man. I've seen enough of Nicki Manaj and don't know any of her music, and won't have to look at it again. Television, movies, music and particularly the Internet is topped up with offensive material. People should learn to avert their eyes from things that make them upset. It's that or spend their time lobbying politicians to shut down all media.
I am missing your point here vinlyn. Is there a solution to the problem? What should she do? There are likely more people who are offended by her bikini than who are offended by the statue being present. I, for one, don't care for poses like one of the others in that series that has her behind thrust at the camera. I guess I'm not an ass man. I've seen enough of Nicki Manaj and don't know any of her music, and won't have to look at it again. Television, movies, music and particularly the Internet is topped up with offensive material. People should learn to avert their eyes from things that make them upset. It's that or spend their time lobbying politicians to shut down all media.
There is no solution to what has already occurred.
The challenge...particularly in our hip hop world...is to continue to teach that respecting the values of others (even when you don't agree with them) is doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I am reminded of something that happened way back in the late 1970s when I was still teaching. We had a ninth grader who was obsessed with the rock group Kiss...and I do mean obsessed. He was always whining about how the teachers and other adults didn't respect his music. One day he asked me what kind of music I liked. When I said, "Oh people like Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and Perry Como", he became very sarcastic. After he had his say, I responded with, "So let's see, you want me to respect bands like Kiss and [I rattled off a long list of other bands of the era that surprised him], but you don't want to respect my musical tastes. Do you think that's fair?" He was silent for quite a long time, and finally responded with, "I get what you're saying."
There was quite a dust-up recently when CNN anchor Don Lemon was critical of the behavior of today's Black youth. Things went back and forth for a while, and then Lemon had Russell Simmons on for a long discussion. It was very interesting to see the two opposite sides together talking...and how toned down the conversation was when they were face to face.
There's a tendency in today's culture to think that everything needs to be said just for the sake of being able to, and everything needs to be done just for the sake of being able to. Instead, we as Buddhists ought to be sticking to -- and teaching -- right intention, right speech, and right action. And that's what the uproar toward Minaj is really all about.
It's her actions...not ours, though...right? . What in the world does Don Lemon have to do with this? I don't get that example.
...
It's about her actions...and our reactions.
Manaj is part of the culture of behaviors which Don Lemon found unacceptable...part of the culture of behaviors that many Buddhists find unacceptable. And the folks that are the out-front examples of Minaj's hip-hop/rap subcultures (whether it be Minaj or 50 Cent or Kanye West) are constantly ranting about deserving respect...yet they often don't give respect except to some within their own subculture. And, to me, the response to disrespectful behavior is saying -- if you want to be respected, you need to give respect...do unto others...
I am lumping all this together in a bigger picture. What do you think might happen if people gave others the amount of respect that they expect for themselves? For example, the Palestinians versus the Israelis. The Christians versus the Muslims. Etc.
Respect and disrespect is one of the most important ingredients in human culture. Always has been. Always will be. Its' there from kindergarten to old age.
When you disrespect a statue of Buddha, you are actually disrespecting Buddhists. When you disrespect a statue of George Washington, you are actually disrespecting Americans. And disrespect is the opposite of compassion.
But you are still not explaining why crouching down in a bikini is disrespectful.
I don't agree that a statue represents a group of people. That seems the antithesis of what the Buddha taught. Identifying with any object is a manifestation of grasping.
Two US Army vets standing side by side. One holds the US flag high because he served in the war. One spits on a US flag on the ground because he served in the war. One symbol has many meanings to many people. Do we curtail their freedoms out of concern of hurting someone's feelings? Not by law, but by cultural norms.
When you disrespect a statue of Buddha, you are actually disrespecting Buddhists. When you disrespect a statue of George Washington, you are actually disrespecting Americans. And disrespect is the opposite of compassion.
But you are still not explaining why crouching down in a bikini is disrespectful.
I don't agree that a statue represents a group of people. That seems the antithesis of what the Buddha taught. Identifying with any object is a manifestation of grasping.
I accept that you don't get what I'm saying and you don't agree with my view.
Two US Army vets standing side by side. One holds the US flag high because he served in the war. One spits on a US flag on the ground because he served in the war. One symbol has many meanings to many people. Do we curtail their freedoms out of concern of hurting someone's feelings? Not by law, but by cultural norms.
