Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Posit: Female equality has a long way to go in Buddhism
vinlyn
Colorado...for now Veteran
Any thoughts before I present a few of my own?
2
Comments
I recently learned that in Thailand, they are no longer ordaining women monks, and not recognizing the ones already robed. I think that is a real shame. Even the DL said the next DL in line *could* turn out to be a female.
Even online, I notice nearly all of the forums, blogs, and websites about Buddhism are male owned/run and dominated (according to the male/female numbers), by male members.
any religion is just one reflection of that.
I'd start off with the scales. They are simply not made of objective stuff. Equality is a bland, abstract term which exists as a mental construct only.
The measuring tool for "equality" can only exist purely in mathematics. Beyond that realm of pure physics we are left with a superimposed consciousness. And that consciousness is not bland. It is a "loving consciousness," what in Sanskrit is called Satcitananda. In the grossly unenlightened it may be hidden, or covered up by hate (love misdirected) or fear (its extreme negative pole), but that's what our mind consists of. We are always going after what we love in our minds.
But, laying aside most of Sat and Chit, this Bliss (which we feel in our unrealized nature as Love) compels us to love directionally. Either we are drawn toward, away from, or against other objects or persons, etc., according to our inclinations and circumstances.
But even when we are drawn toward others with "love," that love is different for each person or thing. The love one feels for Peter is unique to Peter, the love for Paul for Paul, and that for Mary, unique to Mary, etc.
That said, monks would prefer the things/issues relating to brother monks and the nuns prefer those things relating to their sister nuns, etc.
Nor am I sure that women "catching up with" the ranks of Buddhist teachers would necessarily be desirable, for then it might tilt the other way —as in some mainline Protestant churches in the USA. That might cause an upheaval that might well disturb some fundaments. Now don't @stupid me on this paragraph, anyone. This is not the gist of this here post of mine. Hint! This is a side-point. (I try not to use the @member function, to protest the nitpicking that people sometimes do, ignoring all your well-intention "offering." Not all words in a post are of equal value, but people do tend to listen for their own issues.)
For me the real issue is whether the Teachers and the followers are the Real Thing. That's all that matters. But, on the other hand, I do find women much richer in Practical Wisdom than men are. Aristotle taught about the two branches of wisdom, Theoretical Wisdom and Practical Wisdom. I've long observed how much more Practical Wisdom Women have than men. Of course, saints and avatars such as Buddha, Sri Ramakrishna, and Jesus exemplify practical wisdom, but their male followers tended not to "catch" that gentle breeze.
Makes sense to me.
BTW, that is the gist of this post.
Monastic rules that dictate a nun's behavior towards male counterparts is disgraceful.
Ajahn Brahm was kicked out of his lineage for ordaining nuns in 2009.
MaryAnne's observation about males in positions of authority in Buddhism is right on.
We have a ways to go yet.
on the other hand...the issue is with the person feeling
distracted...and how to deal with that.
What? Women aren't distracted by a whole bunch
of stuff all day long? There are no sacred cows here...
ahem...sorry...but one distraction can't fall in that sort
of catagory all by itself.
Delusions are delusions....from what I understand.
'Every man thinks his burden is the heaviest' -Bob Marley
Well, the ways of the East don't seem unreasonable to me. The monks at the monastery to which I go on retreat sometimes say they feel like they live in a zoo. And although women are welcome visitors, they may not stay overnight. But then, they do have convents for women. Same sort of rules.
Sexual Thoughts distract the Monks from their Spiritual Work. And those who are chiefly homoerotic have to (or should) sublimate that love. For grass to grow perfectly, you have to keep weeds from sprouting.
Even in Greek churches the men are on one side and the women on the other during Divine Liturgy.
What would you say is the approximate ration of male teachers to female teachers of Buddhism in the world? Anything approaching 50-50?
As for the presence of women leading to lustful thoughts (euphemistically referred to as "distractions" in most cases) since when did we men need a woman walking in front of us to make us think of sex? That's just another rationalization. Sex is a desire like any other.
Same song, but with a different beat.
The second part... I agree with...... In a throw myself
at you, kind of way, of course.
So two points: it should be 5050 but the females must have the training.
in this world , hahaha I'll take that 'sorry',
thank you very much, hahaha
Females must have training??? In Thailand -- the country most populated with Buddhists -- females are not allowed to be trained or to be ordained, and even the mae chee status in not recognized by formal Buddhism.
Lust is one of human kinds greatest attatchments. Imagine a whole life as a celibate nun, and then a dude walks in. It dont matter, hed look like brad pitt naked. Even with the robes on. I'm not a girl, but if girls didn't have libidos, strong ones, the species would have died out. The other trick is that, imagine if the guy who walked in was into everything you were into. Anyone who shows up at an ordination is serious about buddhism, It's a match made in heaven.
As far a equal rights goes ... I'm all for it... I'd die for it. But what is happening now is not equal rights. It seems to me that the Feminists (not all women) want greater rights than men. The original women in the movement had a clue, not to mention that their husbands voted on it. But spoiled kids are always reckless, man or woman.
Women have equal rights. There might be a bigot or two with a big mouth. But most of us here have no issue with anything you want to do. We dont think your dumb because your a woman. We dont think you're a whore because you're not a virgin. We dont think you should get paid less, or get stuck with jobs you dont like. We dont smack your butt and make rude comments. We dont force sexual favors. And most of us, would kick the crap out of anyone who did... or at least think about it.
But their are facts of life that are hard for anyone. Jobs can suck, people get sick, people are hatefull. Impermanence, Everything is always falling apart, woman or man. Karma, cause and effect, dosen't stop because your a woman, and it didnt get there because of a man. Delusion is not solely privy to men, nor is it primary in women. We all have it.
I am just pissed, because i'm a good man, and i know many good men, in fact i've never met a bigot. I'm tired of this nonsense, and the effect it has on families and children. Besides, all the old, bigoted men, what did they really want for you? They wanted you to have a nice home, nice kids, plenty of money, time to relax, and whatever else. They essentially gave their wives permanant retirement. You have no work except the house and the kids. That is the only thing they ever wanted to do!!!! Yes their were evil men, and there always will be. But again, before women could vote, the men had to vote about weather or not women could vote. So at least 2/3s of us were for womens rights at that time. And our numbers have only grown.
P.S. I think the wage thing is a bit jacked up (women make 15-20 cents less than men per hour). I think the key is to ask more. If they offer you a raise, they always have more money than they say. Haggle. You dont gotta be an amazonian warrior princess, but a bit of persistance always pays off.
Blessings and peace. This time just for the women.
That's one way to put it....
'No work, except for.....
Oh, hell's bell's...I'm not getting into this
one...hahahaha
"that in a monastery, eventually even the frogs start to look like princes."
Any phenomena can catch you just as any phenomena can be let to pass on it's way.
A wise move my sistah, a wise move indeed....
I'm not sure prejudice is a very apt paradigm here. Perhaps "hangup" at most.
However, the following the "Royal Road" of the would-be arahat entails renouncing sexual involvements. It's really that simple.
As for discrimination, I think that the person-whose-true-calling-is-monkhood-or-nunhood has to be very selective in most matters. Again, I'd call it Wisdom, not discrimination.
Animals are sexual beings. To really dive deep one has to go beyond one's chief inessential animal tendencies, even if only for a season. But in the household of the "non-householders" this season is never quite out of season.
This matter is very clear-cut in many Indian traditions. It's not prejudice, it's what's called following the code and using methods to help one steer clear of obstacles..
If ever there was an obstacle to the spiritual life it is the sexual urge.
chores that never ends........... and all of a sudden, you made it
through a 'retreat'....hehe
Welcome to my life..plus 30 hrs a week working...
Your welcome for the 'retirement' package lololol
In metta,
Raven
Or perhaps it would be better, even wiser and more 'enlightened', if everyone would own their own so-called "uncontrollable urges" and stop blaming the Temptress/ Woman?
Sex is the basic, primal hunger that simply cannot be filled. Unequal in the sexes from what I've seen, a man is almost insatiable. The more he gets, the more he "needs."
The Monk needs to steer himself down the narrow way in this matter.
need to learn 'how to steer'......the setting seems appropriate, in
some places/times/people. I admit that.
Men retreats. Or full monastic, yes.
The deeper thinking of inequality....is something else.
I'll bite.
I chose to fish in all kinds of shitty weather in the winter time rather than stay home and have my wife go out to work. It looked like it would be easier to me. Frankly, there is no way the kids would have had the kind of upbringing that they had if I had been the one keeping house.
When it comes time to divorce, the courts don't see it as me giving my wife anything. They see it as me taking away her opportunity to develop a career. So I pay more.