Now that's a good question.
My answer is that it goes back to whether it is more important to bring people together or separate them. Right now we've got Republicans down in Washington on one far side of the current issue, and Democrats down in Washington on the other far side of the issue. Is that separation solving the problem?
My father was still in the Air Force during much of the Vietnam War. He was a pretty calm and collected sort of man, so he didn't show much emotion, but I knew he was steamed when, during demonstrations, he was seeing protesters burning and spitting on the flag. So, on one side we had the spitters and burners and on the other side we had the "saluters"...and never the twain shall meet. Each side essentially demanding surrender by the other side.
So, here's my question in return: How many threads have we had about deep respect for Gandhi and MLK? Were either of those men the type who used tactics such as burning and spitting on cultural icons?
Gandhi and MLK weren't the type of men who used such tactics. However, we could debate whether their non-violent, or even non-disrespectful, tactics were effective without the militants who did use violent tactics. That is a debate for another time, but one I have found interesting. A lot of history is neglected when discussing these two leaders. It is my opinion that non-violent movements for liberty are not effective by themselves.
The way I see it, each situation requires its own approach. Some situations require us to be more active, while others require a more passive or reflective approach. Here, I think the most skillful approach is of the latter sort, and I'm reminded of one of my favourite passages from Shantideva:
Where could I possibly find the leather To cover with leather the whole surface of the earth? But with leather just on the soles of my shoes, It's the same as having covered the entire earth's surface.
Likewise, although it's impossible for me To ward off external events; If I would ward off my mind, What need to ward off anything else? (Bodhisattvacharyavatara)
Others have a different opinion about it, however, and that's OK too. We don't all have to agree. But to be honest, I don't think this particular issue is really worth getting too agitated or verbally-combative over. I guess I just think there are more important things to spend our time focused on.
When you disrespect a statue of Buddha, you are actually disrespecting Buddhists. When you disrespect a statue of George Washington, you are actually disrespecting Americans. And disrespect is the opposite of compassion.
But you are still not explaining why crouching down in a bikini is disrespectful.
I don't agree that a statue represents a group of people. That seems the antithesis of what the Buddha taught. Identifying with any object is a manifestation of grasping.
You may not find it disrespectful, but millions of traditional Buddhists might. Right speech/right action entails that we not offend them.
There's a tendency in today's culture to think that everything needs to be said just for the sake of being able to, and everything needs to be done just for the sake of being able to.
Yes, quite right.
I choose to look at and remember that it hasn't been that way in the past nor will it remain into the future.
Instead, we as Buddhists ought to be sticking to -- and teaching -- right intention, right speech, and right action.
We as Human Beings .....
You don't have be a Buddhist to do those things nor does it take a Buddha to inspire it.
And that's what the uproar toward Minaj is really all about.
I'm not so sure any more. I was thinking, what if it was Uma Thurman posing the same way in the same place wearing a black slack suit over a cream turtleneck sweater or Jada Pinkett Smith in blue jeans and a black t-shirt? Would people be equally outraged? Or how about your mother? Mine poses like that all the time when shes looking for something in her cupboards - how would her posing like that behind a Buddha statue be? Or how about Richard Gere? Brad Pitt? Brad Pitt in a Speedo? Robert Redford in a tux?? Your could train an Orangutan to pose like that - would that be ok?
What are we objecting to? A woman with a big butt in a bikini squatting playfully (and a bit provocatively, too) like the Buddha statue nearby. I doubt that anyone involved meant any disrespect. As the Buddha shown in that statue taught that intention is everything.
I wonder if, perhaps through osmosis or some ethereal method, Miss Minaj gained some insight into the human condition from the Buddha statue. Also, maybe the statue learned a little something about how to pose for its next bikini photoshoot. I got a fortune cookie once that said, "you learn from everyone you meet."
You may not find it disrespectful, but millions of traditional Buddhists might. Right speech/right action entails that we not offend them.
Whether or not I find it disrespectful is not the point. And how can anyone presume to know what will offend "millions of traditional Buddhists", whatever that means? Thankfully Buddhism allows us all to decide for ourselves what is right speech/action.
I have no feelings about this whatsoever. What I do find fascinating is the knee-jerk reaction of some posters who don't seem willing to explore their own feelings. I suspect their censure is fuelled by a dislike of a particular celebrity rather than the finer feelings of millions of traditional Buddhists. Although I still don't know what is wrong with that picture other than the fact that she is in it.
Poptart, having lived in Thailand, I'll tell you that in many situations like this it would have been very possible that she would have been arrested. This type of behavior is VERY frowned upon in Thai culture. Hell, I was sternly reprimanded by a lay person at Wat Pathumwanaram in comparatively sophisticated Bangkok for wearing my shoes into the temple's restroom!
You've posted 4 times about a topic about which you "have no feelings about...whatsoever."
If you're talking about me, I've never seen Minaj perform. She is, however, fairly well known because of her involvement in reality television.
Okay, so it doesn't bother you. We get it. But in the old world it would be a significant concern. You don't get that.
What I dislike about this type of behaviour not only because of the disrespect towards the Buddha statue but also how she behaves like this and yet most if not a large amount of her fans are kids of my age or even younger so it is so irresponsible that she behaves like this.
I mean there is nothing wrong with wearing a bikini, I don't mean to be prudish but this is just obviously such a deliberately sexual, inappropriate position like a whole bunch of others she does, it encourages young girls to take shots like these and post them online.
You've posted 4 times about a topic about which you "have no feelings about...whatsoever."
It's a discussion, isn't it? And your opinions always fascinate me, Vinlyn.
When pressed you avoid saying what is actually so offensive in the picture. You resort to straw man arguments and even invoke the American flag to muddy the water. That sounds like someone trying to avoid the issue, don't you think?
But you're right, five posts on one topic is stretching my interest in this to the limit so I'm not going to bother you any more with my pesky questions. May I just leave you with one more thought? If your wife or girlfriend, or your daughter had posed in that photograph would you still feel so offended by it?
Why should Manaj be concerned with the 8fp? How can her behaviour affect anyone's practice of the 8fp? So Buddhists should not disrespect Buddha images. How is it our concern if Manaj does? If intent is important, then how can we say that she has disrespected the Buddha image without knowing her intent? If millions of Thai Buddhists are offended, why are we not hearing from them? Someone please post something that confirms that they are outraged. If they are outraged about this, how can they possibly feel about tens of thousands of their Buddhist daughters and sons being defiled in the sex trade? I say the bulk of Thais are too busy trying to make a living to worry about something so dumb. As I pointed out before, there are Buddha images overseeing the most debauched activities that you can imagine that Thais are involved in. A handful of western Buddhists are outraged. They should give their heads a shake.
...May I just leave you with one more thought? If your wife or girlfriend, or your daughter had posed in that photograph would you still feel so offended by it?
Absolutely. Poor behavior is poor behavior no matter who is doing it. Disrespect is disrespect no matter who is doing it.
Why should Manaj be concerned with the 8fp? How can her behaviour affect anyone's practice of the 8fp? So Buddhists should not disrespect Buddha images. How is it our concern if Manaj does? If intent is important, then how can we say that she has disrespected the Buddha image without knowing her intent? If millions of Thai Buddhists are offended, why are we not hearing from them? Someone please post something that confirms that they are outraged. If they are outraged about this, how can they possibly feel about tens of thousands of their Buddhist daughters and sons being defiled in the sex trade? I say the bulk of Thais are too busy trying to make a living to worry about something so dumb. As I pointed out before, there are Buddha images overseeing the most debauched activities that you can imagine that Thais are involved in. A handful of western Buddhists are outraged. They should give their heads a shake.
Using the exact same thinking, why should we be concerned with any inappropriate behavior. Some people went nuts on this forum a few weeks ago when Bradley Manning was sentenced. Why should we be concerned? Why should we be concerned about the underage sex trade? World hunger? Buddhists fighting Muslims in Burma. I'll tell you why I'm concerned...because to many young people in this country, Manaj is a role model. And disrespect breeds more disrespect. It's exponential.
And don't make assumptions about what values the bulk of Thais have. Don't think that what goes on in Pat Pong and Soi Cowboy are what the vast of majority of Thais want to see in their country.