While none of this is about Buddhism, I would also like to point out that the way women are treated in the west is only part of the story. There are horrible reports coming out of Africa lately about rape of women and girls. Which is nothing new of course.
No offence, @Neither but your post reminded me of the conversations I have routinely with guys who like to complain about how well First Nations people are treated. "We give them money to do nothing and what do they do? Drink it away."
As if we just came over here and started giving them stuff so they wouldn't have to work.
Moreover, in the Episcopal Church women have been ordained priests canonically since 1977 and in the Anglican Church of Canada since 1976. Non-canonically, women have been ordained much longer. Easily found for those interested in an "ordination of women" search on Wikipedia. But all of this is beside the point.
In the post-modern world ancient traditions with long lineages, along with much of their conceptual framework have crumbled somewhat and partly revived in new wineskins, as it were. And of course, "new wine" had to be made and a lot of the old wine discarded by the New Agers. But still, the traditional Western Monastery was cloistered and separated the monks from each other most of the time and was built to accommodate only one gender. Look up Cloister in any good dictionary. I am not conversant so much with the Buddhist traditions, but understand that they too emphasized the spiritual over the mundane.
To call a place where the genders live together and sleep together a monastery is to me like calling all sweet fruits that grow on trees a Peach. Yes, it's true that a peach is a tree fruit, but not all treefruits are Peaches.
It's not a "Monastery": it's an alternative lifestyle refuge.
Just a desire.
check again and I think you'll see most of the male postings here say that there is a equality issue and that it has little basis for logical support.
The rest are from a young flame writting from his parents basement.
It is kind of like saying you have a black friend but you are missing what I am saying. I am not saying that all Buddhists/isms/isists are fair to women. What I am saying is that there is no inherent barrier preventing women's equlity. We don't have to scrap all of Buddhism to fix one thing. Buddhism can be fixed.
It is kind of like saying you have a black friend but you are missing what I am saying. I am not saying that all Buddhists/isms/isists are fair to women. What I am saying is that there is no inherent barrier preventing women's equlity. We don't have to scrap all of Buddhism to fix one thing. Buddhism can be fixed.
Well, first of all, Jeffrey, it seems like you're responding to your own post. That's all your writing there...none of it mine. Or are you trying to clarify your earlier post?
1. No inherent barrier? Mostly in the SE Asian countries, where millions of Buddhists live, there is a brick wall barrier. I don't know about the remainder of Buddhists in Asia.
2. Where have I suggested scrapping Buddhism???????????????????????????????????????
In metta,
Raven
In the East the Orthodox Christian priests have always been allowed to marry. It's only the Bishops (or those aspiring so to be) who may not. The Orthodox Church is actually more adherent to Ancient Practice, although unlike St Paul it will not allow a Bishop to be a man of one wife.
It is a fact that priests and bishops can only be male. However, the church does permit women to participate in the order of the clergy as deaconesses and in monasticism as nuns.
Though never worshiped the Theotokos (Mother of God/Virgin Mary) is the most holy revered saint of the church with several beautiful services throughout the year dedicated to venerate and honor her. Even priests and bishops prostrate before her holy image for she is considered the first Christian, model for both men and women, and mother of all such that every generation shall call her blessed.
And by inherent barrier I meant that there is nothing stopping (in Tibetan Buddhism) the rise of female teachers provided they are trained by an existing teacher. For instance like my Lama who is female and became a teacher.
But never mind
Look at how they beat me
How they threw me down and robed me
Keep these thoughts and live in hate
All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Think and act with a pure mind and goodness will follow you, as the ox that draws the cart.
Look at how they beat me
How they threw me down and robed me
Abandon such thoughts and live in love
Hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love can dispell hate.
So for all of you women, (african americans, homosexuals, etc.) who feel as though men, (whites, heterosexuals, etc.) beat them and robed them. Please know that i am not like that at all, and neither are any of my brothers, sisters, or friends.
And know that the buddha, dharma, and shanga are safe places for you to take refuge.
If you dont believe me, watch the talks from thich naht hanh, and the dalai lama. In the ones i've seen, from the united states, there seem to be more women than men present, and I seem to remeber the dalai lama saying that bringing compassion to the world is up to the women. He talked about growing up with his mother, and the great warmth of spirit that she had, and how important it is that that be cultivated in our world.
Compassion and emptiness is the movie.