And finally, I will repeat what I have said in this thread several times already -- no one here -- including me -- is outraged. But some of us are concerned and disgusted.
This I dont find offensive . i mean a girl in a bikini .That may bother monks who are celibate but I thought the Buddha was ok with it . I do find it offensive of American troops to flush Korans down the toilet though .That is just plain nastiness .And those that suggest Jesus was a gay too. Got to get a bit of perspective on things .
Interesting thread. We have people pointing out that "it's only a statue and people so people shouldn't get too worked up" and that's true. We have posters also pointing out that whatever people should or shouldn't do, they obviously do get upset so we should try to avoid that, and it's also true.
It's no secret that symbols have power, and religious symbols more powerful than most. You might be above such attachment to symbols, but 99.9 percent of humanity feels that insulting the symbol is the same as insulting the worshiper. People are willing to die and worse, kill over symbols.
Even at the beginning of Buddhism, the personal assistant Ananda was put on trial at the first conference for, among other actions, accidentally stepping on Buddha's robe.
There is a rather famous story and koan that Master Seung wrote, "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" that addresses this problem. To paraphrase, I'm in your house and I flick some cigarette ashes on a statue of Buddha and tell you that doesn't bother me one bit, so that means I'm more enlightened than you. I'm free from attachment to objects, unlike you who bow to this statue, so symbols have no power over me. What do you tell this man? Is his behavior wrong? How do you explain his wrong behavior to him?
Actually, it was mentioned earlier... but looking at the photo, it is clearly at a swimming pool or resort area. Those are clearly tanning chairs (not meditation cushions! LOL) in the background.
In other words, this woman is not the only bikini clad woman to have posed, lay out in the sun, swim, or whatever at this location. Only this is apparently a celebrity (who I've never even heard of before this thread and still have no idea who she is) who took a photo and it went public. But bikini clad women are within feet of this Buddha statue daily!
It would seem to me that if there is even a problem to address, it is the resort's use of the Buddha statue as decoration by their swimming pool. Obviously the Buddha statue isn't being used for any other purpose. It doesn't matter to me either way-- but I'd at least sympathize more the desire to have the statue removed from the resort.
Why should Manaj be concerned with the 8fp? How can her behaviour affect anyone's practice of the 8fp? So Buddhists should not disrespect Buddha images. How is it our concern if Manaj does? If intent is important, then how can we say that she has disrespected the Buddha image without knowing her intent? If millions of Thai Buddhists are offended, why are we not hearing from them? Someone please post something that confirms that they are outraged. If they are outraged about this, how can they possibly feel about tens of thousands of their Buddhist daughters and sons being defiled in the sex trade? I say the bulk of Thais are too busy trying to make a living to worry about something so dumb. As I pointed out before, there are Buddha images overseeing the most debauched activities that you can imagine that Thais are involved in. A handful of western Buddhists are outraged. They should give their heads a shake.
Using the exact same thinking, why should we be concerned with any inappropriate behavior. Some people went nuts on this forum a few weeks ago when Bradley Manning was sentenced. Why should we be concerned? Why should we be concerned about the underage sex trade? World hunger? Buddhists fighting Muslims in Burma. I'll tell you why I'm concerned...because to many young people in this country, Manaj is a role model. And disrespect breeds more disrespect. It's exponential.
And don't make assumptions about what values the bulk of Thais have. Don't think that what goes on in Pat Pong and Soi Cowboy are what the vast of majority of Thais want to see in their country.
And finally, I will repeat what I have said in this thread several times already -- no one here -- including me -- is outraged. But some of us are concerned and disgusted.
I don't think these few pictures can compare to world hunger and child prostitution. Nor do I think that they will promote those things. As for teaching our children disrespect, I have to disagree. The pictures are not pornographic. At least I don't see how even the most innocent teenage boy would find them titillating. She is not touching the statue. Nor does she have her feet toward it, which may be interpreted as a sign of respect on her part. They certainly are pretty tame compared to what is in the video games that most young people are exposed to daily.
Of course Thais are not paying attention to this. Their media is not covering it because it's no big deal. That petition has 2600 signatures. It's not millions. You could get 26000 signatures overnight on a petition to leave the pictures up, if it was posted in the right place.
I am not assuming that all Thais support the sex trade. I have been all over that country, and choose to believe that most Thais do not support it, although I don't know that for a fact. And you know it's not just Pat pong and Soi Cowboy. Sadly it's quite widespread in most of the tourist areas. What I am saying is that if they are not outraged enough to demand a stop to the sex tourism business, why would you assume that they are giving these pictures a second thought.
We can agree that Buddhists should not pose with a Buddha statue in their bathing suits. Non Buddhists can do what they want. I understand that we are just sharing opinions here. Not really trying to change anyone's mind.
Comments
This isn't a sacred or consecrated space nor do I believe that the statue itself qualifies.
Anybody can have a statue of the Buddha and a Stupa by their pool. Doesn't mean a thing.
But if you believe that compassion is important, then you should be concerned about the reasonable feelings of others...even if those feelings don't match yours.
A couple of days ago, Lincoln posted something about how important this website/forum is to him. So why don't we just tear it apart? Why don't we go and piss on the Martin Luther King statue in Washington? Why don't we go shit on the lap of Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial? Why? Because respect is important. Denigrating something that important to another shows no respect or compassion.
And, in my view, if you don't get that, then you really don't get it. Yet, generally speaking, you seem to respect the views of other people on this forum even when you don't agree with them. Why...if stuff like this "seems pointless"? Why not just let it all hang out.
One the one hand, we feel justified in our agitation, indignation, and offense. We feel that disrespect is being show to a 'sacred' object, offending our religious beliefs, and that our feelings should be taken into consideration and accommodated (i.e., the photo should be taken down from Facebook). On the other, the statue isn't offended or harmed, and the reality is that it's our attachment to this form, this earth property, that conditions suffering when something we don't like happens to it. But form isn't the Buddha; form isn't ours nor belongs to us: Our feelings and emotions may tell us that her bhikkini photo next to the Buddharupa was wrong and offensive, but the Dhamm tells us that it's our attachment to form that's truly causing offense and the source of our suffering, however small it may be. Moreover, our feelings and emotions may tell us that the solution is to try and change Nicki Minaj's Facebook page and/or to her shame her carelessness, but the Dhamma tells us a more skillful solution is to let go of what isn't ours.
Whether or not the statues of political icons like Martin Luther King or Lincoln deserve respect is another issue and belongs in another discussion.
This is the age of the internet. I'm sure there are websites where people can pay to watch pretty girls posing with vomit, feces, etc. Isn't Rule 34 the simple statement that whatever it is, there is porn of it?
If you truly believe in compassion you show respect toward the beliefs of others. It doesn't matter whether you or they are correct.
And I have to admit that although I have become increasingly critical of Thai society over recent years, the Thais can be very good at being gentle with the beliefs of others. When you disrespect a statue of Buddha, you are actually disrespecting Buddhists. When you disrespect a statue of George Washington, you are actually disrespecting Americans. And disrespect is the opposite of compassion.
There are likely more people who are offended by her bikini than who are offended by the statue being present.
I, for one, don't care for poses like one of the others in that series that has her behind thrust at the camera. I guess I'm not an ass man. I've seen enough of Nicki Manaj and don't know any of her music, and won't have to look at it again.
Television, movies, music and particularly the Internet is topped up with offensive material. People should learn to avert their eyes from things that make them upset. It's that or spend their time lobbying politicians to shut down all media.
I have been taught in Buddhism to be more offended by the
nakedness and what it represents than the pretend respect of
the statue.
The challenge...particularly in our hip hop world...is to continue to teach that respecting the values of others (even when you don't agree with them) is doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I am reminded of something that happened way back in the late 1970s when I was still teaching. We had a ninth grader who was obsessed with the rock group Kiss...and I do mean obsessed. He was always whining about how the teachers and other adults didn't respect his music. One day he asked me what kind of music I liked. When I said, "Oh people like Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and Perry Como", he became very sarcastic. After he had his say, I responded with, "So let's see, you want me to respect bands like Kiss and [I rattled off a long list of other bands of the era that surprised him], but you don't want to respect my musical tastes. Do you think that's fair?" He was silent for quite a long time, and finally responded with, "I get what you're saying."
There was quite a dust-up recently when CNN anchor Don Lemon was critical of the behavior of today's Black youth. Things went back and forth for a while, and then Lemon had Russell Simmons on for a long discussion. It was very interesting to see the two opposite sides together talking...and how toned down the conversation was when they were face to face.
There's a tendency in today's culture to think that everything needs to be said just for the sake of being able to, and everything needs to be done just for the sake of being able to. Instead, we as Buddhists ought to be sticking to -- and teaching -- right intention, right speech, and right action. And that's what the uproar toward Minaj is really all about.
What in the world does Don Lemon have to do with this?
I don't get that example.
Where is @LeonBasin? What are you thinking ....?
Manaj is part of the culture of behaviors which Don Lemon found unacceptable...part of the culture of behaviors that many Buddhists find unacceptable. And the folks that are the out-front examples of Minaj's hip-hop/rap subcultures (whether it be Minaj or 50 Cent or Kanye West) are constantly ranting about deserving respect...yet they often don't give respect except to some within their own subculture. And, to me, the response to disrespectful behavior is saying -- if you want to be respected, you need to give respect...do unto others...
I am lumping all this together in a bigger picture. What do you think might happen if people gave others the amount of respect that they expect for themselves? For example, the Palestinians versus the Israelis. The Christians versus the Muslims. Etc.
Respect and disrespect is one of the most important ingredients in human culture. Always has been. Always will be. Its' there from kindergarten to old age.
All her nakedness is disrespecting me....
I don't agree that a statue represents a group of people. That seems the antithesis of what the Buddha taught. Identifying with any object is a manifestation of grasping.
One holds the US flag high because he served in the war.
One spits on a US flag on the ground because he served in the war.
One symbol has many meanings to many people. Do we curtail their freedoms out of concern of hurting someone's feelings? Not by law, but by cultural norms.
My answer is that it goes back to whether it is more important to bring people together or separate them. Right now we've got Republicans down in Washington on one far side of the current issue, and Democrats down in Washington on the other far side of the issue. Is that separation solving the problem?
My father was still in the Air Force during much of the Vietnam War. He was a pretty calm and collected sort of man, so he didn't show much emotion, but I knew he was steamed when, during demonstrations, he was seeing protesters burning and spitting on the flag. So, on one side we had the spitters and burners and on the other side we had the "saluters"...and never the twain shall meet. Each side essentially demanding surrender by the other side.
So, here's my question in return: How many threads have we had about deep respect for Gandhi and MLK? Were either of those men the type who used tactics such as burning and spitting on cultural icons?
I choose to look at and remember that it hasn't been that way in the past nor will it remain into the future.
We as Human Beings .....
You don't have be a Buddhist to do those things nor does it take a Buddha to inspire it. I'm not so sure any more. I was thinking, what if it was Uma Thurman posing the same way in the same place wearing a black slack suit over a cream turtleneck sweater or Jada Pinkett Smith in blue jeans and a black t-shirt? Would people be equally outraged? Or how about your mother? Mine poses like that all the time when shes looking for something in her cupboards - how would her posing like that behind a Buddha statue be? Or how about Richard Gere? Brad Pitt? Brad Pitt in a Speedo? Robert Redford in a tux?? Your could train an Orangutan to pose like that - would that be ok?
What are we objecting to? A woman with a big butt in a bikini squatting playfully (and a bit provocatively, too) like the Buddha statue nearby. I doubt that anyone involved meant any disrespect. As the Buddha shown in that statue taught that intention is everything.
I have no feelings about this whatsoever. What I do find fascinating is the knee-jerk reaction of some posters who don't seem willing to explore their own feelings. I suspect their censure is fuelled by a dislike of a particular celebrity rather than the finer feelings of millions of traditional Buddhists. Although I still don't know what is wrong with that picture other than the fact that she is in it.
You've posted 4 times about a topic about which you "have no feelings about...whatsoever."
If you're talking about me, I've never seen Minaj perform. She is, however, fairly well known because of her involvement in reality television.
Okay, so it doesn't bother you. We get it. But in the old world it would be a significant concern. You don't get that.
I mean there is nothing wrong with wearing a bikini, I don't mean to be prudish but this is just obviously such a deliberately sexual, inappropriate position like a whole bunch of others she does, it encourages young girls to take shots like these and post them online.
When pressed you avoid saying what is actually so offensive in the picture. You resort to straw man arguments and even invoke the American flag to muddy the water. That sounds like someone trying to avoid the issue, don't you think?
But you're right, five posts on one topic is stretching my interest in this to the limit so I'm not going to bother you any more with my pesky questions. May I just leave you with one more thought? If your wife or girlfriend, or your daughter had posed in that photograph would you still feel so offended by it?
So Buddhists should not disrespect Buddha images. How is it our concern if Manaj does?
If intent is important, then how can we say that she has disrespected the Buddha image without knowing her intent?
If millions of Thai Buddhists are offended, why are we not hearing from them? Someone please post something that confirms that they are outraged.
If they are outraged about this, how can they possibly feel about tens of thousands of their Buddhist daughters and sons being defiled in the sex trade? I say the bulk of Thais are too busy trying to make a living to worry about something so dumb.
As I pointed out before, there are Buddha images overseeing the most debauched activities that you can imagine that Thais are involved in.
A handful of western Buddhists are outraged. They should give their heads a shake.
Why are we not hearing from lots of Thai Buddhists? Well, probably because the same percentage of them read the English language media as we Westerners read the Thai language media. But, if you want a taste of how people in the old world view it...fine...flip down and read comment after comment...most of which are from the third world: http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/nicki-minaj-please-take-down-your-yellow-bikini-photos-on-08-10-2013-published-on-instagram-showing-your-back-to-a-great-buddha-statue-and-respect-all-religions-and-their-followers
And don't make assumptions about what values the bulk of Thais have. Don't think that what goes on in Pat Pong and Soi Cowboy are what the vast of majority of Thais want to see in their country.
And finally, I will repeat what I have said in this thread several times already -- no one here -- including me -- is outraged. But some of us are concerned and disgusted.
It's no secret that symbols have power, and religious symbols more powerful than most. You might be above such attachment to symbols, but 99.9 percent of humanity feels that insulting the symbol is the same as insulting the worshiper. People are willing to die and worse, kill over symbols.
Even at the beginning of Buddhism, the personal assistant Ananda was put on trial at the first conference for, among other actions, accidentally stepping on Buddha's robe.
There is a rather famous story and koan that Master Seung wrote, "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" that addresses this problem. To paraphrase, I'm in your house and I flick some cigarette ashes on a statue of Buddha and tell you that doesn't bother me one bit, so that means I'm more enlightened than you. I'm free from attachment to objects, unlike you who bow to this statue, so symbols have no power over me. What do you tell this man? Is his behavior wrong? How do you explain his wrong behavior to him?
Or are you this man?
Actually, it was mentioned earlier... but looking at the photo, it is clearly at a swimming pool or resort area. Those are clearly tanning chairs (not meditation cushions! LOL) in the background.
In other words, this woman is not the only bikini clad woman to have posed, lay out in the sun, swim, or whatever at this location. Only this is apparently a celebrity (who I've never even heard of before this thread and still have no idea who she is) who took a photo and it went public. But bikini clad women are within feet of this Buddha statue daily!
It would seem to me that if there is even a problem to address, it is the resort's use of the Buddha statue as decoration by their swimming pool. Obviously the Buddha statue isn't being used for any other purpose. It doesn't matter to me either way-- but I'd at least sympathize more the desire to have the statue removed from the resort.
They certainly are pretty tame compared to what is in the video games that most young people are exposed to daily.
Of course Thais are not paying attention to this. Their media is not covering it because it's no big deal. That petition has 2600 signatures. It's not millions. You could get 26000 signatures overnight on a petition to leave the pictures up, if it was posted in the right place.
I am not assuming that all Thais support the sex trade. I have been all over that country, and choose to believe that most Thais do not support it, although I don't know that for a fact.
And you know it's not just Pat pong and Soi Cowboy. Sadly it's quite widespread in most of the tourist areas.
What I am saying is that if they are not outraged enough to demand a stop to the sex tourism business, why would you assume that they are giving these pictures a second thought.
We can agree that Buddhists should not pose with a Buddha statue in their bathing suits.
Non Buddhists can do what they want.
I understand that we are just sharing opinions here. Not really trying to change anyone's mind.